pvp stat (expertise) - is it needed?

[eclipce]

pvp stat (expertise) - is it needed?

 

I'd like to know what people think of a pvp stat vs not a pvp stat - pros and cons.

 

Nearly all I've talked with and played with think that pvp stats in mmos is just nonsense and ruins a lot of game features and I agree 110% - Most notably it ruins the random open world pvp in mmos and peoples "lust" to enter warzones and re-grind gear when they add new tiers. Gonna add here that these people and I are loving pvp in general no matter what game and setting.

 

I was thinking about returning to AoC and have me some bloody pvp, but they wont get my cash because of the pvp-grind - and that again would limit my gametime from exploration of the pve game.

 

There must be other ways to reward pvp'ers? I know I dont need to be rewarded with a pvp stat be it mmos or shooters or whatever.

[ConradLionhart]

PvP stat is needed to protect PvPers from raiders in raid gear.

[Drakkip]

I remember back in Vanilla wow that the PVE raiders were pretty much owning it up as they had the best gear in the game.

 

Players who primarily wanted to PvP pointed out (some might call it whining) that if someone wanted to primarily PvP why should they suffer a gear disparity in relation to someone who basically only raided.

 

In this game there is really 2 paths for gearing depending on what you prefer to do. You can WZ to get gear or FP/Ops to get gear. Whether I agree with how it is done or not I don't know, but it does seem counter intuitive that the best gear for PvP should come from end game PvE raids.

 

Is a PvP stat needed? I guess that depends on how you enjoy playing the game. People who enjoy the PvP aspect of it want to have their time and effort put into PvP'ing rewarded. I don't know that it's a bad thing to reward people in relation to how they play.

[GeckoOBac]

I remember back in Vanilla wow that the PVE raiders were pretty much owning it up as they had the best gear in the game.

 

Players who primarily wanted to PvP pointed out (some might call it whining) that if someone wanted to primarily PvP why should they suffer a gear disparity in relation to someone who basically only raided.

 

In this game there is really 2 paths for gearing depending on what you prefer to do. You can WZ to get gear or FP/Ops to get gear. Whether I agree with how it is done or not I don't know, but it does seem counter intuitive that the best gear for PvP should come from end game PvE raids.

 

Is a PvP stat needed? I guess that depends on how you enjoy playing the game. People who enjoy the PvP aspect of it want to have their time and effort put into PvP'ing rewarded. I don't know that it's a bad thing to reward people in relation to how they play.

 

Common sense and good judgement are so rare these days that I felt the need to compliment you. Bravo!

 

This guy has got it right. And besides, as it always happens, once a new tier is introduced, the others become slightly easier to obtain. Now the entry level set for pvp is much easier to obtain than what used to be, so even PVE guys can access pvp with the right stats while still not being on par with the guys that primarily do pvp.

Win - Win imho.

Edited April 25, 2012 by GeckoOBac

[Satanski]

PvP stat is needed to protect PvPers from raiders in raid gear.

 

Hehe, didnt know pvpers need protection from people they call "carebears"

 

 

[...]

In this game there is really 2 paths for gearing depending on what you prefer to do. You can WZ to get gear or FP/Ops to get gear. Whether I agree with how it is done or not I don't know, but it does seem counter intuitive that the best gear for PvP should come from end game PvE raids.

 

Is a PvP stat needed? I guess that depends on how you enjoy playing the game. People who enjoy the PvP aspect of it want to have their time and effort put into PvP'ing rewarded. I don't know that it's a bad thing to reward people in relation to how they play.

 

Unfortunately it only hurts pepole who like both pvp and pve. I think this is just another time sink - you have to grind both pvp and pve gear. They could make all gear have separate stats for pvp and pve, and let people obtain it the way they choose. I, personally wont do WZs becouse they are too repetitive. Becouse of this ill never have good pvp gear, and will be gimped in my favourite pvp activity - random open world pvp. Thanks god they introduced recruit gear, but still i don tlike having two sets of gear for both pvp and pve.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Satanski

[ConradLionhart]

Hehe, didnt know pvpers need protection from people they call "carebears"

 

That's pretty funny now that you mention it. Though I think that term is more in Eve Online.

[amnie]

Hehe, didnt know pvpers need protection from people they call "carebears"

 

lol

[eclipce]

Some good input, thanks!

 

What if there was no pvp stat in gear, but in your valor and keep it more toned down and more intricate and trough tons and tons of pvp you could eventually get enough resources to get your hands on raid-ish gear?

 

Tons and tons of pve and you get a valor-ish rank to boost you in FP/OPs?

 

In my perfect mmo world there would be do whatever you want, do it enough and you will get your hands on common high-end gear, vanity stuff etc etc. It will of/c be a grind, but you can choose your own grind - atleast have some variation instead of a tedious and incredible boring "dailies" system

 

- went off topic here lol

 

What if stats except your spec was completely tossed out the window in pvp?

Edited April 25, 2012 by eclipce

[Drakkip]

Hehe, didnt know pvpers need protection from people they call "carebears"

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately it only hurts pepole who like both pvp and pve. I think this is just another time sink - you have to grind both pvp and pve gear. They could make all gear have separate stats for pvp and pve, and let people obtain it the way they choose. I, personally wont do WZs becouse they are too repetitive. Becouse of this ill never have good pvp gear, and will be gimped in my favourite pvp activity - random open world pvp. Thanks god they introduced recruit gear, but still i don tlike having two sets of gear for both pvp and pve.

 

I don't know that there is a perfect system. In other games I have played the best gear was player crafted / enchanted. I don't think there is a perfect solution to it, however, there is a choice you can make in how you play.

[Goretzu]

pvp stat (expertise) - is it needed?

 

I'd like to know what people think of a pvp stat vs not a pvp stat - pros and cons.

 

Nearly all I've talked with and played with think that pvp stats in mmos is just nonsense and ruins a lot of game features and I agree 110% - Most notably it ruins the random open world pvp in mmos and peoples "lust" to enter warzones and re-grind gear when they add new tiers. Gonna add here that these people and I are loving pvp in general no matter what game and setting.

 

I was thinking about returning to AoC and have me some bloody pvp, but they wont get my cash because of the pvp-grind - and that again would limit my gametime from exploration of the pve game.

 

There must be other ways to reward pvp'ers? I know I dont need to be rewarded with a pvp stat be it mmos or shooters or whatever.

 

 

 

 

You don't have to have PvP stats, but then you do need to design your system to cope with it (WAR/EQ1 - EQ1 didn't cope with it well, but had a lot of PvP only conditions)

 

 

SWTOR isn't designed that way, so much like WoW a PvP stat is probably the least worse option.

[Goretzu]

Hehe, didnt know pvpers need protection from people they call "carebears".

 

The issue is that PvE gear becomes the best for PvE and PvP.

 

But usually MMORPG designers won't let top PvP gear be equally as good for PvE as top PvE gear.

 

 

 

So you end up with a serious inequality, as you did in WoW till resilience was introduced, and either way you end up with a vast amount of whining (Blizzard didn't introduce resillience for their own fun).

[Vitalis]

Erikson in last interview stated that expertise is primary star in SWTOR when it comes to PVP.

Af far as i unnderstood lvl 11 char in Recruit Gear should own 49 lvl char in basic raiding gear on WZ.

 

So yea....it is important.

[Maggok]

Blizzard didn't introduce resillience for their own fun.

 

No, but they DID add it for the same reason that BioWare did - it is the best thing for the subscription based MMO business model. Now players have to engage in TWO separate gear grinds to participate in two distinct areas of gameplay. These grinds mean time, time means active subscriptions, and that means money.

 

BioWare could make all the gear equal between PvE and PvP and just make it so people could get gear by playing the game however they choose. ArenaNet is taking this approach with Guild Wars 2, but then again, they have no subscription quota to feed. It's the same reason that everyone in a GW2 dungeon group receives loot they can use from their bosses. They don't need slot machine RNG to force you to come back week after week.

 

I'm enjoying SW:TOR, don't get me wrong. But at the end of the day, it is a business, and subscription based MMOs absolutely feature mechanics that are only in place to keep that subscription money flowing in. Specialized gear is one of those mechanics.

 

Here is a full article on the subject. PvP stats are a business decision, not a player experience decision.

[R_Lampkin]

Would a potential approach be to allow you to convert WZ Comms or Ranked WZ Comms for the appropriate PVE equivalent at a 30:10 ratio (or something along this line)? This process was in place previously for the Merc comms and there now for obtaining Ranked WZ comms.

 

It still carries over the grind, but if someone's main game play style is PVP, it still allows them to eventually grind out that PVE gear if they want after they have nothing left to gind for on the PVP end.

 

You could have the same converstion for the PVE comms into PVP to make it fair on both ends. Just a thought.

[eclipce]

hm, this got moved to the pvp section - now only those with a more than common interest in pvp will find this *sigh*

 

As said, it is business and they want active subscriptions, force us to do things over and over again, but omg.. why use that boring formula in all aspects.

 

AoC is F2P and numerous other games are F2P with a healthy and fun pvp but they still have the pvp stat, and I can only imagine how many players who tought what I did when condisering returning to a game and basically grind your way up again or continue where you left to experience end game pvp - not playing

 

One way to change it all around is to basically scrap all commendations as we know it and introduce one, and with that you can buy pve, pvp, social (rp), vanity etc etc from specific vendors - Balance the amounts of commendations you get from finishing something based on time spent and the difficulty.

 

Think I'm going sick of mmos, they have turned out to be as numb, shoe-horned, generic and wow-ish as possible..

Edited April 25, 2012 by eclipce

[pwnshoppe]

the problem in other games was that pvpers had to pve to get the best gear for PvP, which doesnt make sense.

[eclipce]

No, but they DID add it for the same reason that BioWare did - it is the best thing for the subscription based MMO business model. Now players have to engage in TWO separate gear grinds to participate in two distinct areas of gameplay. These grinds mean time, time means active subscriptions, and that means money.

 

BioWare could make all the gear equal between PvE and PvP and just make it so people could get gear by playing the game however they choose. ArenaNet is taking this approach with Guild Wars 2, but then again, they have no subscription quota to feed. It's the same reason that everyone in a GW2 dungeon group receives loot they can use from their bosses. They don't need slot machine RNG to force you to come back week after week.

 

I'm enjoying SW:TOR, don't get me wrong. But at the end of the day, it is a business, and subscription based MMOs absolutely feature mechanics that are only in place to keep that subscription money flowing in. Specialized gear is one of those mechanics.

 

Here is a full article on the subject. PvP stats are a business decision, not a player experience decision.

 

btw, that article was a little nice read, I was not planning to playing GW2 but now I have to think twice about that.

 

What happened to "created by gamers for gamers" in the genre? - oh.. dont answer.. money

Edited April 25, 2012 by eclipce

[me_unknown]

Hehe, didnt know pvpers need protection from people they call "carebears"

-.-

 

it needs protection for infinite grinding and pve raiders owning with a big gear advantage. though that we currently have a pve stagnation does not contradicts this. it is only because the game currently is only played for pvp (mostly).

 

 

Unfortunately it only hurts pepole who like both pvp and pve.

no it does not!

you like pve? then play pve. while you play pve you will get your pve gear.

 

but you seem to lie yourself. you want to jump into pve end game with your pvp gear.

 

expertise is not needed. expertise in general is a must have!

[Lithy]

I don't mind it, I've played MMOs where you weren't viable in PvP unless you cleared the top end hardest difficulty setting and got the puff-a-lump shield of death hugz +74.2... etc. BM gear is fairly easy to obtain, just takes a little patience. Tionese gear is very fast to obtain, and Columni just requires patience again. It's not that bad imo.

 

Is my PvE gear isn't very tuned? No, because I don't enjoy grinding it over and over and over. I still have the default Rakata accuracy mods. Does it hurt my dmg a lil in PvE, maybe. But I'm still viable. To me gear is mostly about PvP, it makes you stronger in that so customizing and tuning and earning gear for that is something I enjoy. However it is painful when on a new 50 to get them the gear, but everybody had to do it. I deal with it ^_^.

 

Anyway I think it's a good idea to separate them and I like both PvE and PvP. However I'm happy enough to settle with base mods and only switch them about if I get lucky for PvE... some people I realize are more hardcore and may find that annoying.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Lithy

[broganthomas]

Yes, it's needed to keep PVE and PVP separate.

[Satanski]

-.-

no it does not!

you like pve? then play pve. while you play pve you will get your pve gear.

 

but you seem to lie yourself. you want to jump into pve end game with your pvp gear.

 

expertise is not needed. expertise in general is a must have!

 

To be honest i dont give a **** about those artificial acronyms. I want to experience the game world, learning, exploring, socializing and fighting whatever and whoever i feel the need to. I dont care about this or that gear either, unless im gimped too much witheout it. I dont care how other people obtained they gear as far, as they do it playing game.

 

And as i said, i dont like warzones so i have raiding and recruit gear.

 

Yes, it's needed to keep PVE and PVP separate.

 

Now, thats a great idea. Maybe they should make to clients then? Or maybe two different games?

Edited April 25, 2012 by Satanski

[hadoken]

The problems with this game (and it's a gear acquisition endgame issue in general) and removing that stat are two fold:

 

1. you have raiders 'steamrolling' people in pvp because of their gear (the coordinated/top raiders will have downed the content and acquired the loot faster than the top PVPers will have grinded out comparable stuff).

 

2. in the event that pvp gear is made more powerful than raid gear to compensate for #1, doing pvp for that gear becomes required to raid by the elites

 

Both of these of course are a non issue in an endgame that isn't focused on gear collection, but few MMOs if any are doing that anymore. They all take the easy road so often travelled instead.

[broganthomas]

To be honest i dont give a **** about those artificial acronyms. I want to experience the game world, learning, exploring, socializing and fighting whatever and whoever i feel the need to. I dont care about this or that gear either, unless im gimped too much witheout it. I dont care how other people obtained they gear as far, as they do it playing game.

 

And as i said, i dont like warzones so i have raiding and recruit gear.

 

 

 

Now, thats a great idea. Maybe they should make to clients then? Or maybe two different games?

 

Or just have a PVP stat, wait it's already there. If you don't want like WZ's then why are you here? Doesn't matter, we should totally take your advice.

Edited April 25, 2012 by broganthomas

[Satanski]

Or just have a PVP stat, wait it's already there. If you don't want like WZ's then why are you here? Doesn't matter, we should totally take your advice.

 

That were rethorical questions. It just means system that divides playerbase is bad.

And where am i exactly?

Edited April 25, 2012 by Satanski

[Nexdine]

No, it's not needed, unless the game is poorly designed.

 

It should be possible to get gear that's comparable via either raiding or PvP and neither should give an edge over the other. That would enable moving freely between raids or PvP without first running to the closet to find the other ugly outfit to replace your current ugly end-game outfit.

 

Forget about using the look you've crafted by finding the armor pieces you like, if you want to play in the high-end you'll wear the elf suit or the banana high priest outfit and like it.