pvp stat (expertise) - is it needed?

[DarkHelsing]

This was actually a really good post but I couldn't help but think of a certain Friends episode when reading parts of it (bolded above).

 

lol, thanks.

 

I am inviting everyone to place a vote and voice how they feel, so I can attempt to tally the responses to hopefully get a better overall view about what is going on here.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=432304

[eclipce]

lol, thanks.

 

I am inviting everyone to place a vote and voice how they feel, so I can attempt to tally the responses to hopefully get a better overall view about what is going on here.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=432304

 

I want to add that this thread started initially in general but was moved here, but very interesting to see what people will vote - mostly pvp'ers

[DarkHelsing]

I want to add that this thread started initially in general but was moved here, but very interesting to see what people will vote - mostly pvp'ers

 

I am guessing that more players want things like Expertise to separate their gear, because the idea of having better gear to destroy someone not geared is way to cheat without cheating. Players that have played massive hard core pvp games know that gear separation causes more problems than it solves... but most people only know WoW and WoW clones.

Edited April 25, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[eclipce]

I guess that more players want things like Expertise to separate their gear, because the idea of having better gear to destroy someone not geared is way to cheat without cheating. Players that have played massive hard core pvp games know that gear separation causes more problems than it solves... but most people only know WoW and WoW clones.

 

and.. you pay rl cash for doing so in a game wich have.. 4 warzones on rotation with a q-timer instead of just playing one of many cool and good shooters like the Battlefield series - instant fun!

[Khoraji]

you cant possibly mean that grinding your aim in CoD and grinding viable gear in mmos are the same?

- cant learning your class, rotation, maps, tactics etc be enough in a mmo? I realize that some gear is needed but how you aquire that gear should be at your own discretion - a one commendation rule.

 

Besides, playing CoD online is ALL about player vs player interaction, and you dont pay for it. In mmos there are possibly a million fun things to do, but to even be ok in these aspects you are being forced to grind within that, and only that aspect.

 

Map knowledge in MMO is alot less important as the maps are usually much less complex...especially when there are only 4 to learn.

 

Class rotation can be learned from reading a forum post an 1 day of practice.

 

Tactics or teamwork can make or break a Warzone yes...but is that really enough to seperate the teams, especially in ranked wz? Maybe it is...maybe it isnt. I am of the opinion that it is not enough.

 

 

Also, I am pretty sure I paid 60 bucks for CoD, then 15 dollars every few months for the map packs. Not to mention the CoD Elite tracking stuff. I dont mind paying for a game . And you can't deny that MMO's add much more content over it's lifespan than any FPS/RTS.

[DarkHelsing]

and.. you pay rl cash for doing so in a game wich have.. 4 warzones on rotation with a q-timer instead of just playing one of many cool and good shooters like the Battlefield series - instant fun!

 

I'm already unsubbed, lol. I have some play time left, but yeah not paying for this game.

 

I think a gear progression game is fine, but this game had something more - the ability to manipulate gear to mix and match stats to accommodate different play styles. It wasn't to extreme, and allowed a player to customize their character beyond the set molds. But instead of embracing that amazing feature, instead of creating rewards based around that, instead of allowing gear paths to intermingle they add Expertise and destroy that. Prior to patch 1.2 it wasn't a giant issue, a player could still intermingle Mods and Enhancements, and Patch 1.2 decided to further separate that by putting Expertise in every slot. So many directions to go, and that was the chosen path by the DEVs.

[Khoraji]

I'm already unsubbed, lol. I have some play time left, but yeah not paying for this game.

 

I think a gear progression game is fine, but this game had something more - the ability to manipulate gear to mix and match stats to accommodate different play styles. It wasn't to extreme, and allowed a player to customize their character beyond the set molds. But instead of embracing that amazing feature, instead of creating rewards based around that, instead of allowing gear paths to intermingle they add Expertise and destroy that. Prior to patch 1.2 it wasn't a giant issue, a player could still intermingle Mods and Enhancements, and Patch 1.2 decided to further separate that by putting Expertise in every slot. So many directions to go, and that was the chosen path by the DEVs.

 

And judging by your Vote thread, they made the correct decision.

 

And they did embrace the mod system. They made it possible for us to switch out the armorings/mods/enhancments from other sets and other pieces to make our gear custom.

[hadoken]

And judging by your Vote thread, they made the correct decision.

 

And they did embrace the mod system. They made it possible for us to switch out the armorings/mods/enhancments from other sets and other pieces to make our gear custom.

 

'embrace' isn't exactly the term I'd use for what they did, considering all the limitations. We'll see how quickly (and in what method) they give us the ability to add augment slots to any orange instead of just the very limited crafting selection we currently have.

[FoxNemhauser]

The person without the gear should get better gear. The person with more power has played more/longer/won more games than the other guy and has been rewarded for it, as it should be in an RPG. Where is the competition at where two characters of the same class meet but there are no stat differences? It would be a tie every time once they both learn their class.

 

There is a fault in your logic. You are saying that the person with crappier gear should get a better gear, but that will eventually lead to a situation where both players have equal gear.

 

So why get that gear in the first place? Better to have a standarized gear from the get go as it eliminates the tedious grind.

 

 

Pve progression is different, you fight mobs that are manageable and you are rewarded with better gear that lets you fight stronger mobs (that grants you even better gear that lets you... and so on).

 

In pvp you are matched with people that can have any gear. You say that people with same gear (and skil) will have a tie. First of all - it's not chess and unless those two are both healers - there will be a winner and a loser (it will be a close one but still). However if people with way different gear meet - the winner is decided before the fight even begins.

 

That's not competitive. You learn nothing from someone who can barely scratch you. However you can learn something from a person that you've almost killed.

 

 

Oh and last but not least, if you think that RPG equals gear progression then you should really recheck what RPG stands for.

[DustomaticGXC]

Oh and last but not least, if you think that RPG equals gear progression then you should really recheck what RPG stands for.

 

This is a pretty ridiculous statement. RPG means "roleplaying game", right. And this is an MMORPG. Not an MMOPVPG. If you want identical stats, go play an FPS... oh wait, most of those have gear progression these days, too.

 

Trust me, if you're complaining that gear is holding you back, you'd suck at pvp even if everyone had the same gear.

[DarkHelsing]

And judging by your Vote thread, they made the correct decision.

 

And they did embrace the mod system. They made it possible for us to switch out the armorings/mods/enhancments from other sets and other pieces to make our gear custom.

 

That's not embracing it. They actually made it worse.

 

Prior to the Patch I was able to pull things from my Champion Pieces, my Rakata Pieces, and place them in my BM set to achieve my desired build. Now I can only swap BM pieces with BM pieces and WH pieces without gimping my toon out of Expertise.

[FalcoLombardi]

I'm not sure, I have a mix of gear, more so PvE. I think I only got a 5% boost from expertise. I looked at recruit since I started doing warzones more but I thought it lowered my stats too much to be worth it. I think a combination is best but that's just me

[hasdrabal]

I remember back in Vanilla wow that the PVE raiders were pretty much owning it up as they had the best gear in the game.

 

Players who primarily wanted to PvP pointed out (some might call it whining) that if someone wanted to primarily PvP why should they suffer a gear disparity in relation to someone who basically only raided.

 

In this game there is really 2 paths for gearing depending on what you prefer to do. You can WZ to get gear or FP/Ops to get gear. Whether I agree with how it is done or not I don't know, but it does seem counter intuitive that the best gear for PvP should come from end game PvE raids.

 

Is a PvP stat needed? I guess that depends on how you enjoy playing the game. People who enjoy the PvP aspect of it want to have their time and effort put into PvP'ing rewarded. I don't know that it's a bad thing to reward people in relation to how they play.

 

 

A PvP specific stat is completely unnecessary if you go by your breakdown of the issues with end game gear. The PvP stat directly affects how much damage only a player can do to YOU, while at the same time maximizing how much damage YOU can do to a player. The raid gear does not possess the same statistic, it lacks the former, and only provides the latter. This does nothing to even out the pvp gear and the pve gear, it simply creates a need to grid out "end game gear" for both your pve and pvp experience while at the same time creating a frustrating gaming experience from a pvp standpoint until such a time as you have acquired the top level pvp gear through said grinding.

 

Although this method has become the industry standard since EQ, EQ2, WoW etc have established it, I can tell you it's an archaic and poor method. It is laziness on behalf of the developers to stick with what "is current" in terms of pvp rewards.

 

What made this game's pvp fun sub level 50 (and I won't get into the disaster of the CC that exists, much like it was a disaster in warhammer) is that expertise did not exits on gear (well, nothing that everyone couldn't get by purchasing a weapon in the 40's). At level 50, however, the pvp experience goes from an arguable fun and challenging to a frustrating grind of getting rickrolled by top tier geared players that are rolling the OP class of the month ie: first it was operatives/smugglers (still is really), now it's snipers/gunslingers, sentinels/marauders, assassins/shadows. The divide is gone.

 

Take away expertise and allow for pvp gear that is equal in stats to the raiding gear available and you have solved your issues between the pvpers and pve'ers. Neither can claim that each others gear is better than the others and gives an unfair advantage. Of course keep the stat and you will always have a lack of equality between those who have time to farm it and those who don't. And no, you will never have a situation where everyone at end game has the top tier of pvp gear. Because game updates will always introduce another tier as time passes, once again to keep the cycle going and to continue to hide all the problems with pvp. Make the gear look different and unique to encourage farming both and above all make all the gear equal and the pvp experiences then comes down to player skill and class balance.

 

HOWEVER, the problem with this is the latter. Class balance. That takes effort and time on behalf of the developers. Years in fact. BUT, if you have a pvp stat that throws off the lack of class balance issues for you, then you can hide how broken both it and the CC issues are.

 

Look to GW2 for an idea of how to ensure pvp is skill based over gear based. IMO a gear based statistical game is a dead end for anything that is MMO, proof in support of this is how popular UO, GW and GW2 were and are and why next generation games are all going toward the model of player skill over player gear.

 

Some people have a need to feel elitist. Those will be the people who disagree with having gear be equal in stats. They believe player skill is determined by how much @ss you kick versus other non-geared players. in order to focus more on player skill with their given class/roll. However, imo, you will find a much larger group of people who are seeking a challenge of skill over a challenge of obtaining the best gear to ensure you have an advantage over everyone else. Give me skill over gear any day is what I will always be an advocate of. It's why FPS games, arcade fighting games and strategy games are literally the most popular games on the market. Aside from hacking programs, these games come down to player skill. Either you are better at the game than your opponent or you are not. And this skill comes in such a vast variety of ways - teamwork, flanking, out thinking, luring, ambushing, etc. ALL of this (at this stage of the MMO world) is lacking, but upcoming games such as GW2, archeage and terra are attempting to bring these aspects to life.

 

So, is a pvp specific stat needed? No, it's not even wanted honestly, but it's what we are stuck with in SWTOR and many games like it. The format serves to hide the problems in the game and to make everyone's online egos feel great when they obtain the best gear and faceroll those without it. That is supposed to be the reward for our time and money? The loyal MMO community of yesterday is aging and expecting more. Our time is limited between family, work and when you can, gaming. The pvp experience should never be one of grinding and frustration or you will lose those who have matured beyond that. The newer generation is fickle and lacks loyalty of any sort, you see them game hopping constantly from the next new flavour.

 

Eventually developers may come to the realization that there is a reason sports are so popular and celebrated in the real world and learn to incorporate what makes them so successful into their MMO games. Especially into the foundational concepts of MMO PvP. Sports are successful because they are founded on the principle of the equal playing field where a team/players skill determines the outcome of the game, not the clothing and equipment they wear.)When I say equal playing field I am referring to rules and equipment, the differences of player skill is deeply encouraged.) I am talking sports like football, soccer, hockey, basketball, baseball, volleyball, boxing, MMA, fencing, wrestling, figure skating, curling, sprints etc. Not motorsports, cycling and other sports where tweaking an engine and vehicles mechanics came make a huge impact on performance. These sports hold a universal set of rules and a standard of equipment that ensure the player excels not because of what he is wearing/using, but because of how good he actually is at the game and how talented he is in his own role vs others. THIS is what you developers need to incorporate into your future discussions of where to go with MMO's. Simple is better, with the added touch of what feels like a living and breathing world.

Edited April 25, 2012 by hasdrabal

[Unao]

/Sign me up for Needed!...

[DarkHelsing]

A PvP specific stat is completely unnecessary if you go by your breakdown of the issues with end game gear. The PvP stat directly affects how much damage only a player can do to YOU, while at the same time maximizing how much damage YOU can do to a player. The raid gear does not possess the same statistic, it lacks the former, and only provides the latter. This does nothing to even out the pvp gear and the pve gear, it simply creates a need to grid out "end game gear" for both your pve and pvp experience while at the same time creating a frustrating gaming experience from a pvp standpoint until such a time as you have acquired the top level pvp gear through said grinding.

 

Although this method has become the industry standard since EQ, EQ2, WoW etc have established it, I can tell you it's an archaic and poor method. It is laziness on behalf of the developers to stick with what "is current" in terms of pvp rewards.

 

What made this game's pvp fun sub level 50 (and I won't get into the disaster of the CC that exists, much like it was a disaster in warhammer) is that expertise did not exits on gear (well, nothing that everyone couldn't get by purchasing a weapon in the 40's). At level 50, however, the pvp experience goes from an arguable fun and challenging to a frustrating grind of getting rickrolled by top tier geared players that are rolling the OP class of the month ie: first it was operatives/smugglers (still is really), now it's snipers/gunslingers, sentinels/marauders, assassins/shadows. The divide is gone.

 

Take away expertise and allow for pvp gear that is equal in stats to the raiding gear available and you have solved your issues between the pvpers and pve'ers. Neither can claim that each others gear is better than the others and gives an unfair advantage. Of course keep the stat and you will always have a lack of equality between those who have time to farm it and those who don't. And no, you will never have a situation where everyone at end game has the top tier of pvp gear. Because game updates will always introduce another tier as time passes, once again to keep the cycle going and to continue to hide all the problems with pvp. Make the gear look different and unique to encourage farming both and above all make all the gear equal and the pvp experiences then comes down to player skill and class balance.

 

HOWEVER, the problem with this is the latter. Class balance. That takes effort and time on behalf of the developers. Years in fact. BUT, if you have a pvp stat that throws off the lack of class balance issues for you, then you can hide how broken both it and the CC issues are.

 

Look to GW2 for an idea of how to ensure pvp is skill based over gear based. IMO a gear based statistical game is a dead end for anything that is MMO, proof in support of this is how popular UO, GW and GW2 were and are and why next generation games are all going toward the model of player skill over player gear.

 

Some people have a need to feel elitist. Those will be the people who disagree with having gear be equal in stats. They believe player skill is determined by how much @ss you kick versus other non-geared players. in order to focus more on player skill with their given class/roll. However, imo, you will find a much larger group of people who are seeking a challenge of skill over a challenge of obtaining the best gear to ensure you have an advantage over everyone else. Give me skill over gear any day is what I will always be an advocate of. It's why FPS games, arcade fighting games and strategy games are literally the most popular games on the market. Aside from hacking programs, these games come down to player skill. Either you are better at the game than your opponent or you are not. And this skill comes in such a vast variety of ways - teamwork, flanking, out thinking, luring, ambushing, etc. ALL of this (at this stage of the MMO world) is lacking, but upcoming games such as GW2, archeage and terra are attempting to bring these aspects to life.

 

So, is a pvp specific stat needed? No, it's not even wanted honestly, but it's what we are stuck with in SWTOR and many games like it. The format serves to hide the problems in the game and to make everyone's online egos feel great when they obtain the best gear and faceroll those without it. That is supposed to be the reward for our time and money? The loyal MMO community of yesterday is aging and expecting more. Our time is limited between family, work and when you can, gaming. The pvp experience should never be one of grinding and frustration or you will lose those who have matured beyond that. The newer generation is fickle and lacks loyalty of any sort, you see them game hopping constantly from the next new flavour.

 

Eventually developers may come to the realization that there is a reason sports are so popular and celebrated in the real world and learn to incorporate what makes them so successful into their MMO games. Especially into the foundational concepts of MMO PvP. Sports are so successful because they are founded on the principle of the equal playing field where a team/players skill determines the outcome of the game, not the clothing and equipment they wear. I am talking sports like football, soccer, hockey, basketball, baseball, volleyball, boxing, MMA, fencing, wrestling, figure skating, curling, sprints etc. Not motorsports, cycling and other sports where tweaking an engine and vehicles mechanics came make a huge impact on performance. These sports hold a universal set of rules and a standard of equipment that ensure the player excels not because of what he is wearing/using, but because of how good he actually is at the game and how talented he is in his own role vs others. THIS is what you developers need to incorporate into your future discussions of where to go with MMO's. Simple is better, with the added touch of what feels like a living and breathing world.

 

Nice post. Would you mind if I snag you over to this thread to discuss with us?

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=432304

[FoxNemhauser]

This is a pretty ridiculous statement. RPG means "roleplaying game", right. And this is an MMORPG. Not an MMOPVPG. If you want identical stats, go play an FPS... oh wait, most of those have gear progression these days, too.

 

Trust me, if you're complaining that gear is holding you back, you'd suck at pvp even if everyone had the same gear.

 

I'm not complaning that gear is holding me back.

 

My main is full battlemaster and the only challenging fights are 2 vs 1 or some other battlemaster. I tear through people with 12-16k health. It's was fun at start but not anymore.

 

But my alt is not geared that nicely so there is the opposite - I get crushed a lot by battlemasters. This is also not fun.

 

So, it looks like i'm QQing that i'm too strong and too weak at the same time :-)

 

 

Somehow GW1 (CORPG) and GW2 (MMORPG) strayed away from gear progression in their PVP, so it is not something unheard of.

 

And there were some very old MMORPGs without gear progression but I've never played them so the names escape me.

 

Trust me, if you're complaining that gear is holding you back, you'd suck at pvp even if everyone had the same gear.

 

So if I hit someone for 5k and he hits me with the same ability for 3k then I own but if I hit him for 3k while he hits me for 5k then I suck at gaming? Interesting :-)

 

 

If you want identical stats, go play an FPS... oh wait, most of those have gear progression these days, too.

 

Yes, and those shooters are crappy because of that. That's why I play sometimes Counter-Strike 1.6 (and hope to play CS:GO soon) instead.

[eclipce]

A PvP specific stat is completely unnecessary if you go by your breakdown of the issues with end game gear. The PvP stat directly affects how much damage only a player can do to YOU, while at the same time maximizing how much damage YOU can do to a player. The raid gear does not possess the same statistic, it lacks the former, and only provides the latter. This does nothing to even out the pvp gear and the pve gear, it simply creates a need to grid out "end game gear" for both your pve and pvp experience while at the same time creating a frustrating gaming experience from a pvp standpoint until such a time as you have acquired the top level pvp gear through said grinding.

 

Although this method has become the industry standard since EQ, EQ2, WoW etc have established it, I can tell you it's an archaic and poor method. It is laziness on behalf of the developers to stick with what "is current" in terms of pvp rewards.

 

What made this game's pvp fun sub level 50 (and I won't get into the disaster of the CC that exists, much like it was a disaster in warhammer) is that expertise did not exits on gear (well, nothing that everyone couldn't get by purchasing a weapon in the 40's). At level 50, however, the pvp experience goes from an arguable fun and challenging to a frustrating grind of getting rickrolled by top tier geared players that are rolling the OP class of the month ie: first it was operatives/smugglers (still is really), now it's snipers/gunslingers, sentinels/marauders, assassins/shadows. The divide is gone.

 

Take away expertise and allow for pvp gear that is equal in stats to the raiding gear available and you have solved your issues between the pvpers and pve'ers. Neither can claim that each others gear is better than the others and gives an unfair advantage. Of course keep the stat and you will always have a lack of equality between those who have time to farm it and those who don't. And no, you will never have a situation where everyone at end game has the top tier of pvp gear. Because game updates will always introduce another tier as time passes, once again to keep the cycle going and to continue to hide all the problems with pvp. Make the gear look different and unique to encourage farming both and above all make all the gear equal and the pvp experiences then comes down to player skill and class balance.

 

HOWEVER, the problem with this is the latter. Class balance. That takes effort and time on behalf of the developers. Years in fact. BUT, if you have a pvp stat that throws off the lack of class balance issues for you, then you can hide how broken both it and the CC issues are.

 

Look to GW2 for an idea of how to ensure pvp is skill based over gear based. IMO a gear based statistical game is a dead end for anything that is MMO, proof in support of this is how popular UO, GW and GW2 were and are and why next generation games are all going toward the model of player skill over player gear.

 

Some people have a need to feel elitist. Those will be the people who disagree with having gear be equal in stats. They believe player skill is determined by how much @ss you kick versus other non-geared players. in order to focus more on player skill with their given class/roll. However, imo, you will find a much larger group of people who are seeking a challenge of skill over a challenge of obtaining the best gear to ensure you have an advantage over everyone else. Give me skill over gear any day is what I will always be an advocate of. It's why FPS games, arcade fighting games and strategy games are literally the most popular games on the market. Aside from hacking programs, these games come down to player skill. Either you are better at the game than your opponent or you are not. And this skill comes in such a vast variety of ways - teamwork, flanking, out thinking, luring, ambushing, etc. ALL of this (at this stage of the MMO world) is lacking, but upcoming games such as GW2, archeage and terra are attempting to bring these aspects to life.

 

So, is a pvp specific stat needed? No, it's not even wanted honestly, but it's what we are stuck with in SWTOR and many games like it. The format serves to hide the problems in the game and to make everyone's online egos feel great when they obtain the best gear and faceroll those without it. That is supposed to be the reward for our time and money? The loyal MMO community of yesterday is aging and expecting more. Our time is limited between family, work and when you can, gaming. The pvp experience should never be one of grinding and frustration or you will lose those who have matured beyond that. The newer generation is fickle and lacks loyalty of any sort, you see them game hopping constantly from the next new flavour.

 

Eventually developers may come to the realization that there is a reason sports are so popular and celebrated in the real world and learn to incorporate what makes them so successful into their MMO games. Especially into the foundational concepts of MMO PvP. Sports are successful because they are founded on the principle of the equal playing field where a team/players skill determines the outcome of the game, not the clothing and equipment they wear.)When I say equal playing field I am referring to rules and equipment, the differences of player skill is deeply encouraged.) I am talking sports like football, soccer, hockey, basketball, baseball, volleyball, boxing, MMA, fencing, wrestling, figure skating, curling, sprints etc. Not motorsports, cycling and other sports where tweaking an engine and vehicles mechanics came make a huge impact on performance. These sports hold a universal set of rules and a standard of equipment that ensure the player excels not because of what he is wearing/using, but because of how good he actually is at the game and how talented he is in his own role vs others. THIS is what you developers need to incorporate into your future discussions of where to go with MMO's. Simple is better, with the added touch of what feels like a living and breathing world.

 

not even going to *snip* this, I agree on so many fronts - a nice, no a very very nice post.

[hasdrabal]

Nice post. Would you mind if I snag you over to this thread to discuss with us?

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=432304

 

 

Thank you and not at all, feel free.

[Khoraji]

There is a fault in your logic. You are saying that the person with crappier gear should get a better gear, but that will eventually lead to a situation where both players have equal gear.

 

So why get that gear in the first place? Better to have a standarized gear from the get go as it eliminates the tedious grind.

 

 

Pve progression is different, you fight mobs that are manageable and you are rewarded with better gear that lets you fight stronger mobs (that grants you even better gear that lets you... and so on).

 

In pvp you are matched with people that can have any gear. You say that people with same gear (and skil) will have a tie. First of all - it's not chess and unless those two are both healers - there will be a winner and a loser (it will be a close one but still). However if people with way different gear meet - the winner is decided before the fight even begins.

 

That's not competitive. You learn nothing from someone who can barely scratch you. However you can learn something from a person that you've almost killed.

 

 

Oh and last but not least, if you think that RPG equals gear progression then you should really recheck what RPG stands for.

 

It doesnt have to be gear progression. Gear is just the easiest way to do this, they could just as easily give you +5 expertise for every valor rank (or something like that)

 

In other games, player skill is increased as you play more. In RPG's, you are role-playing a character, and that character's skills are improved as you play more(through better gear), not yours as the player.

 

PvP gear is there to reward people who have been playing the game for longer. They have given BW more money, they have put more time into their character, etc. They deserve a reward for time spent.

 

In our example we also said same class, as well as skill and stats. Which means the only difference between the two would be reaction time.

[eclipce]

It doesnt have to be gear progression. Gear is just the easiest way to do this, they could just as easily give you +5 expertise for every valor rank (or something like that)

 

In other games, player skill is increased as you play more. In RPG's, you are role-playing a character, and that character's skills are improved as you play more(through better gear), not yours as the player.

 

PvP gear is there to reward people who have been playing the game for longer. They have given BW more money, they have put more time into their character, etc. They deserve a reward for time spent.

 

In our example we also said same class, as well as skill and stats. Which means the only difference between the two would be reaction time.

 

well does not everyone deserve a reward for time spent, but it is a massive game with many features and all these time sinks in each and everyone just alianates the player base from all these aspects - seperating us? why? I LOVE pvp, but imho a pvp stat ruins pvp and a truly great feature that only mmos have and that is the means to create some epic world pvp - give me DAOC-ish RvR by the old scool mythic crew, no pvp stats and a one commendations system all over the game. You will be rewarded and use those rewards as you see fit.

[Terrorble]

Expertise is not necessary.

 

In a previous game, we had those who PvP'd, and those who PvE'd. Those who only PvP'd where finding they were at a disadvantage to the dedicated PvE crowd, because they were beginning to be out-geared. (I will note that while gear was a contributor, it is no where near as important as expertise seems to be in this game) Whining and bickering commenced. We did two things: you could win special modification crystals thru PvP to improve regular gear to be nearly competitive with top-tier gear. And, winning PvP encounters gave you points on an inventory item that could be used in PvE to increase the chances of getting rare and powerful stuff from NPCs.

 

I could never solve the problem of those who play non-stop steamrolling those who casually played, but this was as close to it as I could get. I also had issues of kill trading, but I've heard that happened on Ilum quite a bit here too. Difference is, a game we pay for might be able to police that better.

 

Expertise creates a divide for me from being able to enjoy PvP. When I log in, sometimes I want to PvE, follow the story, craft, discover what's out there, and sometimes I want to PvP. Problem is, since I divide my time, I go into WZs at an expertise disadvantage. Since this game is so gear dependant, I don't have much fun dealing considerably less damage, and taking considerably more. (less of an issue up thru level49, much more 50+).

 

So, is expertise needed? No, there are other ways to reward the PvP crowd and still let everyone participate.

[KorinHyvek]

Needed? Not really. But it would require the system to be redesigned.

 

Alternative 1: PvP and PvE gear become the same. THe problem here is if it is "harder" to get gear through PvE in this system (or vice versa), you get a lot of complaining.

Alternative 2: Do away with Gear Progression. I think this might actually be the right path, but it's a big shift and its not something I see many major MMOs attempting any time soon.

[Goretzu]

No, but they DID add it for the same reason that BioWare did - it is the best thing for the subscription based MMO business model. Now players have to engage in TWO separate gear grinds to participate in two distinct areas of gameplay. These grinds mean time, time means active subscriptions, and that means money.

 

BioWare could make all the gear equal between PvE and PvP and just make it so people could get gear by playing the game however they choose. ArenaNet is taking this approach with Guild Wars 2, but then again, they have no subscription quota to feed. It's the same reason that everyone in a GW2 dungeon group receives loot they can use from their bosses. They don't need slot machine RNG to force you to come back week after week.

 

I'm enjoying SW:TOR, don't get me wrong. But at the end of the day, it is a business, and subscription based MMOs absolutely feature mechanics that are only in place to keep that subscription money flowing in. Specialized gear is one of those mechanics.

 

Here is a full article on the subject. PvP stats are a business decision, not a player experience decision.

 

 

I imagine there's an element of that.

 

But the reality is unless you designe a system for PvP (like WAR) you end up having to fudge stuff, this is why EQ1 ended up having to nerf abilities for PvP combat that were fine in PvE combat.

[Senefera]

Think I'm going sick of mmos, they have turned out to be as numb, shoe-horned, generic and wow-ish as possible..

 

I'm with ya.

Check out The Secret World, it looks good on paper and players are actually required to use their brain to solve quests. If it doesn't deliver, I will most likely take a very long break from MMOs.

 

Expertise is just another gear grind. It is NOT there to "protect" us from raiders. The bolster system is already in the game, I have a feeling it would be fairly easy to tweak it to normalize stats at 50. But then all the kiddie carrot chasing kids would cry because "y PvP if there no reward!!!???". I tell you why. Because it's fun.

Expertise and it's eq in other games are only there to make gear obsessed players tunnel vision on the next set of gear and keep paying their subs. Unfortunately it's going to stay like this until MMOs stop trying to attract generation WoW.

[Bazzoong]

It is needed.