Stash Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 I'l start this post by saying that in my opinion you’re not going to be able to have a decent Open World PvP with Expertise "in its current form". To that end Expertise need to change, in some way that will satisfy both the PvP community as well as allow the PvE community to compete and encourage them to be on the open battleground. I do agree that the PvP folk (of whom I am one) need to have something that keeps the high end gear raiders from dominating the PvP fields, but I also think that unless something is changed to encourage those very same folk to enter the Open world PvP zones, those zones will be very empty. Now as I understand expertise is simply a bonus to damage against other players, and a negative to damage received by players. With equal expertise opponents effectively canceling each other's bonus. This is possible to simulate to some degree through the use of the power and defense stats. If Expertise were changed to give a dual bonus to both stats (similar to players main stat, i.e. strength/willpower/cunning/aim), with current soft and hard caps to remain. Each point of expertise would still give a bonus to damage given and a negative to damage received. The degree that the amount would effect to those two stats would have to be worthwhile to acquire without making the +power and +Defense worthless on their own as well. Serous testing would need to be done to figure out the value to each of those stats, and/or more stats affected. (Crit and surge both would be of value as well) Say 1 point of Expertise gives .5 to power and .5 defense, 1000 expertise would net 500 to both, thus allowing that person to hit harder as well as deflect/dodge that much more. Yet someone who was to stack power only (750-1000) would be able to hit harder than the expertise but would lack the defensive bonus. With the current Mod system this would also encourage even more customization of gear, and if the items with +Expertise were PvP only acquirable would encourage more folks to PvP and customize just how they want. It could also open up even more economical possibilities (selling mods on the GTN) as well as more crafting possibilities (+Expertise mods and augments). On to open world PvP and you might understand why the change. There really are only a handful of games out there that did open world PvP right. Foremost among them is the early (before Atlantis) Dark Age of Camelot, with the multiple keeps on multiple maps. SWTOR has the perfect basis for replicating that system, Planets. By setting up a warzone on a planet sized area map and placing "Bases" in various spots on the map you could effectively spread the PvP community out, making a zerg less of a value over well coordinated groups. With multiple planets, this would spread out the community even more. By using the same base map ,with very little differences, as the PvE world (similar to the Taris/Balmora Republic/Empire planet differences), variety and uniqueness of maps could be maintained. Also these way planets can be added at later points without too much trouble for existing planets or as new PvE planets are created. Transition from your ship to the planet would give you the option to go to either the PvP version or the PvE version, similar to the just added transition to your ship from a planets shuttle. In general I would keep the first bases fairly generic. I would give defenders spawn able defense turrets, as well as attacker’s spawn able offensive turrets. With either a limit within a certain area around the base, or at specific points (aka Warhammer). I would also make the front opening (entrance) to be deflector shielded with a special turbo laser cannon needed to drop the shield. I would make crafters necessary to the building of these weapons as well as maintaining the defense of the keep. (Slicers can increase weapon damage for a short time, or base shield strength. Bioanalays/cyber is needed to resupply/repair base shields/energy. Various crafter (Synthweaver/Atrifice/Armormec/etc) skills needed to build various parts to the various weapons. aka DAOC) This way everyone has a possibility to contribute to the war effort. Encouragement of the open world PvP would be simple enough, give the side that owns the most bases a 10% bonus to credits and xp (including Legacy xp, and later Guild xp if ever added). Even the PvE community would be encouraged to head out and capture a few bases before a raid or night of hard modes with this. By also adding special crafting nodes (material that cannot be gotten via missions) in all the PvP areas, crafters would be encouraged to roam the battlefields. Later on down the road other things could be added into the Open world PvP. Legacy giving you the ability to call in a air strike, or make field weapon construction quicker. Special 2 person hover cars with mounted weapons or personal walkers. (attainable only via PvP condemnations). Guild claiming of bases. The possibilities are almost It is feasible to build a system that would not only cater to everyone but would be for the most part enjoyable to most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Eternal- Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Open world pvp is nonexistant on pvp servers which is an utlimate fail. Just the basic addition of adding commendations, valor, etc for killing a player open world would start up some real open world pvp but for some reason BW won't even do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllbarcodelll Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 (edited) deleted.... no point Edited April 26, 2012 by lllbarcodelll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMunny Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Instanced PvP, and PvE encounters killed open world PvP. You cannot expect world PvP to thrive when you never have to leave a safe zone such as fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razot Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 They just need to baseline the stat so even a pve guy can go buy some recruit gear and join in some kinda of open world objective and really compete. Add a small primary stat increase to each tier in PVP gear and be done with it. As the better PVE gear gets the more they can baseline expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhen-Ghar Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Open world pvp is nonexistant on pvp servers which is an utlimate fail. Just the basic addition of adding commendations, valor, etc for killing a player open world would start up some real open world pvp but for some reason BW won't even do that. the reason BW doesn't do this is to keep the greifers down. I remember when the "honor" system was first implemented in the game we shall not name. The first two months of that on a pvp server , our guild got nothing done endgame wise, as we ended up having to escort our lower lvl members who were trying to level everywhere, until they finaly nerfed the gains from killing lower lvl folks. You want open world pvp? do it like DAoC and War did it. Don't open the doors to griefers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iboga Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 I'm all for encouraging WPvP, but with the massive population imbalances of factions I would assume it wouldn't work so well... Nice ideas though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDutch Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Instanced PvP, and PvE encounters killed open world PvP. You cannot expect world PvP to thrive when you never have to leave a safe zone such as fleet. This. Although I've noticed this in several games, I remember shortly after WAR came out... people complaining about running the same BG over and over each bracket, yet never leaving a quest hub to try to find something else. It has to do with incentives too, but ultimately it's like trying to discourage people from using a exp/gold/gear gumball machine. People will follow the path of least resistance even if they aren't enjoying themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManaaniWanderer Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 I could support this, and totally opening the world to PvP between factions anywhere at anytime is not the answer if the current PvP flag is removed as there is no system to prevent 50's from going to low level areas and just killing every play from the opposite faction they find. Now if doing so would summon a shuttle with several lvl50 elites for each attacking player then maybe this could work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrownofGold Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Or we could just remove Expertise altogether and that be the end of it... Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uber_the_Goober Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Open world pvp is nonexistant on pvp servers which is an utlimate fail. Just the basic addition of adding commendations, valor, etc for killing a player open world would start up some real open world pvp but for some reason BW won't even do that. Seems like somebody wasn't here at launch. Ever heard of Ilum kill farming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razamatazz Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Or we could just remove Expertise altogether and that be the end of it... Problem solved. Or just add it everywhere, boost all gear to max expertise and level 72 armoring, mods, enhancements and augs, that way everybody is even. OK, yeah, that does sound ridiculous huh? What if we just add enough bolster everywhere so that you can just compete,but in Ops it bugs out for the first month or two and makes PvP gear better than PvE. No, that would be ridiculously unfair. Maybe make it so tthere's no expertise but PvP gear has equal stats to PvE that way you can PvP if your a PvE'r and you don't have to do PvP to become geared for it, no getting roflstomped in PvP zones until your geared enough to compete. Well, the PvE'r crowd would likely (and justifiably) be up in arms about that. How about we grow up, take our lumps (like I am right now) and gear up, slowly maybe, but surely. Are you going to get trounced some times? Yeah, but use your head, work with your team, know that your at a disadvantage and work around that, develop skills to compensate until you get the gear. After all, how many MMO's aren't about gear? GW's, that's what I can think of. You don't get better without work, so work at it. And, uhhh, Necro! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brunner_Venda Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) Blah blah blah. More PvE players want their $hit mega raid gear to kill players with conqueror PVP gear in overworld. They need to stop posting this crap, I'm tired of reading it. How warm of a reception would I receive if I said, "boost PVP gear to level 72 for nightmare raids!" In the damn operations forum? I swear, these PVE carebears were handed bolster, now they want it all. Tl;Dr There is no expertise dilemma. Just PVE players crying. Edited July 7, 2013 by Brunner_Venda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarronWasteland Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) While it is really funny 3 shot killing PVE'ers in open world PVP it does get boring after a while. I think that open world PVP is the best. Back in the day on Sunrunner in SWG we had great open world PVP. Instance based PVP is barley adequate at best. After thinking about this issue I agree with some posters here that we should dump expertise and make the PVP gear on par with the PVE gear, just make it 2 paths to grind the gear, PVP or PVE. Doing this you get more carebears in PVP and you would get more of the PVP'ers doing OPS and such. I think it would be a win/win. I mean PVE is the easiest thing in the world. It might take a run or two to get past a certain OPS mission but once you figure it out PVE is just sleep walking, video game style. Edited July 7, 2013 by BarronWasteland Spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brunner_Venda Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 While it is really funny 3 shot killing PVE'ers in open world PVP it does get boring after a while. I think that open world PVP is the best. Back in the day on Sunrunner in SWG we had great open world PVP. Instance based PVP is barley adequate at best. After thinking about this issue I agree with some posters here that we should dump expertise and make the PVP gear on par with the PVE gear, just make it 2 paths to grind the gear, PVP or PVE. Doing this you get more carebears in PVP and you would get more of the PVP'ers doing OPS and such. I think it would be a win/win. I mean PVE is the easiest thing in the world. It might take a run or two to get past a certain OPS mission but once you figure it out PVE is just sleep walking, video game style. I've heard the same argument. The problem is that the PVE content requires players to do damage and put up healing numbers that would be completely out of line in PVP. PVE gear is needed to fight a sandbag elite mob with 800K hit points. Thus, we get two sets of gear to balance the two completely different games. PS: with bolster, it's not exactly hard to get a partisan set. Lots of whining about nothing. Most of the people I find looking for OW PVP fights are wearing at least a partisan set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarronWasteland Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 I've heard the same argument. The problem is that the PVE content requires players to do damage and put up healing numbers that would be completely out of line in PVP. PVE gear is needed to fight a sandbag elite mob with 800K hit points. Thus, we get two sets of gear to balance the two completely different games. PS: with bolster, it's not exactly hard to get a partisan set. Lots of whining about nothing. Most of the people I find looking for OW PVP fights are wearing at least a partisan set. I have full partisan sets on almost all my lvl 55. I am not complaining that they are hard to get. I am agreeing that open world PVP is the best kind of PVP but it is a bit of a joke. When I can 3 or 4 shot a PVE'er its pretty boring after a while. Removing expertise would be a short term issue but a long term solution to open world PVP. And would help bring in PVP'ers to PVE which I do very little of right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhalDrogoe Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Let's implement bolster in open world! Hopefully the bolster in Ilum for the next gree event won't give expertise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islander Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Blah blah blah. More PvE players want their $hit mega raid gear to kill players with conqueror PVP gear in overworld. They need to stop posting this crap, I'm tired of reading it. How warm of a reception would I receive if I said, "boost PVP gear to level 72 for nightmare raids!" In the damn operations forum? I swear, these PVE carebears were handed bolster, now they want it all. Tl;Dr There is no expertise dilemma. Just PVE players crying. Good summary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MahneWarrior Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 (edited) Real problem to open world pvp on PvP servers is the fleet, and planets have WAY too many safe zones. Either blow up fleet, or get rid of safe zones, it is a pvp server after all. Also remove guards, leave it up to the players to defend their own on pvp servers. Edited July 8, 2013 by MahneWarrior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachryphage Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Instanced PvP, and PvE encounters killed open world PvP. You cannot expect world PvP to thrive when you never have to leave a safe zone such as fleet. This. I've been playing MMOs since they were text based and i've seen it over and over. Open world and instanced PvP can't coexist. It's impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP_Legatus Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I'm all for encouraging WPvP, but with the massive population imbalances of factions I would assume it wouldn't work so well... Nice ideas though... It works perfectly fine in gree areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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