pvp stat (expertise) - is it needed?

[DarthKhaos]

In my opinion it's not a valid concern. Those are two different mechanics, PVP and PVE. One participating in any of these facets of the game agrees that there are certain rules to it. Nobody always wipes in PVE, as there are no players in PVP that always lose. Probably the time needed to be spent to acquire War Hero/Campaign gear, assuming a statistical probability of success (be it in warzones or raids), would go in favour of PVE at the moment. Furthermore, as more as you progress in each of the tiers, the higher are your chances of success (even moreso in PVE, where most bosses up to Campaign tier can be powered through).

 

I really think getting over the possibility that a PVP "loser" gets "free epics" is not a big sacrifice for getting rid of this artificial and problematic gear separation.

I disagree with you there. Now I'm a PvPer @ heart and I can see it's a bad idea. Why? Because even though it doesn't happen much now you're going to get people going in getting one medal and afking to a win or loss doesn't matter to them to get their gear when they're alt tabbed or sleeping. I prefer players who learn the ropes through blood sweat and tears so when they do get the good stuff they can play better because let's face it gear isn't everything.

[Serbegorn]

PvP stat is needed to protect PvPers from raiders in raid gear.

 

Thread. This should have been locked after the first reply lol.

[Master-Nala]

Thread. This should have been locked after the first reply lol.

 

Except there is a myriad of ways to do that without a made up stat.

[eclipce]

I'm with ya.

Check out The Secret World, it looks good on paper and players are actually required to use their brain to solve quests. If it doesn't deliver, I will most likely take a very long break from MMOs.

 

Expertise is just another gear grind. It is NOT there to "protect" us from raiders. The bolster system is already in the game, I have a feeling it would be fairly easy to tweak it to normalize stats at 50. But then all the kiddie carrot chasing kids would cry because "y PvP if there no reward!!!???". I tell you why. Because it's fun.

Expertise and it's eq in other games are only there to make gear obsessed players tunnel vision on the next set of gear and keep paying their subs. Unfortunately it's going to stay like this until MMOs stop trying to attract generation WoW.

 

I've followed the game for some time and yeah it seems good on paper - it really does, but still sceptical.

- Beta key should solve that problem, pre-order or not *wich reminds me..*

 

It seems more sandboxy-ish to wich imho is a great thing. I cannot describe how much I like "free will" in mmos, and swtor have brought free will down to an all time low. Wich sucks, because I waited so long for this game - Star Wars, Sci-Fi, BioWare. Unfortunatley they just control+c all these numb features.

 

I'm stunned that BioWare did not invent or used one of their own character development systems they know in and out - Dragon Age, ME, Neverwinter Nights / KOTOR (d&d) etc.

 

- mhm, back on topic - rewarding a pure pvp player can be so incredible way more than a higher stat for pvp only.

[DarthKhaos]

I vote post of the year! I seem to be schizo.. (I'm Jill and Tim ) I love pvp, pve, rp and a good grind. I very much dont like to be forced down a path I rather not go for hours and hours and months and months.

 

Forced time sinks in a game is a poorly designed game - the game itself should be a time sink, a fun time sink.

I disagree with this also. You're not being forced down any path. You want to PvP you get PvP gear. Don't I have to craft to level my crafting skill? Why can't I make anything from any craft from doing synthweaving? I don't get why you expect the best PvP gear to be acquired outside of PvP. When players were calling for the best raid gear to be gainned through crafting there was an outcry. And no the best PvP gear isn't gained through crafting You get an empty shell with an augment through crafting you still need to PvP to get the other mods.

 

Also it has been pointed out you can get starting PvP gear off the bat with cash. You can't get starting raiding gear for cash. you got to run normals to get something decent to hit up the raids/hardmodes. How many people say it's sooooooo easy to get PvP gear so what's the problem with getting it?

[eclipce]

Thread. This should have been locked after the first reply lol.

 

think out of the box please, there is noting that dictates that high end raid gear should be even viable in PvP, or any gear for that matter if you stretch it.

 

CoD, MW, BF3 got the picture in their FPS series - add levels and builds and features to support your pew pew for more fun game play. Battlefield series with all their gaming content + these RP-ish features = great success.

Edited April 26, 2012 by eclipce

[Luminastik]

I think that expertise should only give an advantage, rather than be as game breaking as it is right now. There's no reason that someone in full rakata with some black hole gear should have to buy a blue set of gear, lose ~3k health as well as a ton of stats, just to even try and compete in a warzone. It makes no sense at all.

[Koensayr]

It's a complicated topic. There are generally three approaches to it from my stand point:

 

Ditch Expertise Gear

If you ditch expertise gear then everyone is fighting in PvE gear, which favors the endgamers who raid heavily. You'll still have gear differentials just like you do now, but there will actually be a larger gap to close in some cases.

 

Level the Playing Field

The other viable option is using the bolster system to level the playing field entirely. Take gear out of the equation and make it so every character of a certain class has the same stats no matter how he or she is geared. While this does level the playing field, maybe one person prefers to gear towards crit/surge, while another power/surge, another power/alacricity, and so on as there are a ton of gearing options, and while people do tend to stick to "cookie cutter" set ups, some of us do like to play outside of the box.

 

PvP Bonus Gear

Instead of a PvP stat you have PvP gear that has bonuses aimed and designed specially towards PvP. Ability enhancements, things of that sort. This is the compromise approach, still allows people to gear for PvP but doesn't make the person take less damage, or deal more, across the board.

 

Each has it's downsides. I'm personally not a great person to comment on this, I admit it, because I don't enjoy 50 PvP. It's the same problem I had in WoW with endgame PvP, the majority of the time it has very little to do with skill or knowing how to play your class, and much more to do with your gear. Can an undergeared character win? Of course, anyone can win any fight against anyone under the right circumstances, but the playing field is slanted towards those who put the time into it. Is there anything wrong with that? Depends on how you look at it. It's how it works in PvE, so why not? Others feel it shouldn't be about gear. While I do enjoy the underdog challenge the majority of the time, after a while it does get tiresome fighting the same uphill battle every match.

 

It's a complicated issue that's going to have a vast variety of differing opinions. Some will approach it logically, some will approach it emotionally, some will just troll because that's what they prefer to do.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Koensayr

[TheMunny]

No, but they DID add it for the same reason that BioWare did - it is the best thing for the subscription based MMO business model. Now players have to engage in TWO separate gear grinds to participate in two distinct areas of gameplay. These grinds mean time, time means active subscriptions, and that means money.

 

BioWare could make all the gear equal between PvE and PvP and just make it so people could get gear by playing the game however they choose. ArenaNet is taking this approach with Guild Wars 2, but then again, they have no subscription quota to feed. It's the same reason that everyone in a GW2 dungeon group receives loot they can use from their bosses. They don't need slot machine RNG to force you to come back week after week.

 

I'm enjoying SW:TOR, don't get me wrong. But at the end of the day, it is a business, and subscription based MMOs absolutely feature mechanics that are only in place to keep that subscription money flowing in. Specialized gear is one of those mechanics.

 

Here is a full article on the subject. PvP stats are a business decision, not a player experience decision.

 

Awesome article, and spot on IMO. Any games that want to clone WoW are going to be disappointed. WoW just happened to hit the market at the right time. People do not have the time to spend playing 6hrs a day or more. Kiddies that grew up on the WoW model are going to find games going the exact opposite of their epic epeen glory days.

[DarthKhaos]

If you remove the expertise then all the gear will be the same. Doesn't matter where you got it from PvE or PvP. The top end gear must be of the same level. The problem with that is one group will find the other group gets the gear too easy. Then people will start saying crap like well if you want it faster do <insert easier path here> instead. Then you have a bunch of disgruntled people playing something they don't want to be competitive in something they want.

 

That makes no sense.

 

You want to PvP you go PvP you want to PvE go PvE. It's just like crafting. I don't see anyone complaining that they leveled Cybertech and now they shouldn't have to level BioChem to make Biochem stuff they don't want to grind both out. They already put in the time.

 

~smh~

[Dartagon]

If you remove the expertise then all the gear will be the same. Doesn't matter where you got it from PvE or PvP. The top end gear must be of the same level. The problem with that is one group will find the other group gets the gear too easy. Then people will start saying crap like well if you want it faster do <insert easier path here> instead. Then you have a bunch of disgruntled people playing something they don't want to be competitive in something they want.

 

That makes no sense.

 

You want to PvP you go PvP you want to PvE go PvE. It's just like crafting. I don't see anyone complaining that they leveled Cybertech and now they shouldn't have to level BioChem to make Biochem stuff they don't want to grind both out. They already put in the time.

 

~smh~

 

I don't know, if you focus on doing the pvp dailies weekly you'll get your gear in a reasonable amount of time.

 

It's not a race? Is there some kind of top gear score ladder I don't know about?

[Vodrin]

Thread. This should have been locked after the first reply lol.

 

But it does not necessarily need to work that way. The way AoC did things at launch (well prior to the 1.05 patch) was better I think. They placed a heroic stat on raid gear that essentially buffed the gear in all PvE, and made it crap in PvP. There was no PvP gear at the time, so the best gear was obtained by running epic instances or by crafting and could be obtained quickly. Gear also was not a big factor in PvP. A skilled player could defeat a mediocre one fighting naked except for a weapon. That was still one of the best PvP experiences I have every had in am MMO, and their class balance was not as good as SWTOR. Vertical gear progression in PvP just has a lot of problems that are difficult to overcome.

[SWImara]

No, but they DID add it for the same reason that BioWare did - it is the best thing for the subscription based MMO business model. Now players have to engage in TWO separate gear grinds to participate in two distinct areas of gameplay. These grinds mean time, time means active subscriptions, and that means money.

 

BioWare could make all the gear equal between PvE and PvP and just make it so people could get gear by playing the game however they choose. ArenaNet is taking this approach with Guild Wars 2, but then again, they have no subscription quota to feed. It's the same reason that everyone in a GW2 dungeon group receives loot they can use from their bosses. They don't need slot machine RNG to force you to come back week after week.

 

I'm enjoying SW:TOR, don't get me wrong. But at the end of the day, it is a business, and subscription based MMOs absolutely feature mechanics that are only in place to keep that subscription money flowing in. Specialized gear is one of those mechanics.

 

Here is a full article on the subject. PvP stats are a business decision, not a player experience decision.

On one hand I appreciate when anyone decides to write on what they care about, on the other I think there are some serious flaws in dude's article (not least of which is the trendy GW2 messiah syndrome). The reason for resilience in games like WoW and SWTOR has in my opinion less to do with wanting people to stick around for more $$ than it does with the games ultimately revolving around nothing but gear. I'd say this opinion is supported by the fact that not all subscription model games see it as necessary, contrary to the author's assertion. The only way to really avoid this multi-track gear situation (at least the only one we've seen in games so far) is to either ignore it (making pvp players PvE for the best gear) or to stop making games that are all about grinding the next set of gear (not conducive to fun for PvE players).

 

Games in the past that have been really successful without this sort of system tended to be more sandbox type games where progression wasn't the end all be all of everything. Some of us like to think that games like Shadowbane or even SWG were god's gift to MMO play, but sandboxes are unpopular for a reason. I expect GW2 will take some hits among some of the converts once people start realizing that not everyone is actually God's gift to gaming and/or that balance issues exist even without gear.

 

I definitely intended to pick up GW2 some months ago, but as the game has grown nearer to release and the sea of trolls have crawled out form under their rocks to claim this game to be the next MMO-Moses I decided I'd rather pass. I've always told my pals that it's best to avoid a MMO for the first 3-5 months after it comes out, typically I told them this for want to avoid bugs and have a more enjoyable experience. Games like AoC and SWTOR however highlighted a new reason to wait 3-5 months, hopefully the d00ds who flock from game to game praising it until they decide it's "dead" and shift to pooping on it anywhere someone will listen, will be gone in that time so one might be able to actually enjoy the game on its own merits.

 

Note: I do not like expertise or similar systems I just don't see much option in games that are clearly gear focused. I definitely find the idea of having to swap gear to be effective in PvP or PvE totally obnoxious and stupid, but its unfortunately what we have at the moment. Until such time as stats have 0 impact on PvP or we see games where gear matters less in general, I think we're in for more of this trend.

[goulet]

its a mixed bag for me. On one hand it makes it so you avoid the pve issues in pvp, but its one of those things you have to have but once you have it, it isn't much of an improvement. Healing takes the cake in terms of the expertise buffs. The other buffs from expertise counteract each other, one buffs your damage while the other reduces the damage received. Your damage gets buffed by 20 % and your damage reduction is 17% so against similarly geared players its a 3% damage gain.

[DarthKhaos]

I don't know, if you focus on doing the pvp dailies weekly you'll get your gear in a reasonable amount of time.

 

It's not a race? Is there some kind of top gear score ladder I don't know about?

This is my point. If the PvP gear and the PvE gear is not of the same level then one group will have an advantage. So once the 2 sets of gear is on the same level then the argument or complaint (however you want to look at it) that one group can get the gear faster (or easier depends on how you look at it) than the other. Things will snowball from there.

 

By making gear achieved via PvP viable for only PvP and gear achieved via PvE viable only for PvE those who wish to do one just have to... you know... engage in that activity to get the gear to do that activity. I use the crafting analogy because it fits. You don't level cybertech and expect to make stims so why do you expect to PvE to be able to PvP better or PvP to be able to PvE better?

 

Let's also look at the changes in 1.2 they wanted to adjust the strength of healers in PvP. The changes to expertise did not affect the strength of healers in PvE. Without expertise they'd have to adjust healing as a whole and we all know how that's going to affect your raiding. Expertise allows them to tweak PvP without touching PvE.

Edited April 26, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Wefi]

Expertise needs to be reworked into more of a way of choosing what bonuses we want. Example I am a tank, i would like more Damage reduction. or i am a DPS, i want more Damage increase.

[Krayshawn]

Playing PvP for 6 years in a game with pretty much standardized gear (Guild Wars) leaves me with a pretty good perspective of the differences. I like the PvP stat because it gives me a reason to grind WZs. I don't just do it for Tittles ETC , i get benefits. As a tank i get to stack endurance and expertise. Providing better damage combined with mitigation is huge imo. Raid gear would be OP in PvP without expertise.

 

A PvP stat provides PvPers an advantage over the PvE who come in for varying reasons.

[Dinnake]

The problem with a PvP stat is that it scales too quickly. As you get better gear every stat is increased, including your PvP stat. So the top PvP gear not only has significantly higher expertise but will also have more endurance, more crit, more of your primary stat, etc. So those just starting are not only behind in Expertise but also every other stat, making the gear difference that much greater.

 

I do think there should be a PvP stat, but that stat should be a maximum number that is obtained with a full set of any PvP gear. So if someone was in entry level PvP gear they would have the same amount of expertise as someone in War Hero Gear. The other stats would be higher on for the War Hero gear though. This would still make basic PvP gear better than the best PvE gear. It would also not be a double benefit for those in War Hero gear. The other stat increase would be an advantage, but it wouldn't be so drastic that a skilled player couldn't overcome the difference.

[Terrorble]

The problem with a PvP stat is that it scales too quickly. As you get better gear every stat is increased, including your PvP stat. So the top PvP gear not only has significantly higher expertise but will also have more endurance, more crit, more of your primary stat, etc. So those just starting are not only behind in Expertise but also every other stat, making the gear difference that much greater.

 

I do think there should be a PvP stat, but that stat should be a maximum number that is obtained with a full set of any PvP gear. So if someone was in entry level PvP gear they would have the same amount of expertise as someone in War Hero Gear. The other stats would be higher on for the War Hero gear though. This would still make basic PvP gear better than the best PvE gear. It would also not be a double benefit for those in War Hero gear. The other stat increase would be an advantage, but it wouldn't be so drastic that a skilled player couldn't overcome the difference.

 

I wouldn't mind expertise so much if it were more along these lines.

[olagaton]

Needed.

 

It's needed to separate PvE from PvP.

 

Does it work to do that? Yes.

 

Is it the best system available? Probably not, but until someone can come up with a valid alternative, it's the best we have.