Compare defensive cooldowns between Marauder and Tanks

[Scoobings]

This thread sums up my only real problem with mauraders. I don't think their damage is out of control like most people do. Also, neither does BW according to rumor (though I never felt the need to follow that up so maybe it's not true).

 

Their survivability is the problem. In a game of quick TTK, 6 seconds of invincibility is kind of a big deal and it's on a shorter CD than most tanking CDs which kind of blows my mind. On top of that, the get the juggernaut tanking talent (blade ward) and a very similar to powertech shield (20% damage reduction, instead of 25 but it reflects that damage back at the attacker) and that too has a shorter CD.

 

They just have too much when it comes to survivability, imo, and the reason no one thought it was a big deal before is the TTK wasn't so short. Either the TTK needs to go back to where it was or moves that grant near invincibility (guarded by force / resilience) need to be looked at and tweaked. Probably to have a longer CD.

[Aehgo]

LOL Way to not even get the skills right. 50% damage reduciton? 2 min CD?

 

I asked for the cooldowns and thats what I got,Want to put in a correction or to busy loling?

[Aehgo]

This thread sums up my only real problem with mauraders. I don't think their damage is out of control like most people do. Also, neither does BW according to rumor (though I never felt the need to follow that up so maybe it's not true).

 

Their survivability is the problem. In a game of quick TTK, 6 seconds of invincibility is kind of a big deal and it's on a shorter CD than most tanking CDs which kind of blows my mind. On top of that, the get the juggernaut tanking talent (blade ward) and a very similar to powertech shield (20% damage reduction, instead of 25 but it reflects that damage back at the attacker) and that too has a shorter CD.

 

They just have too much when it comes to survivability, imo, and the reason no one thought it was a big deal before is the TTK wasn't so short. Either the TTK needs to go back to where it was or moves that grant near invincibility (guarded by force / resilience) need to be looked at and tweaked. Probably to have a longer CD.

 

I agree Maruaders should have insane damage as they are a DPS Melee class in Medium armor.But their defensive CD put their survivability above tanks,which doesn't make sense..

Edited April 26, 2012 by Aehgo

[aeterno]

This thread sums up my only real problem with mauraders. I don't think their damage is out of control like most people do. Also, neither does BW according to rumor (though I never felt the need to follow that up so maybe it's not true).

 

Their survivability is the problem. In a game of quick TTK, 6 seconds of invincibility is kind of a big deal and it's on a shorter CD than most tanking CDs which kind of blows my mind. On top of that, the get the juggernaut tanking talent (blade ward) and a very similar to powertech shield (20% damage reduction, instead of 25 but it reflects that damage back at the attacker) and that too has a shorter CD.

 

They just have too much when it comes to survivability, imo, and the reason no one thought it was a big deal before is the TTK wasn't so short. Either the TTK needs to go back to where it was or moves that grant near invincibility (guarded by force / resilience) need to be looked at and tweaked. Probably to have a longer CD.

 

This.

[Zarovich]

I compared a marauder to ASSASSINS, not assassin tanks. Last I checked, dps assassins have access to force cloak, vanish, saber ward, and stealth buddy.

 

Now compare a Marauder to a DPS Powertech Pyrotech for survivability. Granted they both hit really hard and they both are melee fighters but Energy Shield ( 25% damage reduction for 12 sec 2 Min CD) Does not compare to all the Defense CDs that a Marauder get. The 5-7% in Armor mitigation between Heavy and Medium armor does not make up for this. Once the Marauder charges a PT Pyro and snares the PT, its game over at that point because of the Defensive CDs. On my server the good PT's don't last long with the good marauders around, they drop quick and Energy Shield/Heavy Armor is not enough to save them from a well played Marauder. But the same Marauder has enough Defensive Cds to outlast the PT Pyrotech.

 

I didn't count Kolto Overload as a Defensive CD since 15% Hp over 10 secs with a 3 min CD will hardly stop you from dieing once a good Marauder is on you. if the Marauder is Anniliation speced, I'm sure they can come close to matching this heal with their crits and their heals isn't based on a 3 min CD either.

 

Everyone saids to save your stun for Undying Rage but if you don't use your stun while snared by them and getting Ravaged, your as good as dead then too. So now the issue becomes, you need a stun for Ravage (because any decent marauder will snare you after the charge) and you need a stun for Undying Rage, but doesn't Cloak of Pain require a stun to since when its up you can't be attacking them but they sure are cutting into you. So that makes at least 3 stuns to control a Marauder before he dices you up.

 

One option that classes have to create space that PT do not get is knockbacks, but that makes since PT's are considered melee fighters just without all the defensive cooldowns that Juggs/Marauders get. But then again maybe it doesn't make sense since Assassins are melee fighters too with an AOE knockback.

 

Anyway my point is marauders should not be the top DPS class with the best/most Defensive CD while wearing medium armor to boot. The amount and quality of these Cds with their damage output is not much for any class to handle.

[HurricaneXXIV]

20% less damange for a sent and marauder still makes them take more damage than a tank. The only time a maurauder or sent takes less damage is when guarded by the force is up.

[Aehgo]

Guarded by the force-2 min Cooldown-5 Rage cost-Only Usable when OVER 50% health-stops 100% of damage for 6 seconds-Heals reduced by 99% for 12 seconds.

Thats a dps cooldown in my opinion

[Zarovich]

20% less damange for a sent and marauder still makes them take more damage than a tank. The only time a maurauder or sent takes less damage is when guarded by the force is up.

 

Your forgetting a very important piece tho, a Marauders 20% reduction bonus (Cloak of Pain) can last up to 30 sec with a 60 sec CD while also working as a damage shield. Its a lose/lose situation for the guy fighting the marauder, do you keeping attacking him so he gets the full 30 secs out of it (if the fight lasts the long) or do you waste a stun on him plus stop attacking while he's stun, or you stop attacking and let him beat on you for 6 seconds while you wait for Cloak of Pain to expire? All of these are win/win situations for the marauder.

 

Also you only mentioned two of the marauders Defensive CDs, they have more then just those two.

[celebrei]

its because we(non marauder players) are bad apparently (according to marauder players)

 

No it's because they are OP even if they refuse to admit it deep down they know they are, I know many players whose main characters were other classes and they leveled Marauder alts only to find out that a mediumly-well geared marauder can out tank and out dps a full BM/War Hero geared Assassin and Juggernaut, its time that The Sith Marauder and Jedi Sentinel Class be nerfed, two lightsabers should not be better than one, nerf them now!

[Blloodbane]

I am still failing to see ALL these marauders in a WZ...

 

In fact I am still seeing mostly the same things..

 

Oh you most be talking about all those lower level alts that are judging... LOL ok... they will learn more about the class....

[Aehgo]

I am still failing to see ALL these marauders in a WZ...

 

In fact I am still seeing mostly the same things..

 

Oh you most be talking about all those lower level alts that are judging... LOL ok... they will learn more about the class....

 

I joined a match a few days ago where my team was

Sentinal x7 and a Sage((me))(Also this is 50 pvp))

I was dps,we won a game of civil war in a matter of minutes,the triple cap was so easy to maintain with the speed buffs and the fact 2 sentinals can guard a node for atleast a minute,which was enough time for help to get their with speed buffs.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Aehgo

[HurricaneXXIV]

Your forgetting a very important piece tho, a Marauders 20% reduction bonus (Cloak of Pain) can last up to 30 sec with a 60 sec CD while also working as a damage shield. Its a lose/lose situation for the guy fighting the marauder, do you keeping attacking him so he gets the full 30 secs out of it (if the fight lasts the long) or do you waste a stun on him plus stop attacking while he's stun, or you stop attacking and let him beat on you for 6 seconds while you wait for Cloak of Pain to expire? All of these are win/win situations for the marauder.

 

Also you only mentioned two of the marauders Defensive CDs, they have more then just those two.

 

You are missing the point. They can use every cool down they have. Other than for the 6 seconds that GBF is up they will still be taking more damage than a tank. Should you never attack tanks? Sents are very squishy and they have less hp than tanks.

 

Your issue isn't a sent issue, it's a game issue. When hard targets like non tanking pyrotechs and tracer spammers lost surviabity they never gained a way to form seperation. It's the same issue sorcs have with sents.

[celebrei]

I joined a match a few days ago where my team was

Sentinal x7 and a Sage((me))(Also this is 50 pvp))

I was dps,we won a game of civil war in a matter of minutes,the triple cap was so easy to maintain with the speed buffs and the fact 2 sentinals can guard a node for atleast a minute,which was enough time for help to get their with speed buffs.

 

See, even if a team of marauders/sentinels are in favor of you the general observation is they are overpowered and needs to be nerfed.

[HurricaneXXIV]

7 Sents and 1 Mage wins?

 

I hate how the game forces you to play the whole match even though the other team only has four people in the zone too.

Edited April 26, 2012 by HurricaneXXIV

[Vishuz]

ITT:

 

People who don't know, or are conveniently forgetting there are multiple types of damage and each defensive CD are specific in what they screen out. "Invulnerablity" is a MYTH. Start reading the tool tips, learn how and when to counter with what ability / attack.

 

The mechanics in this game are much more complex than many people are trying to make them out to be, they cry about PvP balance without bothering to understand the core game functions.

 

Pro-Tip: go fight some Elite Mobs with your pet dismissed, you'll have to learn how and when to use your whole toolset very quickly, your PvP skill will improve dramatically.

 

 

By all means keep screaming for more Nerfs, BW keeps trying to deliver what you are asking for, you guys keep asking for a dumber and dumber game.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Vishuz

[basketballbum]

I'm curious as to why I can down most tanks in half or less the time it takes to get a Marauder down ((or get killed myself)).

Aren't tanks supposed to have the best survivability?

 

 

 

 

Jugg:

1. Saber Ward

2. Immortal

3. (the 30% semi-heal)

4. Heavy Armor

 

Assassin:

1. 6% heals every 15 secs

2. Deflect

3. Force Shroud

4. Heavy Armor

 

Powertechs

1. Shield

2.kolto overload

3. Lets count the accuracy debuff to be semi fair...

4. Heavy Armor

 

Marauders

1. saber ward (its both Deflection + PT shield in one cooldown...)

2. Cloak of Pain (20% damage reduction pretty much ALWAYS up)

3. Obfuscate (Remember we counted accuracy debuff

4. Heals (2% heals every crit by far better heals than the Assassin)

5.Force Cammouflage

6.Undying rage (99% ALL damage reduction!)

7.Medium Armor

 

Yes marauders have great defensive cds but if you are going to post them, post all their effects and cds as well.

 

Saber ward- exact same as the juggs saber ward, melee and ranged defense is raised by 50%, force and tech defense is raised by 25%, lasts 12 seconds on a 3 minute cooldown. In a match lasting about 15 minutes this can only be activated 5 times and that is if it's popped everytime it comes off cd and not used in the situation

 

cloak of pain- marrauder only, cloak of pain reduces damage by 20% and reciprocates a small amount of damage (around 200 at end game) to the attacker. This ability lasts 6 seconds and is on a 1 minute cd. This can last longer if the people keep on attacking the marauder, by attacking the marauder you activate the reciprocate part and refresh the 6 seconds. This cannot last more than 30 seconds and it cannot reciprocate more than every 1.5 seconds. This means that this ability could theoretically be up half of a match max if someone is continuously attacking them everytime they pop cloak of pain.

 

Obfuscate- reduces melee and ranged accuracy by 90% for 6 seconds on a 1 minute cd. Most attacks though do not count as melee or ranged but rather as force or tech. A good player will negate this skill entirely by only using force or tech attacks for the 6 seconds.

 

Heals- first a marrauder needs 30 stacks of fury to activate this and that can be hard to accumulate in itself especially if a marrauder is being focused, once a marrauder has 30 stacks they can pop a skill called berserk which increases bleeds critical chance to 100%, for the next 6 critical bleeds the party is healed for 1% of max health for each bleed tick, not 2% and not every crit.

 

Force camo- lasts 4 seconds, 45 second cd, 30% increase to movement speed, 50% damage reduction, ends on any damage

 

Undying rage-99% damage reduction for 5 seconds. costs 50% of health, 1 minute 15 second cd

 

Medium armor- meh armor really doesn't mean a whole lot in this game

 

Now that all the descriptions are out, there are adjustments to be made without killing the class. Get rid of force camo and obfuscate. While these shouldn't cause much trouble, in the heat of battle when people aren't paying attention to whats going on around them this could help a marrauder low on health escape a sure death. These can be removed. Make armor mean something, or shield generators for tanks mean something. Currently there is not a distinguishable difference in armor and I forget the exact damage types but the tanks shields do not apply to all damage types. When defensive cds are active reduce incoming healing. In the case of undying rage it should be reduced to 0 for the duration at least, possibly longer since this is supposed to be a last resort skill.

 

Marrauders do need some form of defensive skills, they are often right in the enemies face waving two bats at them which will draw the enemies attention/focus much more than a sniper or a bounty hunter would. Because of this they need something so they don't die within the first 4 seconds of a fight.

[MMOgamer]

I fight tank juggs all the time and they last WAY LONGER then I do on my Sent.

[Kehtal]

 

 

Marauders

1. saber ward (its both Deflection + PT shield in one cooldown...)

2. Cloak of Pain (20% damage reduction pretty much ALWAYS up)

3. Obfuscate (Remember we counted accuracy debuff

4. Heals (2% heals every crit by far better heals than the Assassin)

5.Force Cammouflage

6.Undying rage (99% ALL damage reduction!)

7.Medium Armor

 

1. Necessary. That's all there is to it.

2. See #1.

3. Whatever, you can have it.

4. Misinformation like this is why I hate people like you.

5. Lasts 4 seconds.

6. Costs 50% of your current HP and lasts 5 seconds.

7. You're kidding.... Right?

Edited April 26, 2012 by Kehtal

[Kuupie]

Having a lot of defensive cooldowns doesn't exactly make or break a class.

Coming from years of PVP in various online/MMO games, I claim that the combination of powerful cooldowns always needs to be combined with very high skill cap to do high dps.

 

Problem with marauders is that their cooldowns don't really need consideration:

"Am I taking damage at all?" -> Cloak of Pain

"Am I taking alot of physical damage?" -> Saber Ward

"Am I about to die?" -> Undying Rage

"Am I about to die again?" -> Force Camo

 

Defensive CDs, especially Cloak of Pain are on too short CD to require consideration when to use.

 

Add on top the not-so-complex DPS mechanics to keep up relatively high dps even as lower skilled player, we got a problem. Add very good self-sustain in annihilation spec and its GG in especially in very highly skilled pvp.

 

My suggestion to address marauders/sentinels is to add similar negative effects to their CDs as Assassins/Operatives have:

Undying Rage -> 100% healing decrease

Force Camo -> 100% healing decrease (could be avoided with talent like other vanishes)

Cloak of Pain -> maybe a small healing decrease?

 

I don't see a solo marauder as a problem. He might kill me depending on the situation. So can many other classes. The problem with marauders is that if they have a good healer with them, they can outlast any other class and that shouldn't in my opinion be the case when it comes to pure dps class.

 

Just my three-fiddy.

[Vetril]

I joined a match a few days ago where my team was

Sentinal x7 and a Sage((me))(Also this is 50 pvp))

I was dps,we won a game of civil war in a matter of minutes,the triple cap was so easy to maintain with the speed buffs and the fact 2 sentinals can guard a node for atleast a minute,which was enough time for help to get their with speed buffs.

 

Lol.

 

I played a WZ a few days ago but everyone on my team dropped except for me, so I soloed it but I still won cause I one shot everyone and I had speed buff always up.

 

See I can come up with stories too.

 

Yes marauders have great defensive cds but if you are going to post them, post all their effects and cds as well.

 

Saber ward- exact same as the juggs saber ward, melee and ranged defense is raised by 50%, force and tech defense is raised by 25%, lasts 12 seconds on a 3 minute cooldown. In a match lasting about 15 minutes this can only be activated 5 times and that is if it's popped everytime it comes off cd and not used in the situation

 

Actually the juggernaut's better. For the first 2 seconds, a Juggernaut's Saber Ward gives him 100% damage reduction.

 

cloak of pain- marrauder only, cloak of pain reduces damage by 20% and reciprocates a small amount of damage (around 200 at end game) to the attacker. This ability lasts 6 seconds and is on a 1 minute cd. This can last longer if the people keep on attacking the marauder, by attacking the marauder you activate the reciprocate part and refresh the 6 seconds. This cannot last more than 30 seconds and it cannot reciprocate more than every 1.5 seconds. This means that this ability could theoretically be up half of a match max if someone is continuously attacking them everytime they pop cloak of pain.

 

Puts him slightly behind of a juggernaut using Soresu - you usually have 22% damage reduction, ends up with 42% damage reduction, but no shield. IE, juggernaut still takes less damage.

 

Obfuscate- reduces melee and ranged accuracy by 90% for 6 seconds on a 1 minute cd. Most attacks though do not count as melee or ranged but rather as force or tech. A good player will negate this skill entirely by only using force or tech attacks for the 6 seconds.

 

This is completely accurate.

 

Heals- first a marrauder needs 30 stacks of fury to activate this and that can be hard to accumulate in itself especially if a marrauder is being focused, once a marrauder has 30 stacks they can pop a skill called berserk which increases bleeds critical chance to 100%, for the next 6 critical bleeds the party is healed for 1% of max health for each bleed tick, not 2% and not every crit.

 

This only if they are annihilation. Carnage reduces the GCD of Massacre to 1 second.

 

Force camo- lasts 4 seconds, 45 second cd, 30% increase to movement speed, 50% damage reduction, ends on any damage

 

Can be talented for 6 seconds and 50% extra speed I think (it's not in the Carnage tree, but up in the Annihilation tree, so I'm not sure) using 2 points. When sentinels pull this on me I'm usually able to track them down. I normally use it to **** or to evade Undying Rage.

 

Undying rage-99% damage reduction for 5 seconds. costs 50% of health, 1 minute 15 second cd

 

Accurate.

 

I don't see a solo marauder as a problem. He might kill me depending on the situation. So can many other classes. The problem with marauders is that if they have a good healer with them, they can outlast any other class and that shouldn't in my opinion be the case when it comes to pure dps class.

 

Er, you can say the same about virtually every class out there.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Vetril

[Aetou]

A 99% healing debuff on Undying Rage and a 2 minute CD combined with a 99% healing debuff on Camo (to bring it vaguelyin line with the stealth classes' in-combat stealth escape tricks) would be enough I think.

[Xerain]

I'm curious as to why I can down most tanks in half or less the time it takes to get a Marauder down ((or get killed myself)).

Aren't tanks supposed to have the best survivability?

 

 

 

 

Jugg:

1. Saber Ward

2. Immortal

3. (the 30% semi-heal)

4. Heavy Armor

 

Assassin:

1. 6% heals every 15 secs

2. Deflect

3. Force Shroud

4. Heavy Armor

 

Powertechs

1. Shield

2.kolto overload

3. Lets count the accuracy debuff to be semi fair...

4. Heavy Armor

 

Marauders

1. saber ward (its both Deflection + PT shield in one cooldown...)

2. Cloak of Pain (20% damage reduction pretty much ALWAYS up)

3. Obfuscate (Remember we counted accuracy debuff

4. Heals (2% heals every crit by far better heals than the Assassin)

5.Force Cammouflage

6.Undying rage (99% ALL damage reduction!)

7.Medium Armor

 

Assassins get 6% heals every 15 seconds? what uuhhh you need to reread harnessed darkness and know you can pop off a healing lightning much quicker than 15 seconds. Also assassins saber charge has like a 2% heal attached to it.

 

Cloak of Pain is actually on cool down more than it's up TBH.

 

Juggs saber ward is the exact same as ours btw.

 

Oh and all three of them get a chance to shield attacks, why isn't that up there?

[Vetril]

A 99% healing debuff on Undying Rage and a 2 minute CD combined with a 99% healing debuff on Camo (to bring it vaguelyin line with the stealth classes' in-combat stealth escape tricks) would be enough I think.

 

Will Camo give me permanent stealth till I attack again then? Deal.

[Shardas]

[...]

Assassin:

1. 6% heals every 15 secs

2. Deflect

3. Force Shroud

4. Heavy Armor

[...]

 

What? Assassins can wear heavy armor? Really? Or is that a mistake? Because if it isn't I'll try out a tank Assassin.

[Derian]

Im not going to say the Marauder self heal sucks, but you are crazy if you think it's better than Dark Charge. (plus our heal isn't after every crit. only crits from burns). Edited April 27, 2012 by Derian