Enraged Defense - revamp need

[Eommer]

someone else agrees that this ability is completely useless and needs to change?

special for pvp, useless

[Lockexxi]

It drains a bit to much rage. They were on the right track with it, but a bit more tweaking would be nice. Maybe 6% per tick every 2 seconds. Same healing, less rage required. Be nice if it were free like so many other defensive cooldowns out there, but let's be realistic about possible changes. Possibly remove the initial rage cost.

 

And of course if you aren't specced Vengeance it isn't really even useable right now. The short cooldown is nice, but the cost is a bit high at the moment. Either way, the class usually doesn't feel as sturdy as one might expect out of a name like "Juggernaut." It's doing pretty decent all around, but some more fine tuning could really polish things up.

[Eommer]

I would care with a high cost if the skills actually do something. The heal are really really low and makes no different. Yesterday after the post I was using that to really make sure. Even with full rage you NEVER see the heal help something. I mean, sometimes you see a really small increase on your health bar, but is soooo small that does not makes difference at all. Also I have a feeling that many dmgs are not triggering the heal.

They need increase the heal imho.

[Aikagi]

I used it quite a bit when I was Immortal in PvP. It's useless as Rage in most cases though due to it's high rage cost, even if you take the talent.

[Lockexxi]

I would care with a high cost if the skills actually do something. The heal are really really low and makes no different. Yesterday after the post I was using that to really make sure. Even with full rage you NEVER see the heal help something. I mean, sometimes you see a really small increase on your health bar, but is soooo small that does not makes difference at all. Also I have a feeling that many dmgs are not triggering the heal.

They need increase the heal imho.

 

Yeah, the heal is for really small amounts. I think the intent is that there are a lot of little ticks procced frequently so that it stalls your health bar from going down (as fast) more than being intended to actually heal you up. If that's the actual intent, then going for less frequent larger heals would be against the initial design. At which point I'd say just remove the rage cost on the ticks. Still don't see why it needs a rage cost at all aside from copying the WoW versions that spent rage for healing (but those didn't need to get hit every second to keep healing - and they were horribly inefficient too just like Enraged Defense), given almost every other defensive cooldown out there doesn't take up resources.

 

 

Between the talent in Vengeance to improve the ability and the baked in threat drop it's obvious it was intended to be a pvp cooldown without upsetting pve tanking "balance" too much (with a side benefit of being a minor "oh god" button if you somehow pull threat on scary stuff in pve as a dps). Can't make too many amazing defensive abilities in the dps tree for pvp or you just risk people using the tree for tanking instead of the actual tank tree - thus the threat drop.

 

 

Thinking about it a bit more, I wonder how Juggernauts would feel in pvp if it cost no rage (activation or per tick). 45s cooldown, 10 duration. It's no god mode button, but suddenly becomes something available quite often with no downside (like just about every defensive cooldown outside of Marauder's spend health for god mode cooldown) to make Juggs just a bit tougher to take down (massive focus fire aside).

Edited April 26, 2012 by Lockexxi

[Eommer]

well, like i said high costs does not bother me at all but I have to something happing.

If you are not Vengeance spec, the skill is complete useless imho, special as rage. Just spend your rage for nothing. Does not keep you health bar from dropping because the heal is soooo small that makes no difference. Serious, try take crap on pvp.

[Steele_dk]

Agree on many of the posts, if i didnt have the talent in vengance spec that buffs this new defensive ability i wouldnt use it. I dont use it because of the heal (300 a tick~) but i use it to get 15% reduced dmg and i always use it together with enrage otherwise im totally rage starved.

 

Should remove the initial cost and change rage spec talent to improve the heal a bit or longer duration maybe

Edited April 30, 2012 by Steele_dk

[JamieKirby]

Well, considering the fact that it doesn't heal for enough to warrent the rage cost or the hefty 45sec cooldown, considering that even a group of 4 normals do mroe damage per hit then what this thing heals, makes it a useless piece of crap to use, it doesn't save you, it just postpones the inevitable.

 

What they should have done is give the juggernaut/guardian a passive parrying/deflection ability at level 10 that gives you a parry rating equal to 25% of total strength, considering that melee in this game is severely gimped, the ranged classes are so much more protected then the melee classes and i am shocked that they haven't found this out yet, probably not fans of melee combat.

 

So far, what i have learnt in this game is that for a Juggernaut/Guardian to experience the base classes' story with as little stress of dying as possible, you have to spec as a tank, which totally goes against biowares' statement of any spec is viable and the class quests are fully solo-able, because if you are specced as any spec other then the defence/immortal tree, you HAVE to use your healer to JUST get by, while the other classes can spec in any tree they want and use any companion they want and still get the most positive experience.

 

Totally amazed this has yet to be discovered.

 

I am not sure what level 50 is like, because i have so far been unable to get a juggernaut up to level 50 or a guardian because it is so damn freaking underpowered in any spec other then the tank spec, they really do need to fix the class and soon, since its really the only class i want to play at endgame.

[FalcoLombardi]

I agree. I don't have a problem with it taking 4 rage to use. It's losing rage after each hit afterwards. Also doesn't need to get rid of threat so tanks can use it more effectively

[rweiowjerwei]

Initial Rage Cost - Perfectly fine

 

Rage per hit - Not fine

 

Healing - Mediocre, although it does total 30% ... Just costs all my rage =\

[rweiowjerwei]

So far, what i have learnt in this game is that for a Juggernaut/Guardian to experience the base classes' story with as little stress of dying as possible, you have to spec as a tank, which totally goes against biowares' statement of any spec is viable and the class quests are fully solo-able, because if you are specced as any spec other then the defence/immortal tree, you HAVE to use your healer to JUST get by, while the other classes can spec in any tree they want and use any companion they want and still get the most positive experience.

 

I went 1-50 as a Vengeance specced Juggernaut with Vette as my companion. Had very little trouble with anything.

[Cavad]

someone else agrees that this ability is completely useless and needs to change?

special for pvp, useless

 

 

 

Its amazing as vengeance and hybrid immortal. For full immortal and rage, its pretty bad however. Making deafening defense (at least the part that effects enraged defense) would make it good.

 

 

It just synergies so well with vengeance (deafening defense, and unyielding).

[Trueonezubi]

Well ive found it useful in immortal since the reduced rage costs and sweeping fury allow for it to last the whole ten seconds : )

 

As for the heal it is useful if you manage to pair it up with sonic barrier and/or ep (try the later), since you will actually get healed (otherwise its 3% armor for 4 rage).

[Schwarzwald]

its only useful in pvp when you are vengeance specced.

 

Other then that its still effectively worthless in immortal.

[MouldyCrow]

I find it pretty useful vengeance specced in shein form PvE on fights where the healer is busy.

 

Parsing the combat log on the operations test dummy I can maintain 1100 DPS.. Using it every 45sec on cooldown seems to make no difference to my DPS at all.

 

To me it only really shines when doing sustained DPS over a long period of time. In a LI final boss fight over 5ish minutes it healed me for 24000HP. Its not for Immortal spec tanking at all and its only going to be marginally sorta maybe but probably not OK in PvP.

[Vodrin]

I agree. I don't have a problem with it taking 4 rage to use. It's losing rage after each hit afterwards. Also doesn't need to get rid of threat so tanks can use it more effectively

 

I think the point of that was they felt the immortal tree gave enough survivability as is. The heal is pretty small though. Mine ticks for 384 a pop with my current gear. Not enough to make much of a difference in PvP. I'm vengeance spec though so I do use it for the additional damage deflection. That part is at least worthwhile.

[Krayshawn]

its only useful in pvp when you are vengeance specced.

 

Other then that its still effectively worthless in immortal.

 

Would it be useful while ball carrying? sounds like it has potential. lets say Juggy tank has 22k health, 3% per second would amount to 6600 hp by the end of it, if you maintain rage that is. Couple this with an absorb adrenal; it could provide quite the "fired" method (running through fire with.)

[Skwinkles]

I think the point of that was they felt the immortal tree gave enough survivability as is. The heal is pretty small though. Mine ticks for 384 a pop with my current gear. Not enough to make much of a difference in PvP. I'm vengeance spec though so I do use it for the additional damage deflection. That part is at least worthwhile.

 

384 of 2500 (which i would say is an average hit/crit) = 15%. It's a mitigation skill in a different form, it's not meant to heal you. I would agree with its less than useful nature in rage spec due to the resource cost, but if you're careful can still be used effectively.

 

In full immo spec it's great since you have the rage for it, the same for vengeance + the extra mitigation on top of the heal. This heals for even more with endure pain activated.

 

Try using it offensively, like right after you open up on someone and they go to counter you. You will find it will help you stay ahead in hp's. For a 45 sec CD ability it is awesome, just don't be careless with it.

[unicornfive]

Initial Rage Cost - Perfectly fine

 

Rage per hit - Not fine

 

Healing - Mediocre, although it does total 30% ... Just costs all my rage =\

 

It doesnt do 30% heal.

In 1v1, enemy will hit u once every 2 sec (cause of GCD and slow animations in most classes)

and dot dmg doesnt seem to affect it.

[unicornfive]

384 of 2500 (which i would say is an average hit/crit) = 15%. It's a mitigation skill in a different form, it's not meant to heal you. I would agree with its less than useful nature in rage spec due to the resource cost, but if you're careful can still be used effectively.

 

In full immo spec it's great since you have the rage for it, the same for vengeance + the extra mitigation on top of the heal. This heals for even more with endure pain activated.

 

Try using it offensively, like right after you open up on someone and they go to counter you. You will find it will help you stay ahead in hp's. For a 45 sec CD ability it is awesome, just don't be careless with it.

 

If you think its fine on vengeance tree with talent. i would ask you to check this :

http://www.torhead.com/ability/arJX2s8/cloak-of-pain

 

*Maras get it without talent

*No rage cost to activate

*Deals some low dmg back to attacker (though that low dmg is higher than vengeance dots -shatter)

*Doesnt drain rage

*Can last up to 30 sec (tripple duration with only 15 sec additional cd)

*20% dmg reduction instead of 15%

*If mara put low tier talent in it, it generates rage

*Another low tier talent for it, if speced, reduces the cd of that spell

 

Enraged defense, even talented is still quite bad for a defensive cd.

Edited May 1, 2012 by unicornfive

[Skwinkles]

If you think its fine on vengeance tree with talent. i would ask you to check this :

http://www.torhead.com/ability/arJX2s8/cloak-of-pain

 

*Maras get it without talent

*No rage cost to activate

*Deals some low dmg back to attacker (though that low dmg is higher than vengeance dots -shatter)

*Doesnt drain rage

*Can last up to 30 sec (tripple duration with only 15 sec additional cd)

*20% dmg reduction instead of 15%

*If mara put low tier talent in it, it generates rage

*Another low tier talent for it, if speced, reduces the cd of that spell

 

Enraged defense, even talented is still quite bad for a defensive cd.

 

You can't compare 1 skill from 1 class to another skill of another totally different class. If you're going to try to make comparisons, you have to compare the entire skill set. Saying cloak of pain is better than enraged defense is pointless since maras don't only have this skill and juggs don't only have enraged defense; it's only one part of the whole.

 

However, if we follow your logic, then comparing ED with a veng jugg to cloak of pain with mara there are some differences that stand in front such as cloak having 20% reduction, can last longer, less down time, etc, but if a veng jugg pops ED, he/she get's an extra 15% dmg reduction, plus the 5-15% mitigation from the heal (varying depending on the dmg received). This skill also has synergy with endure pain to make it more effective. And if you're going to add in the fact that talents can affect things, then we can also stack this extra DR with a 20% dmg reduction on a 15 second CD, which if needed can be immediately reset, and if you wanted to you could talent in to invincible.

 

Sorry, but different classes are exactly that; different. A lot of jugg's defense comes from mobility. We have charge, which can be reset once per minute, plus we have intercede; both on short CD's. A mara does not have that luxury, they are required to stay in your face. You could argue then that they have a 3 sec cloak to escape instead of intercede, but we can do this all day about everything. The classes are different and work differently. If I wanted a mara's skill set then I'll roll a mara. I happen to like the jugg's. And, within the jugg's skill set, enraged defense works well.

 

Even if you still think mara's have a better defensive cool down, that does not change the fact that enraged defense is still useful; which iirc after all of my rambling is all I was originally stating. We can't have every one of our abilities be super awesome and as good or better than everyone else's.

[Brightmist]

It's decent with the easy rage management of vengeance but rage spec has having issues keeping it up and has to start turtling pretty much when it's activated. Make it so that the activation is free in rage spec please so it'll be usable.

[Eommer]

Initial Rage Cost - Perfectly fine

 

Rage per hit - Not fine

 

Healing - Mediocre, although it does total 30% ... Just costs all my rage =\

 

exactly. for vengeance spec its good. but people on rage or tank spec is a useless skill.

[unicornfive]

You can't compare 1 skill from 1 class to another skill of another totally different class. If you're going to try to make comparisons, you have to compare the entire skill set. Saying cloak of pain is better than enraged defense is pointless since maras don't only have this skill and juggs don't only have enraged defense; it's only one part of the whole.

 

However, if we follow your logic, then comparing ED with a veng jugg to cloak of pain with mara there are some differences that stand in front such as cloak having 20% reduction, can last longer, less down time, etc, but if a veng jugg pops ED, he/she get's an extra 15% dmg reduction, plus the 5-15% mitigation from the heal (varying depending on the dmg received). This skill also has synergy with endure pain to make it more effective. And if you're going to add in the fact that talents can affect things, then we can also stack this extra DR with a 20% dmg reduction on a 15 second CD, which if needed can be immediately reset, and if you wanted to you could talent in to invincible.

 

Sorry, but different classes are exactly that; different. A lot of jugg's defense comes from mobility. We have charge, which can be reset once per minute, plus we have intercede; both on short CD's. A mara does not have that luxury, they are required to stay in your face. You could argue then that they have a 3 sec cloak to escape instead of intercede, but we can do this all day about everything. The classes are different and work differently. If I wanted a mara's skill set then I'll roll a mara. I happen to like the jugg's. And, within the jugg's skill set, enraged defense works well.

 

Even if you still think mara's have a better defensive cool down, that does not change the fact that enraged defense is still useful; which iirc after all of my rambling is all I was originally stating. We can't have every one of our abilities be super awesome and as good or better than everyone else's.

 

I compared cloak of pain with ED PLUS vengeance talent

But i guess u were to lazy to read whole my tiny post....

 

The healing of ED, is non existant....

U dont get heal every sec, u get every 2 sec when u 1v1 cause of GCD. In addittion, if enemy try to kite a bit, get cc'ed by u, etc., you get almost no heal....

I barely see by health bar go up on my jugg, and i barely see enemy jugg health bar go up when they use it...

 

Also i compared this defensive cd to the most similar cd of maras.

Ofc they got more ****** cds, like 99% dmg reduction for 5 sec, -90% accurancy debuff for 5 sec (can absorb whole enemy burst when played right...) Stealth with +mov speed and dmg reduction which is REALLY a lifesaving cds...i dont think any other class has similar, exept the 2 stealth classes in game that have combat stealth on cd . And it can also work as offensive cd ( You fully dot enemy, then u use that stealth to minimize the dmg u ll take while dots tick on enemy...

 

As rage jugg , ED is a wasted spot on action bars. For vengeance its something plus to your survivability, but without enrage, it backfires on you. For immortal i dont know cause i have other class to play tank.

[Xzenorath]

I guess it could use a revamp to make it more cost effective... but to brand it useless seems a bit over the top.

 

While getting focused, say in Huttball, a properly specced Juggernaut has much better survivability than a Marauder, it's not even close... even considering all the abilities listed above.

 

Invincible (40% dmg reduction) paired with Endure Pain (30% HP) & Enraged Defense (specced as vengeance for an additional 19% dmg reduction), and Soresu Form (6 to 12% dmg reduction). Not going to mention Heavy Armor...

 

This is above 65% damage reduction with 30% more HP and heals proccing.

You can still AoE slow, force push, force choke, leap away, AoE mezz...

 

Like someone else mentioned, it has it's place if used properly. It's not meant to be the end all be all of juggernaut survival, it's just an extra tool.

 

That being said, I agree on the rage cost being steep for any spec besides Vengeance.