Griefing: Everyone's Problem

[Dralanna]

Evidently, many believe Griefing has a wider meaning then others:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

 

This is not the definitive list of Greifing, but does indicate that many hold various beliefs on the issue.

 

Bioware has listed Griefing as a Harassment issue, and they have provided many ways to avoid such occurances from being created. That said, that Lock has been Picked, amd there are still varied beliefs on what constitutes a serious offense.

 

Maybe Camping the Fleet is not a serious issue to some; one gains credits, loot, pets, and unique gear, etc. But to others, it is offensive to be the one that must move around a crowd for a week that is believed to be misplaced in the first place. Or they did not enjoy the Plaugue storyline, and were forced to play it. Etc.

 

Lots of possible reasons; not all merit action, But when my best advice is simply to Ignore possible offenders because the 'vocal majority' believes them to be a part of the gameplay, then I shall continue to post my complaints in the medium provided. And others are welcome to follow suit.

 

Ah... pure irony. One of the forms of griefing from the link you posted

 

Written and/or verbal insults, false accusations of cheating/griefing

[Dralanna]

That said, ONCE Griefing is defined by BW as it applies to SWTOR we ALL agree to go with HOW BW DEFINES it. BW I await your answer ( but I ain't holdin my breath cause I don't want to pass out waiting for you to acknowledge that you even read this particular thread ( or the 4 other previous threads ) ).

 

Already done, man... I even highlighted the important part.

 

Harassment consists of misuse and/or abuse of game mechanics and verbal harassment with the intention of distressing and offending other players. Game mechanics allow players to interact with the world and each other. For example, the ability to block a doorway is a game mechanic. Use of game mechanics like these is by no means considered harassment in and of itself. The key to determining whether the mechanic is being misused or abused is to determine "intent." Reported incidents are not considered harassment until it is determined by the SWTOR CS that it was done to intentionally to cause distress or to offend other players.

[Elhanan]

- PVP happening on a PVP server = Not griefing (being ganked sucks, but you knew that was a possibility when you chose that server)

- Following in game mechanics is not griefing (there was no griefing going on during the world event. NONE. You had vaccines to protect yourself and obvious signs to move when infected players where around you).

- Needing for alts or companions = not griefing (even though I never do it and ignore anyone that does it to me)

 

Honestly, there really isn't any "griefing" at all in this game. Things that I just mentioned like ganking, having people roll need for alts or companions, people exploding near you during the event, etc are NOT griefing. You can choose to play on a PVE server. You can ignore people that need on everything that drops and only run with guildies and you could have avoided the Rakghoul plague all together if you wanted to.

 

I played plenty during the even and the only toon to become infected was my Trooper. And that was because he wanted to be.....

 

People just love making mountains out of mole hills.

 

* Was on a PvE server; didn't help.

 

* Had someone explode behind me at the Med Station; cost me 1/3 of the resources for a single dose to gain the cure.

 

* Was 10th lvl, and had no options to avoid the Fleet.

 

* Ganking is not Griefing, but Corpse Camping is Griefing; Having the infected camp the Med Stations in some locations seems to fit that description.

 

* Tried to ignore the Plague; had it forced upon me.

 

Q: What is needing for Alts and Companions? Is this for Group rewards?

 

No mountains; no molehills. Simply trying to prevent the problems that do exist from getting larger.

[Dralanna]

* Ganking is not Griefing, but Corpse Camping is Griefing; Having the infected camp the Med Stations in some locations seems to fit that description.

 

No... it really doesn't

[GnatB]

You're assuming quite a bit. Mainly that all these guys are in cahoots. It is reasonable that people are completely oblivious to the world around them(as the case with OP. he doesn't team and has his chat shut off). I know when I was infected I just went about my business. If that was a GTN trip or a mailbox run I just went to whichever one had the least amount of people(easier to click) or was closest. If I blew up I blew up I didn't pay much attention or cared if anyone else got infected.

 

I'm sure you're right. Some of the people infecting others were just inconsiderate jerks. (term I'd like to use probably censored).

 

The polite amongst us once we entered the "infect others" stage either went someplace where people obviously wanted to be infected, or jumped from a bridge to get rid of the debuff harmlessly.

 

But I'm sorry, the infected spread out in front of the GTN/mail (and facing away from them, I might add) were almost certainly doing so to grief.

[Dralanna]

But I'm sorry, the infected spread out in front of the GTN/mail (and facing away from them, I might add) were almost certainly doing so to grief.

 

You're trying to interpret motive here (which is a key component to griefing). IMO, it's more likely they were trying to spread the disease to complete a quest, or because they thought it was fun.... than it was that they did it to make people mad.

 

I'll be honest, the debuff and effect of it was so minor to me, that it never even occurred to me that people would be so enraged by it... until I checked the message board.

[SoonerJBD]

You're trying to interpret motive here (which is a key component to griefing). IMO, it's more likely they were trying to spread the disease to complete a quest, or because they thought it was fun.... than it was that they did it to make people mad.

 

I'll be honest, the debuff and effect of it was so minor to me, that it never even occurred to me that people would be so enraged by it... until I checked the message board.

 

People were trying to spread the plague because they had a quest to do so and because, and I can't understand why this gets ignored by the complainers, it didn't hurt anyone but actually gave currency to the infected. So to assume people were trying to grief is ludicrous. IF they infected you on purpose, which is a ridiculous assumption given the unpredictability of when you might explode, they were trying to GIVE you currency. That's not griefing. Black/green crystals on my server were selling for 500k each. The fact that you refused to use the currency or did not want to participate in the event isn't their problem. YOU griefed yourself.

[Rhizoprionodon]

Rakghoul DNA aside (personally did not see giving someone plague as griefing) I do think some the the PvP exploits on PvP servers need to be addressed. This event was great for showing some of the issue in PvP on PvE servers.

[Dralanna]

People were trying to spread the plague because they had a quest to do so and because, and I can't understand why this gets ignored by the complainers, it didn't hurt anyone but actually gave currency to the infected. So to assume people were trying to grief is ludicrous. IF they infected you on purpose, which is a ridiculous assumption given the unpredictability of when you might explode, they were trying to GIVE you currency. That's not griefing. Black/green crystals on my server were selling for 500k each. The fact that you refused to use the currency or did not want to participate in the event isn't their problem. YOU griefed yourself.

 

I have to assume your reply wasn't intended for me, despite quoting me.... since I've said almost the exact same thing you did throughout these threads.

[HeavensAgent]

* Ganking is not Griefing, but Corpse Camping is Griefing; Having the infected camp the Med Stations in some locations seems to fit that description.

Corpse camping, specifically, is not considered an actionable offense in this game.

* Tried to ignore the Plague; had it forced upon me.

That is the nature of a world event. It's supposed to effect everyone. If you truly wanted to avoid it, we were advised to remain on board our ships.

Q: What is needing for Alts and Companions? Is this for Group rewards?

Indeed it is. Basically it's a situation in a group, usually occurring in a FP or Operation, where someone rolls Need on an item that his or her character, specifically, cannot use. The player then justifies this by claiming that while the character may not be able to use the item, the character's companion can. Or in some cases the player claims to have an alt that can use the item in question, and that this justifies rolling Need for the item. Edited April 28, 2012 by HeavensAgent

[Lunazen]

It was a plague. Everyone should potentially be affected by it, ie. infected.

 

To make it all ok, I'd say remove involuntary pvp flags on pve servers from these types of events. People go to those servers for a reason and that reason should be respected by the devs and supported by the game mechanics.

 

Other than that, the event was great. I experienced no griefing (pvp server) I'd certainly like to see more events in the future.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Lunazen

[SoonerJBD]

I have to assume your reply wasn't intended for me, despite quoting me.... since I've said almost the exact same thing you did throughout these threads.

 

Yes, I was quoting you to echo you, lol. We are both on the side of reason and rational thinking. What bothers me most is the out-of-whack proportion to which this been blown up. Elhanan has written hundreds, maybe more than a thousand forum posts to complain because he was infected once with a plague that cost him nothing and actually gave him in-game currency. It is mind-boggling. If he didn't want to participate, I can understand getting mildly annoyed. Maybe even posting to complain one time. But to post dozens of times every day for going on three weeks now? I shudder to think what would happen if he encountered an actual griefer.

[Tiergan_Manasa]

Constructive thoughts?

 

To be honest, I think you're way off base. It wasn't griefing at all. Vaccines were easy to get. If someone didn't want to participate, it was easy not to.

 

I'm not a PvPer. I participated in the event (daily) without difficulty. The notion that the event involved griefing other players has been blown way out of proportion - it was a total non-factor.

[Elhanan]

To be honest, I think you're way off base. It wasn't griefing at all. Vaccines were easy to get. If someone didn't want to participate, it was easy not to.

 

I'm not a PvPer. I participated in the event (daily) without difficulty. The notion that the event involved griefing other players has been blown way out of proportion - it was a total non-factor.

 

Perhaps not for my own case, but I believe that those folks that were Corpse Camped after being PK'd via Flagging Bug were most certainly Griefed. Having infected characters Camping the Med Station to continually kill the same PC until they log off seems like Griefing to me.

 

And as for those that assume they know me, we know what assume means, too....

Edited April 28, 2012 by Elhanan

[Dralanna]

Perhaps not for my own case, but I believe that those folks that were Corpse Camped after being PK'd via Flagging Bug were most certainly Griefed. Having infected characters Camping the Med Station to continually kill the same PC until they log off seems like Griefing to me.

 

And as for those that assume they know me, we know what assume means, too....

 

In this you are absolutely right.... if someone corpse camps you, that would be griefing. That would have absolutely nothing to do with the world event however. If you are now crusading to have BW remove all of the ways that someone can have their PvP flag turned on against their will I am completely in your corner.

 

Let's be clear, however. This has zero to with your initial complaint about being infected with the plague while on the fleet.

[Elhanan]

In this you are absolutely right.... if someone corpse camps you, that would be griefing. That would have absolutely nothing to do with the world event however. If you are now crusading to have BW remove all of the ways that someone can have their PvP flag turned on against their will I am completely in your corner.

 

Let's be clear, however. This has zero to with your initial complaint about being infected with the plague while on the fleet.

 

This is the reason I used 'some locations' in my previous post which was dismissed out of hand.

 

Thanks for the nod anyway.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Elhanan

[ZORG]

I was running my dailies on Tat, I clicked the totem pole to summon the keeper and an empire player that was flagged was lurking around me and the second i activated the totem i found myself flagged and was killed. He was fully geared and i am a fresh 50 alt. I was very annoyed as i am on a "PVE" server and expect to be able to quest in peace but the player used an exploit to flag me and kill me. I think its just not good enough and the "flagged for PVP" option should be for ME to decide if i want to use it, not another player to flag me. Whoever defends this abuse of exploits is either guilty of it or does not respect that some players do not want to get pwned trying to enjoy their questing in peace. If this sort of behavior is allowed to continue it will be more lost subs for bioware. I can accept that if i venture to close to an enemy base i will be flagged but there are exploits and they need to be fixed.

 

You have to understand these spontanious events dont get tested on the general populas. Therefor some unintended consequenses are bound to crop up.... All in all I saw the event as fun and ingaging. I live on the Kaas City server PVE-STD server no RP or PVP to it. HOWEVER there was alot of PVP goin on during this event.

 

I do think in an event such as this the DNA Vender should have been entirely in PVP free areas. Like where the quest turn in spot was at anchorhead speeder spot.

 

There was one quest that said in the TEXT that to go out and infect THE ENEMY. This to me means the imperials. I didn't have much chance to do this so I just went to fleet and did the infected players camp at the bank boxes. We all stayed at the one side so the other Bank box was plague free.

 

Let me be clear I thought this event was brilliant and encourage BW to do more like it. It may have been a nusance to many but seriously why not just put the normal grind on hold find out WTH is goin on and jump in and participate? The rewards were pretty dang nice. The crystals alone was worth it. I must have exploded a 100 times or more LOL.

 

One thing from some of these post is unclear to me... Some stated that there was a PVP area on the fleet? As far as i know each faction has there OWN fleet there for the fleet is all PVP FREE as far as I know... So if you were infected there just hang out explode get dna put them on GTN and go... SIMPLE..

[SoonerJBD]

Perhaps not for my own case, but I believe that those folks that were Corpse Camped after being PK'd via Flagging Bug were most certainly Griefed. Having infected characters Camping the Med Station to continually kill the same PC until they log off seems like Griefing to me.

 

And as for those that assume they know me, we know what assume means, too....

 

See, THIS is griefing. Someone who was on a PvE server and was flagged via and exploit, then corpse camped has a legitimate complaint about being griefed and should report the behavior. This is in stark contrast to your complaints about people passing the plague.

[Elhanan]

You have to understand these spontanious events dont get tested on the general populas. Therefor some unintended consequenses are bound to crop up.... All in all I saw the event as fun and ingaging. I live on the Kaas City server PVE-STD server no RP or PVP to it. HOWEVER there was alot of PVP goin on during this event.

 

I do think in an event such as this the DNA Vender should have been entirely in PVP free areas. Like where the quest turn in spot was at anchorhead speeder spot.

 

There was one quest that said in the TEXT that to go out and infect THE ENEMY. This to me means the imperials. I didn't have much chance to do this so I just went to fleet and did the infected players camp at the bank boxes. We all stayed at the one side so the other Bank box was plague free.

 

Let me be clear I thought this event was brilliant and encourage BW to do more like it. It may have been a nusance to many but seriously why not just put the normal grind on hold find out WTH is goin on and jump in and participate? The rewards were pretty dang nice. The crystals alone was worth it. I must have exploded a 100 times or more LOL.

 

One thing from some of these post is unclear to me... Some stated that there was a PVP area on the fleet? As far as i know each faction has there OWN fleet there for the fleet is all PVP FREE as far as I know... So if you were infected there just hang out explode get dna put them on GTN and go... SIMPLE..

 

For me, my first impression was less than pleasant, so I chose not to participate in the remainder of the Event. It was on the first night, and I had no knowledge of the Plague or rewards; onky that an outbreak had occured on Tatooine. Then I was infected on the Fleet, and chose to isolate my Main, and build Alts for the rest of the week.

 

Never have taken well to being pushed around by others; nor like it when it happens to others.. But I am glad the Event was enjoyed by so many; simply hope the next one goes even better.

[Dralanna]

This is the reason I used 'some locations' in my previous post which was dismissed out of hand.

 

Thanks for the nod anyway.

 

Once again, I have to clarify... the previous post you mentioned was your complaint about people infecting you in some locations

 

Having the infected camp the Med Stations in some locations seems to fit that description.

 

That is FAR different from corpse camping.

[Elhanan]

Once again, I have to clarify... the previous post you mentioned was your complaint about people infecting you in some locations

 

That is FAR different from corpse camping.

 

Agreed that it was placed poorly in context, but since I have not personally complained on Ganking or Corpse Camping (as I have yet to be PK'd) was simply replying to another poster; not my situation at all:

* Ganking is not Griefing, but Corpse Camping is Griefing; Having the infected camp the Med Stations in some locations seems to fit that description.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Elhanan

[RDeanOU]

A reasonable person would have assumed that if I wasn't standing 100 m over by the crowd of people gathering together so they could get infected, then the odds are pretty close to 100% that I probably didn't want to get infected. If I did then I'd be standing over by all the other people wanting to get infected.

 

A reasonable person would have assumed that if I didn't have the vaccine it was because I was too poor/cheap to afford it. (of course, a reasonable person probably isn't actually taking the time to check buffs, so vaccine or lack thereof doesn't really much matter).

 

A reasonable person would have, if somehow *really* needing to use the GTN while in the "about to blow" stage, gone to the empty one next to the other guy that is also in the "about to blow" stage, and not go to the other one to make sure they are both covered. Of course, most reasonable people that didn't want to grief would have simply waited over by the crowed of people wanting to be infected to blow, and then done their banking.

 

When you walk over to the GTN, and see 1 guy about to blow standing in front of each of the GTN terminals, and 1 guy by the mailbox, (again, standing in front) With everybody else standing away from them (and thus unable to use the terminals/mail). You can be pretty darn sure about their intent.

 

You keep using the word reasonable, but you are using it to mean something other than it means.

 

A reasonable person would not jump to the conclusion that you would be upset about getting the plague because you didn't happen to be standing in the pile of people spreading it. The overwhelming majority of people on the fleet wanted the plague whether they were at the GTN, a mailbox, or their cargo hold access. If someone didn't want it they could buy a vaccine for a paltry sum or simply ask for free vaccines in general chat and those vaccines lasted for SIX HOURS!

 

A reasonable person would conclude that anyone running around the fleet not vaccinated probably wanted the plague or at least wouldn't be bothered by getting it.

 

The vaccine was only 2k credits and people on my server were handing them out for free to anyone who asked in general chat. Why would a reasonable person conclude that a paltry 2k credits or FREE was too expensive? Again, this isn't what reasonable means. A reasonable person wouldn't have to check buffs because if you had taken the vaccine you were immune. A reasonable person would think they could run around the fleet getting infected and blowing up and that behavior wouldn't harm anyone.

 

A reasonable person would not go that far out of their way to avoid spreading something that nearly everyone wanted and that those who wanted to avoid could easily immunize themselves against. Here again you totally mess up what it means to be reasonable. If I know that anyone that doesn't want the plague can very easily make themselves immune (or even cure themselves after the fact) why would I be so paranoid about giving the plague to the tiny undetectable minority (that I was unaware at the time even existed) that had some ridiculous excuse why they couldn't use the easy, cheap, and widely available opt-out that the company provided?

 

The idea that you can ascribe malicious intent to the people spreading the plague around the fleet is completely and totally absurd. It absolutely flies in the face of reason. This view is completely ridiculous. There is simply no possible way a reasonable person could come to this conclusion.

 

Stop abusing the term "griefing." Falsely accusing others the way you people are is far more accurately called griefing than the behavior you are talking about.

[EvilHamhawk]

Clearly you do not play PVP. Your arguments do not hold up there. The plague caused the player to become stunned during times when a few seconds means life and death. It changes the outcomes of matches. The vaccine does not persist through death but the plague does. I can not afford to spend 2k per death in PVP. The costs are prohibitively expensive.

[Elhanan]

You keep using the word reasonable, but you are using it to mean something other than it means.

 

A reasonable person would not jump to the conclusion that you would be upset about getting the plague because you didn't happen to be standing in the pile of people spreading it. The overwhelming majority of people on the fleet wanted the plague whether they were at the GTN, a mailbox, or their cargo hold access. If someone didn't want it they could buy a vaccine for a paltry sum or simply ask for free vaccines in general chat and those vaccines lasted for SIX HOURS!

 

A reasonable person would conclude that anyone running around the fleet not vaccinated probably wanted the plague or at least wouldn't be bothered by getting it.

 

The vaccine was only 2k credits and people on my server were handing them out for free to anyone who asked in general chat. Why would a reasonable person conclude that a paltry 2k credits or FREE was too expensive? Again, this isn't what reasonable means. A reasonable person wouldn't have to check buffs because if you had taken the vaccine you were immune. A reasonable person would think they could run around the fleet getting infected and blowing up and that behavior wouldn't harm anyone.

 

A reasonable person would not go that far out of their way to avoid spreading something that nearly everyone wanted and that those who wanted to avoid could easily immunize themselves against. Here again you totally mess up what it means to be reasonable. If I know that anyone that doesn't want the plague can very easily make themselves immune (or even cure themselves after the fact) why would I be so paranoid about giving the plague to the tiny undetectable minority (that I was unaware at the time even existed) that had some ridiculous excuse why they couldn't use the easy, cheap, and widely available opt-out that the company provided?

 

The idea that you can ascribe malicious intent to the people spreading the plague around the fleet is completely and totally absurd. It absolutely flies in the face of reason. This view is completely ridiculous. There is simply no possible way a reasonable person could come to this conclusion.

 

Stop abusing the term "griefing." Falsely accusing others the way you people are is far more accurately called griefing than the behavior you are talking about.

 

Not so much on the first night.

 

There was apparently no 'overwhelming majority', as it was new; folks asking in Chat and here for info, as I recall from other posts. No freebies, no Green Gooey crowds; just a 2K serum and a few inconsiderate folks making choices for others. Not all; some may have been playing well with others, but not the one hanging out at the Med Station evidently filling their Mission quota.

 

Avoid assumption; it may be infectious.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Elhanan

[MbaxterBeau]

I think the plague is funny. My toon died from it and I LOL my butt off. I got it a second time and bought the vaccine lol. It's a game and it's supposed to be fun so relax and just go with it.