Expertise - the Debate Thread, Place your Vote!

[DkSharktooth]

It Is Needed.

[DarthKhaos]

Creedys I've been saying this for a while. The thing a lot of people keep forgetting when they bring up the glory days of game X or Y was that there were no PvP gear. The only gear was PvE gear so once you were the top dog PvEr you had the advantage. With the introduction of the ability to achieve gear through PvP the status que needed to change but this is something they haven't grasped.

[DarkHelsing]

I think you're mixing things up here. BioWare has not forced players to PvP OR PvE. They can do both if they want. If they wish to PvP there is a path for that and if you wish to PvE there is a path for that also. There is no "God" path to allow for both. Jack of all and all that stuff. I know players who raid 3 nights and PvP 3 and who knows what they do on the 7th. Some PvP only to do the daily and PvE the rest. They make progress in PvP (at a slower pace) and Progress in PvE (at a faster pace) yet they are not forced to do anything they don't want to do. THAT is what BioWare meant. A player is not forced to do something they don't want to get something else. If they only want to PvP then they don't feel like they have to PvE to be able to PvP to their max potential and vice versa. The thing you are proposing will make players feel like they have to do both in order to keep up.

 

IMO that is WRONG!

 

My statement is pretty accurate. What you state above here, is no different than the Light Side/Dark Side progression. You have the choice to pick one or the other, but if you pick both you are punished by not being rewarded the same as if you had dedicated your effort to full one side or the other. And that's what you are describing here in your quote.

 

BW publicly claimed that they didn't want to force players down one path or another, that players the bounced between would be rewarded equally as one that dedicates down a single path.

 

Nothing mixed up, that is a straight claim from BW in one of their pre Patch 1.2 videos here on this site.

[Dinochrom]

Just get rid of this Expertise stat. This is not Modern Warfare.

[DarkHelsing]

As I noted, this is not important, but since you did not read what I said closely, just because you have a certain percentage of a population does not make your survey valid. As an overexaggerated example, what if I polled the population on their favorite companion character, but only males responded? Do you think the results would be skewed even if I got 10% of the community to vote? This is my point. You need a REPRESENTATIVE sample of the population, which was the point of my argument that you skimmed over.

 

I didn’t skim over anything. If you polled a population, first you would need to know the average size of the population, then you would need to average a couple variables, then you get your poll size need to represent the larger base.

 

Look, if polls didn’t work, BW themselves wouldn’t be using them on these boards to figure out their next moves on World PvP. Fact is, the polls do work, and BW knows this, and they are using them as well to make game wide choices.

 

Sample Polling works, if you think otherwise, well, that’s your choice I guess.

 

 

Not true. All bolster does is take my attack and put it on par with that ability at 50, nothing more. What you are suggesting is a completely different system that would do EXACTLY what expertise does already. What your true suggestion would be is to put expertise on all gear and have it be completely inactive during PVE. This would leave expertise in game and just call it something else in terms of the devs' abilitiy to control PVP without affecting PVE (which I am not opposed to as far as giving the devs control still is concerned).

 

 

I know what Bolster does, I clearly stated that “it is capable” not “this is what it currently effects”. Remember, anything dealing with Expertise being gone is hypothetical because Expertise isn’t gone.

 

And I have suggested putting Expertise on all gear and rendering it useless during PvE, or even using it during PvE as a way to buff down or buff up mods.

 

Expertise is still needed and still isn't going anywhere.

 

I'm sure this is an accurate statement. Players will continue to cancel their accounts, and this game will be f2p soon... they already gave out a free month, if they don't do something quick, they're sunk. Just look at Que times now. Expertise may be getting the brunt of my dislike, but there's still something very wrong with the game be it Expertise or not, and the Que times are a direct reflection of this.

[DarthKhaos]

To be honest I don't know the deal with PvE but with PvP LS/DS means jack squat. And with the removal of the alignment restrictions for crystals it matters less. The only thing to my knowledge that uses it is relics while leveling but I could be wrong with the PvE stuff.

[DarkHelsing]

updated

[DarkHelsing]

To be honest I don't know the deal with PvE but with PvP LS/DS means jack squat. And with the removal of the alignment restrictions for crystals it matters less. The only thing to my knowledge that uses it is relics while leveling but I could be wrong with the PvE stuff.

 

They removed the alignment restrictions because of what I was saying. They wanted players to have the freedom of choice to not be forced down any one single avenue as the best way to get gear. They wanted players to have the choice to flip flop back and forth as they wanted. Same with BioChem and CyberTech for crew skills, those two crew skills are the two to choose if you PvP, BW stated they didn't want to force players into choices, so they were going to make the other crew skills more viable.

 

BW stresses they want to give players the freedom of choice to jump back and forth and not be punished into having to focus on one thing in order to properly gear yourself... yet Ohlen clearly states you must pick PvE or PvP at level 50, and you are not free to flip flop freely back and forth without penalty.

[DarkDruidSS]

I'm sure this is an accurate statement. Players will continue to cancel their accounts, and this game will be f2p soon... they already gave out a free month, if they don't do something quick, they're sunk. Just look at Que times now. Expertise may be getting the brunt of my dislike, but there's still something very wrong with the game be it Expertise or not, and the Que times are a direct reflection of this.

 

Most people aren't quiting because of expertise. They are quitting because 1.2 was a huge let down and rated WZs are STILL not released or even mentioned to be coming in the immediate future. 1.3 has been announced and there are very few if any PvP updates in the patch. It is mostly another Legacy patch, but at least this time some of the legacy stuff will be useful to alts who do PvP.

 

People are leaving because Ilum was gutted and there isn't an announcement of what will replace it or even when it will be replaced. If large scale PvP was your thing then you are also leaving because everyone realizes that the engine can't support large scale PvP.. which is why Ilum was gutted to begin with.

 

People are leaving because there is very little open world PvP going on at any given time... even if you had full servers there are only a select few planets that would have PvP even on PvP enabled servers... which is hilarious.

 

People are leaving because of people leaving. We have a ton of dead servers now. There has been zero announcement on when cross server match making will come out and also zero announcement of when server merges might be a possibility.

 

People are leaving because of the lack of preceived balance and the fact that BW lacks the communication to give us insight to what they invision as balance. What we see are buffs to classes that were already very strong like Marauder and Snipers... I'm not getting into a nerf war here... I said perceived balance... It gets thrown out when people see perceived strong classes getting more buffs.

 

People are leaving because BW straight up lied about how much PvP would be in the game. Almost 6 months later people are tired of waiting for them to deliver when other new games are coming out like TERA, GW2 and D3 just to name a few.

 

Expertise is so far down on the list of why people would leave that it almost doesn't matter. Most PvPers are used to a PvP stat... while we may not like it... we are used to it and expertise isn't something we would leave over.

[DarkDruidSS]

Actually if you want to look at a PvP function that would cause people to quit.. I think the Resolve issue causes more people to quit that expertise would and a lot of that is just like expertise... people don't understand how resolve works and they think it is completely broken.

 

Resolve might not be the best way to deal with CC.. but it's not broken and once you learn how it works you can take full advantage of it in a 1v1... granted in WZs 1v1 is rare so all you see is people going CC immune all the time or yourself dying while CC immune with the immunity counting down. Which dying and respawning to see your CC immunity wearing off is a HUGE rage inducer.

[DarkHelsing]

Most people aren't quiting because of expertise. They are quitting because 1.2 was a huge let down and rated WZs are STILL not released or even mentioned to be coming in the immediate future. 1.3 has been announced and there are very few if any PvP updates in the patch. It is mostly another Legacy patch, but at least this time some of the legacy stuff will be useful to alts who do PvP.

 

People are leaving because Ilum was gutted and there isn't an announcement of what will replace it or even when it will be replaced. If large scale PvP was your thing then you are also leaving because everyone realizes that the engine can't support large scale PvP.. which is why Ilum was gutted to begin with.

 

People are leaving because there is very little open world PvP going on at any given time... even if you had full servers there are only a select few planets that would have PvP even on PvP enabled servers... which is hilarious.

 

People are leaving because of people leaving. We have a ton of dead servers now. There has been zero announcement on when cross server match making will come out and also zero announcement of when server merges might be a possibility.

 

People are leaving because of the lack of preceived balance and the fact that BW lacks the communication to give us insight to what they invision as balance. What we see are buffs to classes that were already very strong like Marauder and Snipers... I'm not getting into a nerf war here... I said perceived balance... It gets thrown out when people see perceived strong classes getting more buffs.

 

People are leaving because BW straight up lied about how much PvP would be in the game. Almost 6 months later people are tired of waiting for them to deliver when other new games are coming out like TERA, GW2 and D3 just to name a few.

 

Expertise is so far down on the list of why people would leave that it almost doesn't matter. Most PvPers are used to a PvP stat... while we may not like it... we are used to it and expertise isn't something we would leave over.

 

I agree with what you stated here, I truly do.

 

The reason Expertise is high on my hit list, is because what is stands for, the rational BW has to use it. As I've stated many many times, having Expertise isn't what bothers me, it's being lead through a game 1-49 with all these choices and freedoms, and being punished for hitting level 50 by having so many of those freedoms revoked.

 

This means it is a fundamental thinking that BW is using that is flawed, and everything you just mentioned is a clear indication of that flawed fundamental thinking.

 

When I state "It is not Needed", I am stating the mentality behind it isn't needed. To remove choice, to force play styles, to slap away everything the player has grown accustomed to from 1-49... that's not well thought out, and as you are clearly indicating above they haven't thought out end game very much at all.

 

 

Expertise is on my hit list because of the poor thought out end game. Here, let me quote James Ohlen and rip apart his stupidity;

 

One of the functions expertise serves is to divide our PvP gear and PvE gear. For example, we don't want a situation where you want to play the PvE operations endgame, but the best way to do that is to spend several weeks playing warzones in order to get a PvP gear set. Thus, a PvP set will have significantly lower raw stats than a PvE set of the same level and will receive a budget of expertise to compensate. The bonuses you get from that expertise in PvP should effectively reverse the situation, so a player in a PvE set will be at an equivalent disadvantage if he jumps into PvP without earning the lower-level PvP gear set first.

 

What we found prior to patch 1.2 is that because the PvP endgame was much more accessible than the PvE endgame, many PvE guilds were using warzones to get endgame gear instead of playing through the flashpoints and normal-mode operations. In addition, the original PvP gear only had expertise on the armoring, hilt, and barrel, which made the modifications and enhancements in that gear more effective than intended in PvE.

 

After all the preaching about not dividing players into having to pick one way or the other in all the other areas of the game, Mr. Ohlen coughs up that statement. So instead of fixing the issue, and balancing the game better, and make better choices for their player base, they simply slap on more Expertise so they don't have to worry about making the End Game Content more balanced. PvEers were getting gear from PvP in order to Raid because PvP was easier, so instead of addressing the issue of the PvE purchasing system (you know, the actual problem) we will just make PvP gear way less effective in PvE and FORCE PLAYERS back into PvE.

 

I hate that man, I hope he gets fired.

 

To address these issues in patch 1.2, we increased the gap between PvE and PvP on the new War Hero gear, sacrificing a greater percentage of stats and giving more expertise in return. We also extended this to the modification and enhancement item mods, introducing expertise there and further increasing the total expertise budget. In fact, the final expertise budget on War Hero was so high that we had to retroactively add some "bonus" expertise to the existing PvP gear in order to avoid creating too much of a gap between the top and bottom end PvP players.

 

Unfortunately, this also meant that players stepping into PvP with a fresh level 50 who has no expertise will be destroyed by players with expertise, leading to a very frustrating experience (and this experience was already pretty rough prior to patch 1.2).

So, we made a stupid choice and increased Expertise because we at BW believe in Segregation, everyone of this color please move to the back of the bus! Oh, and sorry about the new level 50s, we know you're going to get destroyed by players with Expertise, and that you'll be even more frustrated than before Patch 1.2, but that's ok, we don't mind if you cancel your account because our End Game Content decisions are horrible, because our goal is to hit F2P by the end of the summer.

Edited May 16, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[DarkDruidSS]

The reason Expertise is high on my hit list, is because what is stands for, the rational BW has to use it. As I've stated many many times, having Expertise isn't what bothers me, it's being lead through a game 1-49 with all these choices and freedoms, and being punished for hitting level 50 by having so many of those freedoms revoked.

 

This means it is a fundamental thinking that BW is using that is flawed, and everything you just mentioned is a clear indication of that flawed fundamental thinking.

 

When I state "It is not Needed", I am stating the mentality behind it isn't needed. To remove choice, to force play styles, to slap away everything the player has grown accustomed to from 1-49... that's not well thought out, and as you are clearly indicating above they haven't thought out end game very much at all.

 

 

Expertise is on my hit list because of the poor thought out end game. Here, let me quote James Ohlen and rip apart his stupidity;

 

I don't see how you can balance PvP without removing some kind of freedoms from the players. With expertise you still have the freedom to mod stats in your gear to your play style. If you only had 1 gear set for PvP that was universal like GW2 then you have zero freedom. If you don't have a any gear restrictions then which ever avenue that grants the best gear will be the dominate force in PvP.

 

This game was built around PvE so the combat abilities were never designed to be balanced around PvP... which is why you have a PvP stat that can universally normalize damage and healing across the board. IF the game was like GW2 where it was built around PvP first and foremost then you could get away without having a PvP specific stat. Even then you are creating a lot of trouble for youself when you can use a universal stat to help manage PvP like WoW, Aion, Warhammer, Rift and now SWTOR. Not only that, but there is zero freedom in GW2 because of their design... everyone have the same gear depending on their class. In effect that is the same as using expertise.. only it isn't changed by acquiring more pieces.. it's static instead.

[Jadescythe]

I agree with what you stated here, I truly do.

 

The reason Expertise is high on my hit list, is because what is stands for, the rational BW has to use it. As I've stated many many times, having Expertise isn't what bothers me, it's being lead through a game 1-49 with all these choices and freedoms, and being punished for hitting level 50 by having so many of those freedoms revoked.

 

This means it is a fundamental thinking that BW is using that is flawed, and everything you just mentioned is a clear indication of that flawed fundamental thinking.

 

When I state "It is not Needed", I am stating the mentality behind it isn't needed. To remove choice, to force play styles, to slap away everything the player has grown accustomed to from 1-49... that's not well thought out, and as you are clearly indicating above they haven't thought out end game very much at all.

 

How does separating PVP and PVE restrict you from playing what you want? If you want to play PVP you can and do not have to do PVE. This does not "force" you to play one way or another. It simply prevents one realm from slipping into another. I won't quote the rest of your post for length sake, but you are basically arguing that you have to play a certain style, which is extremely untrue. You can choose what parts of the game you like to play and go down the path that fits you best and receive rewards appropriate to that path. If you want to do PVP, you'll be rewarded with PVP gear which seems to make sense in my mind. If PVP is what you like to do, then why would not getting PVE gear be a problem at all? I am of the mind that I like to do both, so I have gear from both aspects of the game that I use in appropriate situations. Your claim that you are forced to do PVP to get expertise gear is correct, but what would you need gear with expertise for unless you planned on doing PVP at end game in the first place? This assertion about limiting play is only valid in a world where the player wants gear for PVP and has to do PVE to accomplish this (or the other way around), which is not the case. This is exactly why expertise is important, to prevent a player from HAVING to do PVE in order to be the best in PVP and the other way around, therefore allowing the player to only complete content they find enjoyable (your original argument).

 

To sum things up, you argue that you want more options for endgame and not being "forced" to do content you do not like, but want to remove the barrier that prevents this exact scenario from coming about. What you are really wanting is to be able to do both PVE and PVP without actually going through the grind of doing both. This may very well be your point, but your want to be able to save time on both content will always be trumped by the potential imbalance that cross-realm gear presents. A stat like expertise, after the 1.2 buff, guarantees that PVP gear will always be the best for PVP and not force players to complete content they do not want to (PVE in this case). I would much rather force people to do 2 grinds for gear than force players to complete content they do not like, simply to get BiS gear.

[DarkDruidSS]

This means it is a fundamental thinking that BW is using that is flawed, and everything you just mentioned is a clear indication of that flawed fundamental thinking.

 

Btw, this is you telling me that you are right and I am wrong... yet again. I thought you don't make these statements?

[DarkHelsing]

I don't see how you can balance PvP without removing some kind of freedoms from the players. With expertise you still have the freedom to mod stats in your gear to your play style. If you only had 1 gear set for PvP that was universal like GW2 then you have zero freedom. If you don't have a any gear restrictions then which ever avenue that grants the best gear will be the dominate force in PvP.

 

This is where I'm either totally out-of-line with my thinking, or I'm unable to properly convey what I'm thinking.

 

Because my thinking is along the lines of this;

BW stated the main reason for Expertise was because they didn't want PvEers to get gear by not PvEing. What this means to me is, BW thought they were forcing PvEers into PvP because PvP was the fastest way to gear to up. So instead of addressing the gear up rate of PvE, they pushed PvP gear further into the useless category for PvE.

 

I'm not saying have "one gear set". I'm saying have both paths reward equally and none of this should be an issue. If I happen to PvE today and something drops that I like, I can use it in both PvE and PvP. If I happen to PvP tomorrow and get an item that has an awesome Enhancement that would go great with my PvE set, I can swap it out and use it for PvE. If the problem is gear is to easy to get via one path (which they stated was the actual problem), then fix "the problem" don't create new problems trying to throw a bandaid onto it.

 

This game was built around PvE so the combat abilities were never designed to be balanced around PvP... which is why you have a PvP stat that can universally normalize damage and healing across the board. IF the game was like GW2 where it was built around PvP first and foremost then you could get away without having a PvP specific stat. Even then you are creating a lot of trouble for youself when you can use a universal stat to help manage PvP like WoW, Aion, Warhammer, Rift and now SWTOR. Not only that, but there is zero freedom in GW2 because of their design... everyone have the same gear depending on their class. In effect that is the same as using expertise.. only it isn't changed by acquiring more pieces.. it's static instead.

 

Again, using Expertise as a crutch to help Devs balance out PvP... sure, I can live with that, no big deal. But that's not what they are using it for as their main focus. Their main focus is to force players to gain gear via one method or the other, and not allow players the choice to gain gear equally from both. It's that mentality that I have a problem with, and Expertise is at the heart of that mentality.

[DarkHelsing]

This means it is a fundamental thinking that BW is using that is flawed, and everything you just mentioned is a clear indication of that flawed fundamental thinking.

Btw, this is you telling me that you are right and I am wrong... yet again. I thought you don't make these statements?

 

Umm, I was agreeing with you, I was telling you that I feel you are right and I agree.... I agree that everything you stated was a Flaw, yes I agree, those are all Flaws.

 

So... yeah.

Edited May 16, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[DarkHelsing]

How does separating PVP and PVE restrict you from playing what you want? If you want to play PVP you can and do not have to do PVE. This does not "force" you to play one way or another. It simply prevents one realm from slipping into another. I won't quote the rest of your post for length sake, but you are basically arguing that you have to play a certain style, which is extremely untrue. You can choose what parts of the game you like to play and go down the path that fits you best and receive rewards appropriate to that path. If you want to do PVP, you'll be rewarded with PVP gear which seems to make sense in my mind. If PVP is what you like to do, then why would not getting PVE gear be a problem at all? I am of the mind that I like to do both, so I have gear from both aspects of the game that I use in appropriate situations. Your claim that you are forced to do PVP to get expertise gear is correct, but what would you need gear with expertise for unless you planned on doing PVP at end game in the first place? This assertion about limiting play is only valid in a world where the player wants gear for PVP and has to do PVE to accomplish this (or the other way around), which is not the case. This is exactly why expertise is important, to prevent a player from HAVING to do PVE in order to be the best in PVP and the other way around, therefore allowing the player to only complete content they find enjoyable (your original argument).

 

To sum things up, you argue that you want more options for endgame and not being "forced" to do content you do not like, but want to remove the barrier that prevents this exact scenario from coming about. What you are really wanting is to be able to do both PVE and PVP without actually going through the grind of doing both. This may very well be your point, but your want to be able to save time on both content will always be trumped by the potential imbalance that cross-realm gear presents. A stat like expertise, after the 1.2 buff, guarantees that PVP gear will always be the best for PVP and not force players to complete content they do not want to (PVE in this case). I would much rather force people to do 2 grinds for gear than force players to complete content they do not like, simply to get BiS gear.

 

Meh, that's not it. Either you don't get what I'm trying to say, or I'm not properly conveying what I'm trying to say. Either way I can't debate this with you because it's not close to what I'm getting at. I'm trying to say "apples" and you keep asking me why I keep saying "oranges"... I can't answer that question because I'm not trying to say "oranges".

Edited May 16, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[Jadescythe]

The reason Expertise is high on my hit list, is because what is stands for, the rational BW has to use it. As I've stated many many times, having Expertise isn't what bothers me, it's being lead through a game 1-49 with all these choices and freedoms, and being punished for hitting level 50 by having so many of those freedoms revoked.

 

This is exactly what you said. Unless I am completely misinterpreting this statement and every other post you've made, you want PVE and PVP to use the same gear so you can complete end game content however you feel like, correct? That is the way leveling is, you can hop in a wz and compete anytime throughout your leveling process, only do wz (which would take forever), or skip PVP altogether.

 

This philosophy only functions if both routes are viable to gain the same level gear at the same pace or where gear does not matter in PVP. Gear leveling will never be balanced in a real world scenario, there will always be one path that is better (most likely a combination of PVE and PVP considering daily and weekly objectives), which would force players into doing content they don't like (the point I was making in my last post). Gear not mattering means that everyone going into a wz is the same which also means less customization on the part of the player( the point of my previous post).

 

Does this better clarify why I disagree with your position on why expertise should be removed?

[DarthKhaos]

They removed the alignment restrictions because of what I was saying. They wanted players to have the freedom of choice to not be forced down any one single avenue as the best way to get gear. They wanted players to have the choice to flip flop back and forth as they wanted. Same with BioChem and CyberTech for crew skills, those two crew skills are the two to choose if you PvP, BW stated they didn't want to force players into choices, so they were going to make the other crew skills more viable.

 

BW stresses they want to give players the freedom of choice to jump back and forth and not be punished into having to focus on one thing in order to properly gear yourself... yet Ohlen clearly states you must pick PvE or PvP at level 50, and you are not free to flip flop freely back and forth without penalty.

Lets look at the 2 proposals.

Proposal A: (Your proposal) Players who only want to PvP or PvE would feel like they have to do the other in order to keep up.

Proposal B: (Current system) Players only feel like they have to do PvE or PvP if they want to partake in that endeavor.

 

Now which one more feels like forcing a player to perform a choice they DO NOT WANT TO DO?

 

Because my thinking is along the lines of this;

BW stated the main reason for Expertise was because they didn't want PvEers to get gear by not PvEing. What this means to me is, BW thought they were forcing PvEers into PvP because PvP was the fastest way to gear to up. So instead of addressing the gear up rate of PvE, they pushed PvP gear further into the useless category for PvE.

Now this is where you misunderstood my point on progression rate. PvP & PvE CANNOT have the same progression rate. Because what is acceptable for PvE is not for PvP and vice versa. You NEED that faster rate in PvP to get players to the middle tier of gear fast so they can be competitive and not spend a long period of time getting stomped on by top geared players. Also the difference between the middle tier and the top tier gear is a lot smaller for PvP than PvE so that gear isn't a huge factor in a PvP battle.

Edited May 17, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Wrthlessnoob]

Needed

[DarkHelsing]

This is exactly what you said. Unless I am completely misinterpreting this statement and every other post you've made, you want PVE and PVP to use the same gear so you can complete end game content however you feel like, correct?

 

No, not correct. And that's my point about not being able to continue this debate with you. I feel I've made it very very very clear that I am ok with many options, as long as the options re-bridge the gigantic gap that patch 1.2 created between PvE gear and PvP gear. I've even stated that going back to pre 1.2 would be better than it is now. Patch 1.2 went off in the complete opposite direction that I care to see. But no, I'm not "stuck on one desire". The difference between PvE and PvP went to far in patch 1.2, any suggestion that brings that gap back closer together I am for. But no, it does not have to be the same gear. I'd personally prefer (and I've stated this many times) that the gear be split up between the two paths - equipment rewards are hollow husks and only for "looks", each path offers different looking gear; then the reward system for progression is based off everything you put into your gear, hilts, crystals, armoring, etc., and PvE rewards different stat'd mods than PvP offers (like how there's 3-4 different types of each mod, so PvE offers 1 and 2, while PvP offers 3 and 4). But again, that's just one suggestion, I happen to like it, but I'm not closed off to any other suggestions that help remove and prevent what they did in Patch 1.2.

 

That is the way leveling is, you can hop in a wz and compete anytime throughout your leveling process, only do wz (which would take forever), or skip PVP altogether.

 

This philosophy only functions if both routes are viable to gain the same level gear at the same pace or where gear does not matter in PVP. Gear leveling will never be balanced in a real world scenario, there will always be one path that is better (most likely a combination of PVE and PVP considering daily and weekly objectives), which would force players into doing content they don't like (the point I was making in my last post).

I agree with you here, 100%. My issue is the "better gear" doesn't have to be such a gigantic advantage, it is possible for it to be an advantage on the small scale, leaving a ton of room for player skill. Patch 1.2 pushed player skill right out the window and stated loudly that "if you don't have Expertise you're going to get destroyed". I loathe that line of thinking. Rewarding players is what should be done, but having a system that feeds the gear so much power that player skill is totally thrown out... that disgusts me.

 

Gear not mattering means that everyone going into a wz is the same which also means less customization on the part of the player( the point of my previous post).

 

Does this better clarify why I disagree with your position on why expertise should be removed?

 

Again, I understand what you are stating but I can't debate with you much because I agree with many of your points. The point I'm failing to convey is that Expertise is an "ideal" that I loathe. The ideal has been quoted verbatim by BioWare as to why they implemented Expertise how they did in Patch 1.2, and nothing within my reason or logic can agree with their "ideals".

[DarkHelsing]

Lets look at the 2 proposals.

Proposal A: (Your proposal) Players who only want to PvP or PvE would feel like they have to do the other in order to keep up.

Proposal B: (Current system) Players only feel like they have to do PvE or PvP if they want to partake in that endeavor.

 

Now which one more feels like forcing a player to perform a choice they DO NOT WANT TO DO?

 

My Proposal: Players want to PvP, they can, and they never have to PvE if they don't want to. However, if they want to PvE for a break in their routine, their gear isn't so far behind that they are so gimp no one will take them.

Current System: If you PvP and that's what you like to do, and you want to take a break for a night and PvE in a Raid, you can't without being FORCED into Raiding more than you want to in order to get the gear to make anything you do worth while enough to be invited.

 

So which one forces players again?

 

My Way - The gear is much closer, and if PvPers want to PvE for a break, they can with a much less gear penalty difference than what's currently in place.

Their Way - You can't just take a break and go, you have to endure the path you don't like very much just so on the off chance that you feel like doing it down the road, you'll be geared enough to get an invite.

 

 

Now this is where you misunderstood my point on progression rate. PvP & PvE CANNOT have the same progression rate. Because what is acceptable for PvE is not for PvP and vice versa. You NEED that faster rate in PvP to get players to the middle tier of gear fast so they can be competitive and not spend a long period of time getting stomped on by top geared players. Also the difference between the middle tier and the top tier gear is a lot smaller for PvP than PvE so that gear isn't a huge factor in a PvP battle.

 

They can. Using fictional numbers (NOT REAL VALUES) - If a Raid takes 2 hours for 8 people to clear, not including grouping up and finding everybody that's needed, if it takes 2 hours and the average is everyone gets 1 piece of gear. If it takes 2 hours of solid WZs, not including que times, if it takes 2 hours and the average reward rate is everyone gets 1 piece of gear.... this is accomplish-able.

[Jonoku]

Not Needed, I rather go through pve to get the best gear possible and go through crafting.

[MikeAWBD]

I think it is needed.

 

I think having a PVP gear grind is necessary to have a reward for PVP. I know that PVP itself is a reward, but it also needs something more "tangible".

 

People who only PVE or mostly PVP can still cross to a certain extent. You shouldn't be able to do hard mode or nightmare ops with War Hero gear. The same goes for dominating in Rakata in PVP. You can however do storymode ops in recruit or better gear, and recruit gear is not expensive if your doing PVE dailies. IMHO either side is not overwhelmingly difficult to break into if you primarily have only done the other.

 

The biggest problem with PVP vs PVE is the lack of dual spec. There is no spec that works equally well for both PVE and PVE. There are some that aren't bad(ie: watchman spec for sentinel), but there are some that are downright useless(full sheild spec for vanguard). A way to switch armor/weapon sets without having to equip each individual piece would be nice too.

 

Instituting the rated warzones and other PVP changes would help matters as well. I think the biggest reason PVP is broken right now is that they only put in half the changes in 1.2. Many of the changes seem to have been meant to work with changes that got scrapped at the last minute.

[DarkHelsing]

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