Context: raid bosses with enrage timers. Is mercenary dps still viable?

[Andarilhodoceu]

Please consider the context when answering. I'm not talking about pvp, 1v1, leveling, dailies, flashpoints.

I'm in a raid group trying to beat a boss enrage timer. There is moving around involved (hotspots), target switching (adds, shields, whatever) so results from target dummy bashing don't count as much.

Does bringing a mercenary to dps gimp the group? Would the group be better bringing another dps class? Can we be 'viable' only by means of others being kind enough to carry us?

I'm asking because I'm in the process of gearing up my mercenary for raids but if the class is useless to beat the hardest content, I won't even bother.

[Plaxy]

Just blew through kaon Undersiege (hardmode) with 2 Columi equipped Mercs one pyro one aresenal did fine. Yesterday we did both Foundry(Hardmode) and Boarding party no problems beat enrage timers. in fact on the crawler boss our tank and Healer where having trouble with the day before with a maruader and assassin also columi equipped where surprised how easy it was and we flaten him in less than 2 minutes I'm starting to think there some L2P going on the forum, like not droping dots and not continously relying on TM after the stacks are up.

 

TM was OP before 1.2 and Heatsinker was Massively OP after 1.2 but before 1.2c My heatsinkers withen a raid were hitting for 14k with 5 other mercs in a 16 man. Heck we took down Gargath with 9 people 5 of wich were mercs in 3 minutes. 3 Minutes 1.5 million HP gone with 9 people.... Back to Now yes both mercs Pyro and Arsenal are indeed Viable in PVE if still not one the TOP raid DPSers out there even with out 14k Heatsinkers.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Plaxy

[Macroecon]

yes both mercs Pyro and Arsenal are indeed Viable in PVE if still not one the TOP raid DPSers out there even with out 14k Heatsinkers.

 

No disrespect, but you are talking about Columni equipped players doing HM FP. Those toons are far more geared than is required for those missions. So of course your party did fine. But if you had 2 Columni melee/dps instead of the two mercs, you would have killed the bosses faster.

 

More to the point those 2 Columni Mercs are going to hold your party back if you try more difficult content. The sole advantage of the dps Mercs are that they can switch targets faster than melee dps. But that advantage is irrelevant when there is a single, huge HP boss target. Basically that Merc in your party might help you clear trash faster. But he is a handicap when it comes to the fights that matter - bosses.

[Gyronamics]

No disrespect, but you are talking about Columni equipped players doing HM FP. Those toons are far more geared than is required for those missions. So of course your party did fine. But if you had 2 Columni melee/dps instead of the two mercs, you would have killed the bosses faster.

 

More to the point those 2 Columni Mercs are going to hold your party back if you try more difficult content. The sole advantage of the dps Mercs are that they can switch targets faster than melee dps. But that advantage is irrelevant when there is a single, huge HP boss target. Basically that Merc in your party might help you clear trash faster. But he is a handicap when it comes to the fights that matter - bosses.

 

Funny you should say that.

 

I was just looking at my log of the last boss of Explosive Conflict.

 

You know, the one where you have to switch targets a lot and there's also 3 packs of adds to deal with.

 

I came out with higher dps than the melee

 

Just an example to scupper your broad brush strokes of dismissal about the usefulness of mercs....

[erruanon]

I dont lknow what raid you have, but im a full rakata merc and i get my *** handed to me on every fight.We run a 16 man group for hardmodes and every other dps is better than mercs.Maurauders do 1/3 more dps than us and so do snipers.If you have 2 players of the same skill there is no way anybody is going to choose a merc over another dps class now

[-NovalGaraint-]

Funny you should say that.

 

I was just looking at my log of the last boss of Explosive Conflict.

 

You know, the one where you have to switch targets a lot and there's also 3 packs of adds to deal with.

 

I came out with higher dps than the melee

 

Just an example to scupper your broad brush strokes of dismissal about the usefulness of mercs....

 

 

I'd like to see your logs / parser data on this plz......

 

I'm rolling a Merc FTFOI, not at all because I want a top DPS for my Ops group, I already have my sniper who does just "fine".......but I've yet to see a Merc who post 1.2 can hold a candle to a sniper or even some other Melee based DPS

[Gyronamics]

I'd like to see your logs / parser data on this plz......

 

I'm rolling a Merc FTFOI, not at all because I want a top DPS for my Ops group, I already have my sniper who does just "fine".......but I've yet to see a Merc who post 1.2 can hold a candle to a sniper or even some other Melee based DPS

 

I don't know what you're expecting to see, raid dps has to be taken into the context of what's going on

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/14088

 

Still, I don't mind.

 

I rather like my damage piechart.

 

If you look at an arsenal damage piechart there's two huge wedges for tracer and unload then slightly smaller ones for HSM and railshot.

 

Mine, there's 4 even wedges making up half of it and a mass of other attacks making up the other half

Edited April 24, 2012 by Gyronamics

[-NovalGaraint-]

so your linking a Commando as a comparison to Merc DPS?.......

 

and 960dps is hardly something to be waving a "im the top dps class" banner around about.......

[Gyronamics]

so your linking a Commando as a comparison to Merc DPS?.......

 

Do you understand what you just said?

 

and 960dps is hardly something to be waving a "im the top dps class" banner around about.......

 

That wasn't what I said was it.

 

Read the post I replied to and what I was replying to in it.

 

I'll link it:

 

The sole advantage of the dps Mercs are that they can switch targets faster than melee dps. But that advantage is irrelevant when there is a single, huge HP boss target. Basically that Merc in your party might help you clear trash faster. But he is a handicap when it comes to the fights that matter - bosses.

 

So I bring up a boss fight where being a Merc was a definite advantage over the others.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Gyronamics

[TheronFett]

My guild is 10/10 HM (more if you count the new op, but we haven't cleared it yet) and we roll with at least one DPS Merc in the group, sometimes two. We're all mostly Rakata geared, for what it's worth...but Merc DPS in Operations is still very much viable.

[Andarilhodoceu]

Ok, I'm completely disregarding the comments about overgeared mercenaries running flashpoints, because that is clearly out of context.

 

About you people who have been running NiM EV/KP and HM EC with a mix of dps'ers, including mercenaries, can you provide some comparative parses among classes?

 

Given the complexity of fights (movement, target switching, etc.) it is hard to reach a conclusion by pure theorycrafting, I'd really like to see some factual evidence.

 

For instance, some people say ranged perform better than melee when you have to switch targets - I don't know if it's true, because some melee classes love to switch targets, given that leaping can build rage and open big smashes (and give free use of some abilities). Is must also be taken into account that moving around because of hotspots hurts inductions a lot.

 

Also, saying "we could beat so and so content with mercs in our group" doesn't say a lot because it could be that they were just being carried.

 

So, I'd like to know which of the following situations represents our current state better:

 

Situation A:

Boss needs 6500 dps in average to beat enrage timer

Tank 1 provides 400 dps

Tank 2 provides 400 dps

Healer 1 provides 100 dps (in between heals)

Healer 2 provides 100 dps (in between heals)

Marauder 1 provides 1500 dps

Marauder 2 provides 1500 dps

Sniper provides 1500 dps

Mercenary provides 1000 dps

Total dps 6500 = win if everything happens perfectly

 

Situation B:

Boss needs 6500 dps in average to beat enrage timer

Tank 1 provides 400 dps

Tank 2 provides 400 dps

Healer 1 provides 100 dps (in between heals)

Healer 2 provides 100 dps (in between heals)

Marauder 1 provides 1400 dps

Marauder 2 provides 1400 dps

Sniper provides 1400 dps

Mercenary provides 1350 dps

Total dps 6550 = win with a little room for error

 

In situation A one could say we are "viable", I'd say we're being carried. In situation B I'd say we are really viable and can carry our own weight.

 

So, what is it for us? A or B?

[Andarilhodoceu]

Also, I forgot to thank Gyronamics for providing a parse.

 

Unfortunately, it's not from a mercenary, so 1. I'm not familiar with the abilities, 2. one has to trust Bioware has mirror class performing similarly (I don't know if we can assume that).

 

Too bad we can't see dps from the other members, I have no idea if 969 dps is good or not (I don't care people get 1400 beating a dummy, you don't have to move or switch targets there), I'd like to compare that number to what other dps'ers were doing in the same fight.

[Gyronamics]

Also, I forgot to thank Gyronamics for providing a parse.

 

Unfortunately, it's not from a mercenary, so 1. I'm not familiar with the abilities, 2. one has to trust Bioware has mirror class performing similarly (I don't know if we can assume that).

 

Too bad we can't see dps from the other members, I have no idea if 969 dps is good or not (I don't care people get 1400 beating a dummy, you don't have to move or switch targets there), I'd like to compare that number to what other dps'ers were doing in the same fight.

 

It's the same as a Merc Pyro spec except our CGC only does 2/3 of the damage a Mercs does. Another thing that seems to gimp the Republic side for no reason at all.

 

I don't have their logs I only know our best geared melee warrior was reporting high 700s.

 

That fight has a ton of target switching, downtime when nothing can be hurt and packs of adds.

[erruanon]

this is a ^parse from a full ec clear

http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=combat_2012-04-19_01_36_18_633256.txt

its from last wednesday so it was before the nerf to heatseeker

Edited April 24, 2012 by erruanon

[Hutt]

Answer to the question, no. I've been rolling with my tank jug going dps route, I do more dmg than my merc when specd to arsenal. That's with recruit on jug, and Rakata/ WM/ Champ concocted Merc. Pyro I can still do a decent amount of dps. In raids this weekend I'm pretty sure I doubled the dps the arsenal gave out. Then again I found some nice sequences with pyro. Keep in mind we both were under the Maurader and assassin substantially.

[Yazule]

Please consider the context when answering. I'm not talking about pvp, 1v1, leveling, dailies, flashpoints.

I'm in a raid group trying to beat a boss enrage timer. There is moving around involved (hotspots), target switching (adds, shields, whatever) so results from target dummy bashing don't count as much.

Does bringing a mercenary to dps gimp the group? Would the group be better bringing another dps class? Can we be 'viable' only by means of others being kind enough to carry us?

I'm asking because I'm in the process of gearing up my mercenary for raids but if the class is useless to beat the hardest content, I won't even bother.

 

firstly you will always have "this class does more dps"

secondly enrage timers are not an issue in any content I have seen (which would be most of it)

 

with dps meters I think you will find that the dps problems are not class based they are player based and that "elitism" people worried about with the bringing of parsers will come into play

 

i put "elitism" in quotes because basically if you SUCK you should NOT be in raid... it isn't elitist to expect someone to be carried by the rest of the group. If your dps is more than 20% lower than peak dps for your class you should get the boot. I see people all the time doing less dps than the tank with no good reason. Am I elitist for wanting them to either up their dps or get out? if so then I guess I am elitist.

 

but i digress

 

our dps is plenty to be FINE with enrage timers.

[Ewert]

firstly you will always have "this class does more dps"

secondly enrage timers are not an issue in any content I have seen (which would be most of it)

Unless someone else's raid happens to be heavy on dps mercs you mean? ...

with dps meters I think you will find that the dps problems are not class based they are player based and that "elitism" people worried about with the bringing of parsers will come into play

What dps meters will finally show is the dps problems are _ALSO_ class based, not just player based. Without meters it is easy to diss the player. With meters showing merc pyro at 1050-1150 and marauders at 1600+ on bossfights, and merc pyro not able to pump out over 1200 sustained whereas marauders pump out more sustained on dummy due to the no-dodge-parry bug, we can surmise that:

Merc pyro for all intents and purposes most likely can not do over 1200 on boss fights, as even with mostly perfect rotation on non-stressful dummy test can not break that number. 1000-1100 is doable on bosses, as rangeds don't have much problems dishing out what they can dish out.

Marauders reliably do over 1600 on boss fights, and do way more than that on dummies, showing that player skill will matter and skillful ones can pump out over _50%_ more dps, but even a faceroller can probably outdps a merc pyro.

 

I haven't tested arsenal yet for myself, will soon, with the bug introduced and the other bug removed, it most likely is much less than it used to be, hopefully atleast more than pyro because pyro feels just saaaad.

i put "elitism" in quotes because basically if you SUCK you should NOT be in raid... it isn't elitist to expect someone to be carried by the rest of the group. If your dps is more than 20% lower than peak dps for your class you should get the boot. I see people all the time doing less dps than the tank with no good reason. Am I elitist for wanting them to either up their dps or get out? if so then I guess I am elitist.

In progressive raids, one should not bring a pyro merc. Also one should not bring a bodyguard healer either. I hope to god that arsenal will still be atleast semi-competitive, otherwise only thing I can bring is player skill in doing atleast something with low chances of messups ...

but i digress

our dps is plenty to be FINE with enrage timers.

You mean your operations dps is fine with enrage timers, and anything else than arsenal merc is a hindrance and is being carried... Unfortunately.

[Macroecon]

I was just looking at my log of the last boss of Explosive Conflict. You know, the one where you have to switch targets a lot and there's also 3 packs of adds to deal with. I came out with higher dps than the melee. Just an example to scupper your broad brush strokes of dismissal about the usefulness of mercs....

 

Actually you just confirmed exactly what I stated. The only time Merc dps has an advantage is when target switching is a big part of the battle. And how many ops boss fights feature that? Yeah....

 

So we're back to reality. Dps Melee toon > Dps Merc toon. If necessary, bring along one ranged dps to deal with trash mob adds in boss fights. Although a better solution is simply to have your tank be skilled enough to collect the trash adds for your melee AoEs.

[Maltuvion]

I don't know what you're expecting to see, raid dps has to be taken into the context of what's going on

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/14088

 

Still, I don't mind.

 

I rather like my damage piechart.

 

If you look at an arsenal damage piechart there's two huge wedges for tracer and unload then slightly smaller ones for HSM and railshot.

 

Mine, there's 4 even wedges making up half of it and a mass of other attacks making up the other half

 

Except your log is horrible dps and just proves the point to anyone even remotely interested in optimization :/

 

to OP: We run with one dps merc because we're a tight-knit group. However, he is consistently below our 2 snipers and Marauder, often by a noticeable margin. Patch 1.2c has only exacerbated this. If you want to truly contribute, don't roll Merc. However, rest assured that eventually Merc will be retuned to be competitive. How long it takes depends on people's ability to speak coherently. Posts like the one I quoted are part of the problem.

[Yazule]

Unless someone else's raid happens to be heavy on dps mercs you mean? ...

 

too many of any class can be bad, rauders may do more dps but they take more damage, there is a balance between DPS and HPS that has to be kept. For SOME bossess sure only rauders would be nice, for others not so much (aoe stomps and cleaves)...

 

What dps meters will finally show is the dps problems are _ALSO_ class based, not just player based. Without meters it is easy to diss the player. With meters showing merc pyro at 1050-1150 and marauders at 1600+ on bossfights, and merc pyro not able to pump out over 1200 sustained whereas marauders pump out more sustained on dummy due to the no-dodge-parry bug, we can surmise that:

Merc pyro for all intents and purposes most likely can not do over 1200 on boss fights, as even with mostly perfect rotation on non-stressful dummy test can not break that number. 1000-1100 is doable on bosses, as rangeds don't have much problems dishing out what they can dish out.

Marauders reliably do over 1600 on boss fights, and do way more than that on dummies, showing that player skill will matter and skillful ones can pump out over _50%_ more dps, but even a faceroller can probably outdps a merc pyro.

 

On some fights yes that extra output from the rauders will be noticable, but if the boss leaps, their dps goes in the dumps, if they are taking significantly more damage it puts stress on the healers, having a couple of ranged in the back helps lighten that load. And yes i am speaking arsenal not pyro which really could use some pve love.

 

I haven't tested arsenal yet for myself, will soon, with the bug introduced and the other bug removed, it most likely is much less than it used to be, hopefully atleast more than pyro because pyro feels just saaaad.

 

In progressive raids, one should not bring a pyro merc. Also one should not bring a bodyguard healer either. I hope to god that arsenal will still be atleast semi-competitive, otherwise only thing I can bring is player skill in doing atleast something with low chances of messups ...

pryo i can agree with, bur BG? no way they are awsome in raid. They have lower overall HPS but the overhealing going on with sorc is out of this world. I have been religated to my sorc healer in raid (because we are healer light, they wish i could bring my arsenal because I am consistantly good damage with great awareness)

 

BG can pick up a low tank faster than anyone else, they can also let me refill my force tank and heal me up quick to full "resetting" the healers (after they use vent heat). They are an asset but the healers have to *shocked look* work together and use each others strengths. I put out 2k HPS last night on my sorc but so much of that is overhealing from the AOE, while the BG was sitting around 1.2-1.5k at the high end.

 

You mean your operations dps is fine with enrage timers, and anything else than arsenal merc is a hindrance and is being carried... Unfortunately.

 

No, I mean my dps. There are fights that rauders are eating me on dps, there are others where i am very competitive (when bosses are moving or they have to get out of AOE's or whatever) When everyone is running around harry carry staying out of bad stuff i can just use rapid shots to do 50% of my normal dps while the rauders are doing nothing.

 

I am saying it is a team sport, and all classes bring something to the table. Sorry we are no longer gods with the highest dps and the long range,

 

there is a lot more to it, cc's, heals, cures to name a few that we bring to the table.

 

Now as a final though I willa gree that we have been taken to a point that the nerfs must end and the next changes should be "love" for BH in general (well maybe tanks are ok). I am not saying that I am not dissapointed, I am not saying we are the best, or even the MOST wanted in raids. I am saying BH arsenal doing his job well is NOT being carried.

 

My guild is "average", we are not elite, we can barely put a 16 man together because our numbers are low and we are on a low pop server. Yet we are doing fine with at least 3 BH in every raid (healer, tank, and at least one arsenal).

 

So with almost half of our 8 man being BH and still doing content ... pfft we are not broken, though we could use some love.

[Yazule]

Except your log is horrible dps and just proves the point to anyone even remotely interested in optimization :/

 

to OP: We run with one dps merc because we're a tight-knit group. However, he is consistently below our 2 snipers and Marauder, often by a noticeable margin. Patch 1.2c has only exacerbated this. If you want to truly contribute, don't roll Merc. However, rest assured that eventually Merc will be retuned to be competitive. How long it takes depends on people's ability to speak coherently. Posts like the one I quoted are part of the problem.

 

i guess we live in different worlds, I play to

 

1) have fun

2) finish content

 

I do that as arsenal, I was doing is MUCH better a couple patches ago yes... but to say an arsenal does not contribute is silly imo.

 

But I am not about the parse... I am about fun and content

 

so if you own a car that goes 300mph but never leave a 65mph speed limit what is the point?

 

FYI this is an mmo, we were high on the dps, now we are lower, we will move up again... it is the nature of games like this.

[Splaktar]

Just blew through kaon Undersiege (hardmode) with 2 Columi equipped Mercs one pyro one aresenal did fine. Yesterday we did both Foundry(Hardmode) and Boarding party no problems beat enrage timers. in fact on the crawler boss our tank and Healer where having trouble with the day before with a maruader and assassin also columi equipped where surprised how easy it was and we flaten him in less than 2 minutes I'm starting to think there some L2P going on the forum, like not droping dots and not continously relying on TM after the stacks are up.

 

TM was OP before 1.2 and Heatsinker was Massively OP after 1.2 but before 1.2c My heatsinkers withen a raid were hitting for 14k with 5 other mercs in a 16 man. Heck we took down Gargath with 9 people 5 of wich were mercs in 3 minutes. 3 Minutes 1.5 million HP gone with 9 people.... Back to Now yes both mercs Pyro and Arsenal are indeed Viable in PVE if still not one the TOP raid DPSers out there even with out 14k Heatsinkers.

 

The OP specifically said that he isn't talking about FPs!

[Yazule]

The OP specifically said that he isn't talking about FPs!

 

LI goes beyond HM FP imo so i would take info on that one into consideration but yeah, FP HM anything else is candy.

[mzhou]

my guild is 11/14 HM ops and I am the top dps in most of my guild's raids as an arsenal merc. I personally feel that we are mobile enough and have enough survivability to be competetive with any other dps. Sure a sniper may outdps us if they are very well played but a sniper can't toss out a free instant cast heal every few minutes and they don't have battle rezz either. As mercs we bring a lot more utility to raids and allow for some margin of error which can be really important. Also, in terms of Toth and Zorn on hard mode it would be much better to run ranged dps than melee. Sure marauders might be doing the most damage but they have to move around much more and take more damage than us. If all of your dps is well geared and know what they are doing you will not have a problem with enrage. Keeping that in mind, the off healing and our ability to keep ourselves alive make us more valuable than any other dps class especially since we do outdamage sorcerers.

[StewieMcScotty]

To the OP yes Mercs are still viable in progression Ops My guild is 11/14 HM with no maras and 3 merc dps one of them pyro havent hit an enrage timer yet it just takes gear, patience, and some Skill now that BW took us of easy mode dps.