The "Bubble" Tank 19/0/22

[Agooz]

No thanks.

 

I would MUCH rather have flat mitigation that has no downtime as opposed to an already weak shield that can only be used for a short duration once every couple of minutes.

 

lol, I guess you didnt bother to read the discussion and the whole concept of the spec. To summarize, it is 25% damage mitigation (hardly a "weak" shield), for 18seconds (that's not a short duration), every 50sec (not 2 minutes).

[Teioh_White]

I'd be more sad about losing the bonus damage to rocket punch. In fights where I can shield, it's been parsing about 30% of my damage, hate to have that go down. Not to mention, in EC HM i've had to pop my shield exactly once every fight. Don't really need it up anymore than that one moment everything starts to go bad.

[Agooz]

Don't forget though, you have to look at the actual average mitigation gain from the shorter cooldown on Energy Shield. Assuming a 5-minute fight, with a standard tank spec and gear, you'll pop Energy Shield 3 times. That's 45 seconds of ES uptime for 300 seconds of fight, or 15% uptime, for an average damage reduction of 3.75%. So, in that scenario, you're only gaining 4.5% Damage mitigation over the course of the fight with the Bubble setup.

Additionally:

Gaining 2% melee ranged defense from Infrared sensors.

You're losing 2% Damage mitigation from Power Armor.

Losing 2% Defense/Resist from the 4-piece SC bonus.

Losing 6% Shield and 8% absorb (which, according my math is about ~6% damage mitigation against melee/ranged attacks).

 

So, assuming you're taking mostly melee/ranged attacks (like most boss fights), it's going to be a net damage mitigation loss, though not by too much. On a pure Force/Tech fight (Soa) you'll take a little less damage on average (2.5% more mitigation), but you'll also resist 2% less often. So, kind of a wash.

 

Threat generation will definitely be worse for this build. The only Pyro DPS talents that do anything while you're tanking are incendiary missile and Supercharged Rail. Your Rail Shots will cost only 8 heat, but PPA will not proc while running IGC, so they're still a 15-second cooldown. You also lose 30% armor pen on Rail Shot (since you're not specced for Puncture). You lose the 6% crit to Flame Burst/Flame Thrower, 30% Crit damage to Rocket Punch (which is a big loss since Rocket Punch crits a lot thanks to Flame Shield), The loss of IGC uptime may be negated by the addition of incendiary missile, but maintaining incendiary missile will cost significantly more heat that IGC. And since you don't have Heat Blast for additional threat/heat dispersion, heat will be more of a hassle to deal with.

 

So, basically, as a tank, you'll be significantly worse than a full Shield Tech. Your healers may be able to keep you up, but you will take more damage, and you'll deal less damage. Switching to CGC to DPS, I would imagine that you'll probably do significantly more damage than a full ST tank would do though, because of all the CGC talents in Pyro.

 

So really, that's the tradeoff from speccing hybrid like this. Your tanking will be worse, but your DPS when not tanking will probably be better.

 

You have some good points, but I will have to disagree on the Energy Shield usage of Full STs. Because of its normal long cooldown, a typical tank will NOT use it 3 times in a fight. Most tanks will often save it for when it is needed, rather than just use it for the sake of getting 3 uses in a 6min fight. So typically it would get used a couple of times in a fight.

Also if you value the 2% defense from the 4pc so much, which I personally dont at all on a tank that relies on shield/absorb to be effective, then you can still use the 4pc set and loose out on the extra 3sec of shield.

 

I am not arguing that this is a superior Tank build, but I certainly see a lot of pluses for it. Having a shield that mitigates 25% of all incoming damage 40% of the time on a boss fight, shouldnt really be compared to 6%shield/8%absorb/2%mitigation in a side by side mathematical equation. Just like tanking stats between different tanking ACs are very different.

 

In any case, thank you for the input.

[Agooz]

I'd be more sad about losing the bonus damage to rocket punch. In fights where I can shield, it's been parsing about 30% of my damage, hate to have that go down. Not to mention, in EC HM i've had to pop my shield exactly once every fight. Don't really need it up anymore than that one moment everything starts to go bad.

 

It's not so much about you as it is about healers. Of course a capable healer can keep up the "traditional" tank. After all, the encounters are designed and balanced based on "traditional" specs. But you can argue that having an ability that can mitigate your damage that much as "not needed". I can see a tank with a spec like this kept up with HoTs 50% of the time, allowing maybe for healer to focus more on AoE heals, or hec even dish out some dps.

 

Is there a reason for an Ops group that is farming HM Ops, to have their PT tank switch to something like this? Absolutely not. If it aint broke, why fix it? A spec like this may help another group that is having difficulties with some encounters, maybe because of under performing healers, or under performing dps.

[Mc_Gregor]

You have some good points, but I will have to disagree on the Energy Shield usage of Full STs. Because of its normal long cooldown, a typical tank will NOT use it 3 times in a fight. Most tanks will often save it for when it is needed, rather than just use it for the sake of getting 3 uses in a 6min fight. So typically it would get used a couple of times in a fight.

Also if you value the 2% defense from the 4pc so much, which I personally dont at all on a tank that relies on shield/absorb to be effective, then you can still use the 4pc set and loose out on the extra 3sec of shield.

 

I actually use the shield as often as I can, except the figths with soft enrage on a set timer. If I save it for the moment when everything goes bad I tend to just not use it for the fight (is it now? or in a sec? oh ****, its not going to help anyways). I rotate it with oilslick and my trinket and that means I almost always have some kind of additional protection buff/debuff up. So yea, popping shield on every cooldown to help my healers conserve their resources.

 

Also 4 pc bonus is a huge boost. With already high ratings of each defensive stat a flat bonus to your main function (ie, reducing damage taken) is, in my oppinion one of the best bonuses out there.

 

Having said that, Im interested how this build would work in real fight, I can imagine several uses for it and it definatelly deserves a closer look.

[Anavarra]

You have some good points, but I will have to disagree on the Energy Shield usage of Full STs. Because of its normal long cooldown, a typical tank will NOT use it 3 times in a fight. Most tanks will often save it for when it is needed, rather than just use it for the sake of getting 3 uses in a 6min fight. So typically it would get used a couple of times in a fight.

 

If you're going to estimate the performance of this Bubble concept by assuming ES is used on cooldown, then the only reasonable way to compare it to a full Shield Tech is to also assume ES is used on cooldown, which is what I did above. As someone else already pointed out, unless you're in a fight where you know you need ES at some point in the future to deal with a boss mechanic, it's generally better to just cycle it, and proactively help your healers.

[Dademoor]

So I tried this spec last night in a normal FP with a very good healer (my buddy thats been healing me in different MMO's for the past 5 years) and I have to say I noticed very little difference in damage taken compared to the normal 31/8/2 spec I usually run with. Granted it was a NORMAL run and those are always quite easy, but I wanted to ease into things and try something easy to begin with.

 

Things to note:

 

Aggro was a no brainer, casting Incendiary Missle on multiple targets while running into combat (I miss you Jet Charge) helped greatly to keep ranged mob threat. Heat was a bit of an issue, but with the 30 second reduction to Vent Heat cooldown I found it was ready to go just about everytime I needed it (which was almost every fight).

 

For most of the FP I ran in CGC because the trash mods were so easy and I have to say the Rail Shot spam was amazing. I parsed higher than the 2 DPSers in the group on all except boss fights this way.

 

The Degauss talent was amazingly useful as well, the ability to shrug off all movement imparing effects each time you pop Energy Shield was just Great! Maybe it was just the FP I was in but I seemed to notice the snares a lot more now that I could pretty much remove them at will (between Degause and Determination) This is also amazingly helpful with the loss of Jet Charge in this build.

 

I know it was said that we were suppose to foget about CGC while tanking, due to the loss of mitigation and threat, but I had a grand time running around in CGC with my competant healer. I also think I outgeared the DPS in the group so that helped a lot in keeping threat on trash. I always switched back to IGC on boss fights though.

 

A side note, I do not have the additional duration on Energy Shield from the 2 set bonuses. So I am still running at 12 second duration and it still felt like it was up nearly all of the time. Between Energy Shield, Oil Slick, and my Relics my healer buddy actually DPS'd for quite a bit of the FP.

 

We'll be doing some HM FPs this weekend, i'll post again with my results.

[Agooz]

So I tried this spec last night in a normal FP with a very good healer (my buddy thats been healing me in different MMO's for the past 5 years) and I have to say I noticed very little difference in damage taken compared to the normal 31/8/2 spec I usually run with. Granted it was a NORMAL run and those are always quite easy, but I wanted to ease into things and try something easy to begin with.

 

Things to note:

 

Aggro was a no brainer, casting Incendiary Missle on multiple targets while running into combat (I miss you Jet Charge) helped greatly to keep ranged mob threat. Heat was a bit of an issue, but with the 30 second reduction to Vent Heat cooldown I found it was ready to go just about everytime I needed it (which was almost every fight).

 

For most of the FP I ran in CGC because the trash mods were so easy and I have to say the Rail Shot spam was amazing. I parsed higher than the 2 DPSers in the group on all except boss fights this way.

 

The Degauss talent was amazingly useful as well, the ability to shrug off all movement imparing effects each time you pop Energy Shield was just Great! Maybe it was just the FP I was in but I seemed to notice the snares a lot more now that I could pretty much remove them at will (between Degause and Determination) This is also amazingly helpful with the loss of Jet Charge in this build.

 

I know it was said that we were suppose to foget about CGC while tanking, due to the loss of mitigation and threat, but I had a grand time running around in CGC with my competant healer. I also think I outgeared the DPS in the group so that helped a lot in keeping threat on trash. I always switched back to IGC on boss fights though.

 

A side note, I do not have the additional duration on Energy Shield from the 2 set bonuses. So I am still running at 12 second duration and it still felt like it was up nearly all of the time. Between Energy Shield, Oil Slick, and my Relics my healer buddy actually DPS'd for quite a bit of the FP.

 

We'll be doing some HM FPs this weekend, i'll post again with my results.

 

Thanks for the feedback. In decent gear, I see this spec really shining for HM FPs. I tried tanking HM FPs in full dps gear/Pyro spec, and it was still fine. Granted you need a competent healer. And even then I didnt have Energy Rebounder, because I never specced for it before.

 

Going in with a spec like this, switching to CGC on trash pulls, which would maximize Energy Rebounder due to being hit by multiple mobs all the time, then switching back to ICG on boss fights, can make HM FPs a breeze.

 

The real test is running it in HM Ops. My gut feeling says it is very viable and useful for HM EV/KP.

[Bryntone]

I can see the excellent potential for this build being an off-tank in many HM's, depending on how well it works there might even work on NiM if geared well enough.

[TheronFett]

lol, I guess you didnt bother to read the discussion and the whole concept of the spec. To summarize, it is 25% damage mitigation (hardly a "weak" shield), for 18seconds (that's not a short duration), every 50sec (not 2 minutes).

 

I guess you didn't bother to read my point. An activated skill that has less shielding with a lot of downtime is not an improvement. Period.

[Agooz]

I guess you didn't bother to read my point. An activated skill that has less shielding with a lot of downtime is not an improvement. Period.

 

I read it, and replied to it in details to save you from reading the rest of the thread. You care to elaborate how an 18sec shield that mitigates 1/4 of the damage you take every 30sec or so after it expires is "less" shielding and "long" downtime? I would be very willing to listen. I am not asking you to agree that this is a viable spec. I already know that it is 100% viable. The discussion is more about what you gain vs what you loose, and where/what could this spec be used for.

I know one thing for sure. If we both tank the same HM FP, using the same DPS/Healer group, I in this spec and you in your full ST spec, player skills aside, my group will have an easier and faster time in the FP.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Agooz

[Dademoor]

I guess you didn't bother to read my point. An activated skill that has less shielding with a lot of downtime is not an improvement. Period.

 

I am not seeing how it has "Less Shielding" . . . What you loose vs. what you gain is negligible. From my limited testing my threat went up, Heat was more of a challenge, but with any new spec you need to learn what you can do and when to manage your heat levels.

 

"a lot of downtime" ?

With the massive reduction in cooldown (from 120 sec to ~50) and the increase in duraction (from 12 sec to 18) you are really only without the shield for ~30 seconds. and even when you are not shielded you still have several damage reduction talents, your reclics, and even Oil Slick (though this one doesent work so well with Energy Rebounder)

 

I look forward to trying this in a HM FP this weekend, hopefully I will be able to scrape together the gear needed to increase the Energy Shield duration also!

[TheronFett]

What you lose (based on being a full 31 point Shieldtech):

1. Jet Boost. Leaping to target is a core tanking ability in TOR.

2. Flame Shield: Losing 30% critical on Rocket Punch and Flamethrower, and a 50% chance to finish CD on RP.

3. Flame Surge: Losing another 30% critical on Rocket Punch and also Flame Sweep.

4. Heat Screen: 4% absorb boost.

5. Heat Blast: Non-GCD heat vent + damage.

6. Depending on spec, you could also be losing damage on IGC and/or immobilization on Grapple + Stealth Scan.

7. Power Armor. 2% damage reduction.

8. Supercommando Set Armor: 2% internal and elemental damage reduction.

9. Raw mitigation: Losing about 6% shield and 8% absorb overall.

 

What you gain:

1. Iron Fist. 8% RP damage increase.

2. Degauss. Removes immobilizing effects when Energy Shield is up.

3. Rapid Venting. 15 sec CD reduction.

4. Energy Rebounder. Reduces CD on Energy Shield.

5. Gyroscopic Alignment Jets. Vents 8 heat when immobilized, etc.

 

Since you're running this with IGC, any other benefits from the Pyro tree are negated. Other skills picked up in the Pyro tree really have no bearing on this discussion either.

 

The main contention here is with Energy Shield. With this "Bubble Spec", the claim is that 18 sec up time/30 sec downtime on a 25% damage reduction active ability is worth giving up everything lost as a full Shieldtech. I believe you may be onto something here for PvP, given that you can switch back and forth between IGC and CGC. There is some decent damage potential here coupled with a defense boost on demand. Even if you are talking normal flashpoints and heroics.

 

As a main tank in an Operation, and especially as a tank in a HM 8-man Operation, this spec is sub-par and would not hold up during boss fights. You've lost a lot of potential to hold aggro due to a pretty significant drop in DPS, in addition lost raw mitigation, and traded it in for an activated skill with downtime. In this spec, you would take more damage over the duration of a fight, putting additional stress on the healers. Yes, you may have your Uber Shield and take very little damage while it was up, but when it's down...ouch.

 

Energy Shield is meant to support us through those rough times, such as Foreman Crusher's frenzy. If you time it right, you can have the shield up for every one of them, without using a spec like this. Using the shield as a go-to ability is attempting to turn Powertech into a Tankassin. We're just not built that way. You are giving up a ton of good threat generation and raw mitigation for a quirky shield that works some of the time...about 40% or so for the duration of a boss fight. As opposed to having awesome defense and threat generation for 100% of the fight, in addition to still keeping the shield for that extra boost when needed.

[thrakkemarn]

Don't forget though, you have to look at the actual average mitigation gain from the shorter cooldown on Energy Shield. Assuming a 5-minute fight, with a standard tank spec and gear, you'll pop Energy Shield 3 times. That's 45 seconds of ES uptime for 300 seconds of fight, or 15% uptime, for an average damage reduction of 3.75%. So, in that scenario, you're only gaining 4.5% Damage mitigation over the course of the fight with the Bubble setup.

Additionally:

Gaining 2% melee ranged defense from Infrared sensors.

You're losing 2% Damage mitigation from Power Armor.

Losing 2% Defense/Resist from the 4-piece SC bonus.

Losing 6% Shield and 8% absorb (which, according my math is about ~6% damage mitigation against melee/ranged attacks).

 

So, assuming you're taking mostly melee/ranged attacks (like most boss fights), it's going to be a net damage mitigation loss, though not by too much. On a pure Force/Tech fight (Soa) you'll take a little less damage on average (2.5% more mitigation), but you'll also resist 2% less often. So, kind of a wash.

 

So really, that's the tradeoff from speccing hybrid like this. Your tanking will be worse, but your DPS when not tanking will probably be better.

 

You raise a good point, I was not factoring in the existing up-time of Energy Shield as a pure tank. However you make some mistakes in your napkin math.

 

On a 2-minute cooldown you will only use Energy Shield twice in a 5-minute fight. Even in a 6-minute fight you will only use it twice as using it out the gate is a waste when healers are at full resources and already over-healing you, and you risk not being able to squeeze a 3rd use in anyway. Regardless, 2x15 seconds = 30 seconds in a 300 second fight for average mitigation of 2.5%. The net gain of the Bubble Tank spec is therefore ~5.5% damage reduction.

 

Also to clarify, 6% shield chance and 8% absorb give more mitigation the higher your base shield and absorb. Assuming 50% shield and 50% absorb, the additional 6% and 8% gain an extra ~0.075 mitigation. You can do this using the mitigation formula mitigation=(1-((1-avoid)*(1-DR)*(shield*(1-absorb)+(1-shield)))). So it will gain you 6-8% extra mitigation in high end gear.

 

Additionally, I did not "resist" a single attack from Zorn or Stormcaller, and 100% of their elemental attacks "hit" me. I am unsure whether the 4-piece Supercommando bonus works at ALL vs elemental damage.

 

So yes, on pure physical damage fights it will probably be a mitigation loss. Depending on RNG, of course. On elemental fights, it will be probably be a 1-2% mitigation boost. Or 3-4% depending on how "resist" works.

 

This is where I see the greatest potential for this spec in HM operations:

1) Energy Shield is guaranteed damage reduction. You are not relying on shield or defense CHANCE.

2) Energy shield protects against all damage types.

 

When reviewing my logs of HM EC, I confirmed that Zorn and Stormcaller both seem to do 100% elemental damage. I did not shield (referred to as "glance") a SINGLE attack from either of them. All of my sky-high shield and absorb rating was worth NOTHING when tanking those bosses. On the other hand, vs Toth and Firebrand I glanced a significant number of attacks. Nonetheless, my overall "avoidance %" was something like 15%!!! That's with 52% Shield Chance, ~60% (heat screened) absorb and ~12% dodge, AND popping Oil Slick on cooldown.

 

So yeah, I am really thinking that having more uses of a longer Energy Shield will actually provide significantly more ACTUAL mitigation than 6% shield, 8% absorb and 2% defense on some fights. On my list of the hardest operation bosses (ones where healers actually have trouble healing me) are:

NiM Soa (100% elemental damage that I have practically no mitigation vs., combined with RNG from lightning balls)

NiM Jarg/Sorno (if I am the tank on Jarg his elemental damage combined with his debuff hurts hard)

HM EC (comparing damage taken with the Assassin tank swapping with me in my guild who has much less gear than I do is painful. he takes significantly less damage from Zorn for example, and ~60% of my damage is from Zorn despite more time spent tanking Toth)

 

Anyway sorry for this egregiously long post.

 

TL;DR - The Bubble Tank will be tougher vs elemental damage, but weaker vs physical damage. Since IMO the tougher fights are elemental ones, and PT tanks already have significant mitigation vs physical damage this build could make us a better overall tank.

Edited April 27, 2012 by thrakkemarn

[thrakkemarn]

What you lose (based on being a full 31 point Shieldtech):

...

4. Heat Screen: 4% absorb boost.

...

8. Supercommando Set Armor: 2% internal and elemental damage reduction.

...

What you gain:

1. Iron Fist. 8% RP damage increase.

...

You've lost a lot of potential to hold aggro due to a pretty significant drop in DPS, in addition lost raw mitigation, and traded it in for an activated skill with downtime. In this spec, you would take more damage over the duration of a fight, putting additional stress on the healers.

...

Energy Shield is meant to support us through those rough times, such as Foreman Crusher's frenzy. If you time it right, you can have the shield up for every one of them, without using a spec like this....You are giving up a ton of good threat generation and raw mitigation for a quirky shield that works some of the time...about 40% or so for the duration of a boss fight. As opposed to having awesome defense and threat generation for 100% of the fight, in addition to still keeping the shield for that extra boost when needed.

 

Ok wow ... where to start.

 

Heat screen is 8% absorb.

Supercommando set bonus: (4) Increases Melee, Range, Tech and Force defense by 2%. This is NOT the same as damage reduction.

You should have Iron Fist as pure Shield Tech anyway...

You cannot possibly shield each Frenzy on Foreman Crusher as pure ST. They come at 1 minute intervals on NiM...'

 

Do you have logs or any empirical evidence proving that this spec does less damage, generates less threat and takes more damage? Do you know what "quirky" means? Energy Shield is a reliable 25% reduction. Whether that outweighs what is lost from Shield Tech is up for debate, but let's try to keep the debate dealing in facts and not hyperbole please.

[Agooz]

What you lose (based on being a full 31 point Shieldtech):

1. Jet Boost. Leaping to target is a core tanking ability in TOR.

It's Jet Charge. Jet Boost is a Merc's ability. And while it is very nice it is not "core tanking" ability. How then are assassins tanking perfectly fine?

 

2. Flame Shield: Losing 30% critical on Rocket Punch and Flamethrower, and a 50% chance to finish CD on RP.

Wrong, it's there in the build

 

3. Flame Surge: Losing another 30% critical on Rocket Punch and also Flame Sweep.

Wrong, it is not 30% crit, it's surge. HUGE difference.

 

4. Heat Screen: 4% absorb boost.

Wrong, it's 8% absorb. And I am aware of it.

 

5. Heat Blast: Non-GCD heat vent + damage.

Yes, and tanks have constantly specced without it pre 1.2 and did just fine. Also some talents in the Pyro tree somewhat compensate.

 

6. Depending on spec, you could also be losing damage on IGC and/or immobilization on Grapple + Stealth Scan.

IGC "tick" damage is negligible. If you dont believe me, do a parse, one with the talents and another without.

Neural Overload and No Escape are PvP Talents, and no decent PvE tank would spec into them. The above spec is also exclusively PvE.

 

7. Power Armor. 2% damage reduction.

Yes, already accounted for.

 

8. Supercommando Set Armor: 2% internal and elemental damage reduction.

Wrong. No Supercommando set gives 2% mitigation. It's 2% defenses. Also accounted for, but you dont necessarily have to loose it. You can use the above spec with 4pc SC set.

 

9. Raw mitigation: Losing about 6% shield and 8% absorb overall.

 

Yes, the 6% shield is accounted for. You already mentioned Heat Screen which is the 8% absorb. Stating it twice, does not add more addvantages

 

What you gain:

1. Iron Fist. 8% RP damage increase.

Actually many full ST tanks already spec that, but I will take it as an advantage for this spec

 

2. Degauss. Removes immobilizing effects when Energy Shield is up.

Decent talent, as many bosses root and snare, but not necessary and the points can be moved elsewhere based on preference.

 

3. Rapid Venting. 15 sec CD reduction.

Very good to counter the loss of Heat Blast venting. Can also be 30sec CD reduction if you wanted.

 

4. Energy Rebounder. Reduces CD on Energy Shield.

STOP. I am sorry, I am not going to accept just brushing it off like this. It's not just another talent in the tree. It's is the ENTIRE purpose of this spec. Reduces cd from 2min to roughly 50sec. That's a HUGE difference.

 

5. Gyroscopic Alignment Jets. Vents 8 heat when immobilized, etc.

Also decent to compensate for Heat Blast.

 

Since you're running this with IGC, any other benefits from the Pyro tree are negated. Other skills picked up in the Pyro tree really have no bearing on this discussion either.

Completely disagree. The point in the Pyro tree allows the tank to perform as a dps in situations or on bosses where tanking is not needed at all. Something that a full ST can not do well at all.

In fight like Bonethrasher (KP), Soa (final Phase), Infernal Council, Jarg/Sorono even, a tank can switch to CGC and add significant dps to the raid.

 

The main contention here is with Energy Shield. With this "Bubble Spec", the claim is that 18 sec up time/30 sec downtime on a 25% damage reduction active ability is worth giving up everything lost as a full Shieldtech. I believe you may be onto something here for PvP, given that you can switch back and forth between IGC and CGC. There is some decent damage potential here coupled with a defense boost on demand. Even if you are talking normal flashpoints and heroics.

Disagree. This would be an aweful PvP spec. It is purely for PvE tanking.

 

As a main tank in an Operation, and especially as a tank in a HM 8-man Operation, this spec is sub-par and would not hold up during boss fights. You've lost a lot of potential to hold aggro due to a pretty significant drop in DPS, in addition lost raw mitigation, and traded it in for an activated skill with downtime. In this spec, you would take more damage over the duration of a fight, putting additional stress on the healers. Yes, you may have your Uber Shield and take very little damage while it was up, but when it's down...ouch.

If loosing 6% shield, 8%absorb, 2% mitigation, would make you drop like a sack, then either your stats are way below par, or your healers are not good. In fact this spec could actually prove better for a group with less adequate healer as the stress can be relieved 40% of the time for regen and such. During that time the tank can basically be kept up with HoTs.

 

 

Energy Shield is meant to support us through those rough times, such as Foreman Crusher's frenzy. If you time it right, you can have the shield up for every one of them, without using a spec like this. Using the shield as a go-to ability is attempting to turn Powertech into a Tankassin. We're just not built that way. You are giving up a ton of good threat generation and raw mitigation for a quirky shield that works some of the time...about 40% or so for the duration of a boss fight. As opposed to having awesome defense and threat generation for 100% of the fight, in addition to still keeping the shield for that extra boost when needed.

 

LOL either your Foreman Crusher is set on "Easy" mode, or my Foreman Crusher is bugged! When did you tank HM KP where the Foreman only went into Frenzy 2-3 times??! In any case, thank you for your input.

[Agooz]

You raise a good point, I was not factoring in the existing up-time of Energy Shield as a pure tank. However you make some mistakes in your napkin math.

 

On a 2-minute cooldown you will only use Energy Shield twice in a 5-minute fight. Even in a 6-minute fight you will only use it twice as using it out the gate is a waste when healers are at full resources and already over-healing you, and you risk not being able to squeeze a 3rd use in anyway. Regardless, 2x15 seconds = 30 seconds in a 300 second fight for average mitigation of 2.5%. The net gain of the Bubble Tank spec is therefore ~5.5% damage reduction.

 

Also to clarify, 6% shield chance and 8% absorb give more mitigation the higher your base shield and absorb. Assuming 50% shield and 50% absorb, the additional 6% and 8% gain an extra ~0.075 mitigation. You can do this using the mitigation formula mitigation=(1-((1-avoid)*(1-DR)*(shield*(1-absorb)+(1-shield)))). So it will gain you 6-8% extra mitigation in high end gear.

 

Additionally, I did not "resist" a single attack from Zorn or Stormcaller, and 100% of their elemental attacks "hit" me. I am unsure whether the 4-piece Supercommando bonus works at ALL vs elemental damage.

 

So yes, on pure physical damage fights it will probably be a mitigation loss. Depending on RNG, of course. On elemental fights, it will be probably be a 1-2% mitigation boost. Or 3-4% depending on how "resist" works.

 

This is where I see the greatest potential for this spec in HM operations:

1) Energy Shield is guaranteed damage reduction. You are not relying on shield or defense CHANCE.

2) Energy shield protects against all damage types.

 

When reviewing my logs of HM EC, I confirmed that Zorn and Stormcaller both seem to do 100% elemental damage. I did not shield (referred to as "glance") a SINGLE attack from either of them. All of my sky-high shield and absorb rating was worth NOTHING when tanking those bosses. On the other hand, vs Toth and Firebrand I glanced a significant number of attacks. Nonetheless, my overall "avoidance %" was something like 15%!!! That's with 52% Shield Chance, ~60% (heat screened) absorb and ~12% dodge, AND popping Oil Slick on cooldown.

 

So yeah, I am really thinking that having more uses of a longer Energy Shield will actually provide significantly more ACTUAL mitigation than 6% shield, 8% absorb and 2% defense on some fights. On my list of the hardest operation bosses (ones where healers actually have trouble healing me) are:

NiM Soa (100% elemental damage that I have practically no mitigation vs., combined with RNG from lightning balls)

NiM Jarg/Sorno (if I am the tank on Jarg his elemental damage combined with his debuff hurts hard)

HM EC (comparing damage taken with the Assassin tank swapping with me in my guild who has much less gear than I do is painful. he takes significantly less damage from Zorn for example, and ~60% of my damage is from Zorn despite more time spent tanking Toth)

 

Anyway sorry for this egregiously long post.

 

TL;DR - The Bubble Tank will be tougher vs elemental damage, but weaker vs physical damage. Since IMO the tougher fights are elemental ones, and PT tanks already have significant mitigation vs physical damage this build could make us a better overall tank.

 

Great info and feedback. Hec dual spec, one full ST and the other the Bubble, we can adapt to any tanking situation. I am getting my tanking set in order now, focusing more on +shield stats than before. This spec gives more reason to keep stacking shield/absorb instead of opting for defense later on, I think.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Agooz

[Jefficous]

After reading 4 pages of this post i decided to give the Bubble tank spec a try. I have tryed this once before in one wz match. I missed Jet Charge so much i switched back to ST after one wz. But after reading all the comments about it i tested it. I grouped with my wife who is a Operative healer. We did 2 Belsavis heroic dailyes and HM BP.I wanted to do FE but couldent get a group for it.

 

What I found: Aggro- Aggro was no problem tho i never rly had a problem with aggro. I noticed the IM halped alot with dps. Sence 1 point of damage =1 threat and with the tank stance thats 1.5 threat per point of damage so the 1.8k dot from IM gives u 3.6k threat and on top of the dot procked by IGC. I litarly walked away from the jedi boss in HM BP took a emergancy bio and still had aggro when i came back.

 

What I found: Damage Output-damage was about the same as full ST IMO i felt Bubble tank had more dps output in boss fight havent parsed it i willbe parsing damage of this spec tonight. On a negative note DPS in CGC was actualy about the same as in IGC. So end note DPS about the same in both builds. Bubble tank may put out more damage during boss fights do to dots from IM and IGC.

 

what i found: Heat- it took awhile to get use to but i found a rotation that allowed for low heat consumption. Start off with IM>Rail shot>"at this point you should of closed the gap, no Jet charge =(" RP>Explosive dart>Unload>flame thrower"Compined with thermal sensor is availible" >More RP> Flame burst for filler in CD's. If your heat gets to high from poor managment sprinkle in 2 of the basic attack. I specd for the 30 sec cool down to vent heat tho i will probably do 1 point i didnt use it that much.

 

what i found: Mitigation- heres the big part. Let me start of by saying the belsalvis heroics and HM BP were a bit below me and my healers gear lvl IMO.(Both most rakata with a peice or 2 of columni) Having my healer sitting next to me allowed for cordination of when my shield was rdy. From her standpoint she felt the healing was noticibly easyer. we were able to take on 2 good size heroic mobs and belsalvis and win with little sweat. She said she didnt notice to much more damage taken when my bubble was on cd. from the 6% less shield, up to 8% absorption and 2% mitigation. wasent to bad from the runs we did.

 

My stats 31 Point Shield Tech: Health=22.23k W/BH buff, Armor Mitigation=52%, Defence=16% Shield Chance= 46%, Absorption=42%(50% with heat screen buff, 63% with absorption trinket proc+heatscreen)

 

My stats Bubble tank:Health=22.4k W/BH Buff, Armor mitigation=50%, Defence=16%, shield chance=40%, Absorption=42%(55% with proc from absorption trinket)

 

End state : I was surprised how wellit did i was totaly counting this build out. With thati feel i need to try harder content with it and iwant to parse the damage. Hope this inspired more people to try the build. It would be cool if we had a viable hybrid tanking spec to break up the monotney of everyone having the same tanking build.Maybe this build makes a great off-tank with more testing we will find were this build stands. Thanks for your time yall!

Edited April 28, 2012 by Jefficous

[Agooz]

 

What I found: Damage Output-damage was about the same as full ST IMO i felt Bubble tank had more dps output in boss fight havent parsed it i willbe parsing damage of this spec tonight. On a negative note DPS in CGC was actualy about the same as in IGC. So end note DPS about the same in both builds. Bubble tank may put out more damage during boss fights do to dots from IM and IGC.

 

 

End state : I was surprised how wellit did i was totaly counting this build out. With thati feel i need to try harder content with it and iwant to parse the damage. Hope this inspired more people to try the build. It would be cool if we had a viable hybrid tanking spec to break up the monotney of everyone having the same tanking build.Maybe this build makes a great off-tank with more testing we will find were this build stands. Thanks for your time yall!

 

Thank you very much Jefficous for the feedback. It TOTALLY sucks that I started this thread and still havent gotten the chance to test it. Kind of jealous.

Regarding Damage output, I am extremely surprised at your findings. Did you make any major changes in the points spent in Pyro? You still took the CGC enhancements, and PPA? I mean as a Pyro CGC alone amount to 25% of total damage output. I know we're missing the top end tiers, but still. When you switch to CGC, was it on the fly? You still had the shield and Tank gear on? or did you switch generators and put on dps gear?

 

Thanks again.

[Jefficous]

To clarify some things on my original post. When testing CGC i stayed in my tank armor i left my dps set in the bank. When testing the 2 stances i tried it without stance dancing. Tanking with this spec while stance dancing would be a good thing to try. Also to be fait i didnt test the dps as exstansivly as i did the tanking aspect. Downloading a parser now. Ill try and get some hard numbers up tonight.

 

My version of the build is (19/0/22)

Edited April 28, 2012 by Jefficous

[Agooz]

To clarify some things on my original post. When testing CGC i stayed in my tank armor i left my dps set in the bank. When testing the 2 stances i tried it without stance dancing. Tanking with this spec while stance dancing would be a good thing to try. Also to be fait i didnt test the dps as exstansivly as i did the tanking aspect. Downloading a parser now. Ill try and get some hard numbers up tonight.

 

My version of the build is (19/0/22)

 

Ahh I see a major issue which would lead to lower dps in CGC. I would totally take Bursting Flame over Integrated Cardio Package. That 3% health really doesnt do anything at all in my opinion. Also put at least another point in PPA. Whether you take it from Rapid venting, since you said you didnt feel it was needed, or completely skip degauss and get 3/3 PPA. Those 2 changes alone should boost DPS by alot. If we're wasting points in the Pyro tree to get Energy Rebounder, might as well spend them in a way that would benefit switching to CGC when needed. That's my thought on it.

[TheronFett]

Wrong...Wrong...Wrong...Wrong...

 

You know what, whatever. Guess I should've looked all that stuff up instead of trying to go off memory. Truth is, I don't care. Shieldtech works just fine for 99.9% of the tanking Powertechs out there, so if you want your bubble, have at it. More power to ya.

 

 

Thank you very much Jefficous for the feedback. It TOTALLY sucks that I started this thread and still havent gotten the chance to test it. Kind of jealous.

 

This is just full of LOL. All your theorycrafting and you haven't even tested it yourself yet.

Edited April 28, 2012 by TheronFett

[Agooz]

You know what, whatever. Guess I should've looked all that stuff up instead of trying to go off memory. Truth is, I don't care. Shieldtech works just fine for 99.9% of the tanking Powertechs out there, so if you want your bubble, have at it. More power to ya.

 

 

 

 

This is just full of LOL. All your theorycrafting and you haven't even tested it yourself yet.

 

If you dont care, and a full ST spec works just fine for you (which I am not doubting), and you havent bothered to look at this spec, and havent bothered looking up stuff rather than just throwing random false arguments, you havent bothered to test it out yourself, and didnt even bother to read the OP where I specifically said this is UNTESTED (In caps actually), then what are you doing in this thread? You're the one who came here and made yourself look bad with the things you wrote. I didnt say you were wrong based on my opinions. You were wrong on facts in a tree and an AC that you claimed you have experience with.

[Anavarra]

So, I'm a sucker for playing around with the target dummies these days, so I respecced to this build, threw on my tanking gear and decided to give it a try. My theory, based on how many DPS talents you're losing from a standard shield tech, and the more difficult heat dispersion due to losing Heat Blast and having to keep up Incendiary Missile, is that the Threat output will be significantly lower.

 

Now, for clarification, hitting a training dummy is not a proper gauge of true threat output while tanking. In a live fire scenario, heat dispersion will be better (due to Shield Vents) and threat generation will be better (due to Flame Shield). However, since both of these builds have those talents, we can assume that any increases in threat generation for either of them will be roughly equal. Technically, the Shield Tech will gain slightly more, because their Rocket Punches do more damage, but for the sake of equity and simplicity we'll ignore that.

 

So, how'd I do?

Well for starters, here's a parse of me beating the crap out of a training dummy in full tank gear, with a full Shield Tech Spec for about 6 minutes. I do pretty well, and I really hit my stride maintaining about 650 DPS. A couple of important things to note here:

- I'm not using any Heat Management cooldowns. I never engage TSO or Vent Heat.

- I'm not using any Damage increasing cooldowns. No relics/adrenals/Explosive Fuel.

- No buffs.

 

So then, I switched to the Bubble spec and tried again. Well, my first try didn't go so wel. Using the same restrictions, I managed to hit about 510 DPS once I really got a hang of it. The heat management was more rough than ST, and I stopped using Flame Thrower because I had trouble cooling down enough to use it.

 

So I decided, hey, let's give it another shot, but bring on the Heat Cooldowns! Vent Heat is supposed to help. Better, but not much. I manage to spike close to 600, but my average remains around 530.

 

So, one more go, but this time, I'll use heat cooldowns, and prioritize cooling down to use Flame Thrower more often. It's a bit better. I manage to lock in around 550.

 

So, overall, damage/threat seems to be significantly less than full ST. That's not really surprising, considering how many damage/threat talents this gives up for Incendiary Missile. Threat output in live scenarios will probably be sufficient for maintaining threat against average DPS, but you'll be shorting your team some DPS.

[QiBao]

I like this discussion, and the spec is certainly interesting. I won't use it because I have to have jet charge (yes, it's a core tanking talent and tankassins have their sprint instead).

 

However, i don't see the point of most of these anecdotes. Anecdotes for things like this are about how it feels, how you managed heat, etc... Saying that you took less damage (or more) is purely speculation.