Why Expertise Stat in PVP?

[Skolops]

The primary reason that there is a PvP stat is to ensure that you need to do PvP in order to progress in PvP. They want for there to be a kind of "second track" of progression alongside the PvE track.

 

First, this gives the game depth. If all you needed to do was either run raids for a bit - or even just craft and buy a bunch of super high end gear from the trade network - then it wouldn't be all that long before there was nothing else to strive after. For some players this would be fine, but for others the constant pursuit of better stuff is part of what makes the game fun.

 

Second, it adds a certain element of "realism" to things, and it's why they are calling the stat "expertise." We get better at things through experience in real life. The person who has practiced Kung Fu alone for decades will most likely lose a fight against a person who has studied for perhaps less time but has real-world experience in combat against other people. Also consider the changes over the centuries in real battle... in the past, there were at times very scripted approaches to war. When guerrilla warfare came about, it took quite some time for those militaries used to more traditional warfare to adjust. This can be compared to the differences between fighting the programmed opponents of PvE as opposed to the sentient and unpredictable opponent's of PvP.

 

Put even more simply, most people can defeat an opponent of lesser skill. When two opponents of equal skill meet, however, it is experience that makes the difference. The idea that there is a special stat intended to simulate the way experience works in the real world makes sense enough.

 

The primary reason really is, however, the intention to keep two separate tracks. It's the reason why PvE gear is not good enough in PvP, and it's also the reason why - and I must disagree with a few posters here on this point - PvP gear is not good enough for high end PvE. The reduction in stats is considerable for PvP gear over PvE gear. Expertise "makes up" for this when facing off against other players, but against a raid boss the several hundred less points of primary stat can make a huge difference.

 

PvE actually has it's own stats, you see - it's just that they're the regular ones. A fresh level 50 should feel at least a little weak in end-game PvE at first, but as he acquires the PvE gear, he begins to be more and more powerful. The level 50 mods and gear that can be bought with money are nothing compared to the ones which are acquired through end-game PvE, and those extra primary stats simply can't be obtained any other way. Leveling gear has a stat cap. End-game PvE adds on top of this cap in huge quantities of regular stats, whereas end game PvP does in regular stats to a lesser degree along with the expertise which is added.

 

The main idea is that you have end game PvE, and end game PvP, and each of these provides gear which makes you better suited for itself but not the other.

[Skolops]

Absolutely. The day the first developer separated PvP and gave it its own stats and started offering rewards for PvPing was the day real PvP died.

 

You have to realize, though, that these "rewards" come at the sacrifice of the other stats. You aren't going to be able to do a nightmare mode raid in PvP gear because that expertise comes at a huge trade off of the other stats which are good for PvE. It's not as though PvPing gives you added bonus ON TOP of what you get through PvE.

[Skolops]

Personally I find the idea of being a "dedicated PvP:er" pretty silly. I don't understand either why anyone would cater to such an idea, there should just be players, and getting good gear should come either from raiding or from PvP:ing - the high-level gear in both should all max out at the same level with the same stats, so you could raid your hiney off and get great gear or you could PvP your hiney off and get great gear - and then you could wear the same gear to do either raids or PvP and still be just as viable.

 

As a non-PvP:er (at least so far) I personally find it annoying that there is such a useless barrier to entry. I don't have 350k to spend (being fairly new to 50 and heavily invested in crafting) and even if I did I've spent considerable time and effort sifting through the extremely meager and limited amount of attractive gear available to craft a specific look. Now I have to go buy a "space pimp" outfit for my Smuggler just to be borderline viable to get started on PvP?

 

Yea no.

 

The thing is, being a fresh level 50 is supposed to put you in a position where you are not on the same playing field as others - both in PvP and in PvE. You're supposed to have something to work towards. This includes gear, money, and other miscellaneous things.

 

if you don't have 350K but are heavily invested in crafting, you should certainly be able to make that 350K through your crafting. If you can't, then you're doing something wrong crafting wise, or have the unfortunate difficulty of being on a particularly low population server. Making money is one of the things crafting is for. As a snythweaver, for example, I went from relatively broke to about 3,000,000 credits in the past week once I started churning out level 400 synthweaving items. Granted, this is an in demand skill right now and not every one will have the same results, but you should be turning some kind of a profit whatever your crafting skill is.

 

If you really want to PvP, then you don't need to buy the entire 350K set at once. Add pieces one or a few at a time. This is how people add the other tiers of PvP gear - and it's how they did it before, too. For that matter, it's how they add PvE gear.

[Sanxxx]

The issue IMO is that there are two types of PvP , the first which I'll dismiss as the 'console player kid' PvP I.e Arenas/warzones , short non consequential PvP and persistent open world PVP (e.g. DAOC) which has historically been more associated with MMORPGs.

 

In the latter gear progression forms part of the genre ,MMORPG's are all about makng your character more powerful , If I've solved the mysterious puzzle of Aleria, defeated the Dragons of Norrath and killed the High Wizard of Korriban to get the Staff of Death I don't expect to be beaten by a stable boy with a sharpened pencil on the grounds that he can run around me in perfect circles doing a passable impression of flopsy cottontail.

 

The inclusion of the first type of PVP almost mandates some kind of stat as the developers try to interweave differing genres.

[JeramieCrowe]

You have to realize, though, that these "rewards" come at the sacrifice of the other stats. You aren't going to be able to do a nightmare mode raid in PvP gear because that expertise comes at a huge trade off of the other stats which are good for PvE. It's not as though PvPing gives you added bonus ON TOP of what you get through PvE.

 

PvP shouldn't give you ANY bonuses. It should be about player skill and that's it. Not about how many credits you have, or how long you've played the game. Skill. Nothing more, nothing less.

[RolyartNala]

Hi All,

 

I have been wondering this for a while now, why is there a specific stat just for PVP?

Two reasons.

 

One, because separate gear sets means separate gear grinds, which means more time spent playing if you want to get good at both PVE and PVP. This is the fundamental goal of any MMO; that is, to keep people playing by giving them achievable goals. Also, if you are a hardcore PVPer and don't want to PVE to get gear, then you'd be annoyed if the only way to get gear was through raiding and whatnot. So---separate grinds.

 

Two, because players can kill each other way faster than they can kill tough NPCs. So if players need a certain amount of damage ability to be successful in PVE, that amount is almost always too much to make PVP function well---players would die too fast. So by adding Expertise, you slow down the damage everyone takes, except when gear and skill are equal. Which they almost never are. Furthermore, with the Expertise stat, healers and tanks do that much less damage, since they are already low to begin with, which means everyone stays alive longer on the enemy team since there's less damage coming their way. Only specced DPS do reasonable sustained/burst damage.

 

Complex systems are complex.

Edited April 23, 2012 by RolyartNala

[Ration]

I love this thinly veiled attempt as a "regular guy just asking a regular question" to complain about expertise.

 

Look buddy, you don't get to bring your uber powerful gear into PvP and stomp the snot out of everyone. A PvP stat is a good thing because it forces you to PvP to get the rewards. They are two different progression trees.

 

And NO...a PvE stat would not be a better fix. You would still walk right into PvP and stop the crap out of people who don't have the time to run HM operations on a weekly basis. You would also complain because the PvE stat was taking up your precious stat slots.

 

If you have the time to grind PvP gear then you have the time to grind PvE gear. Therefore your argument is null.

[Ration]

PvP shouldn't give you ANY bonuses. It should be about player skill and that's it. Not about how many credits you have, or how long you've played the game. Skill. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Agreed.

[FrostPaw]

You have to realize, though, that these "rewards" come at the sacrifice of the other stats. You aren't going to be able to do a nightmare mode raid in PvP gear because that expertise comes at a huge trade off of the other stats which are good for PvE. It's not as though PvPing gives you added bonus ON TOP of what you get through PvE.

 

Most of the people I know go into raids and hardmodes just fine with pvp gear. What stat does PvP gear lose? compared to what I'm wearing, it seems equal + expertise.

 

I'll take your word that on the very hardest setting of the very hardest PvE content they can't manage but I imagine thats true for the majority of PvE geared players too.

[RabidPopcorn]

The premise behind resilience/expertise: that pvp'ers and pve'ers should have to grind twice. that pvp'ers and pve'ers should not be able to cross-participate.

 

personally, i hate resilience/expertise. When vanilla WoW introduced pvp gear, there was no such thing as resilience, the only difference was more focus on crits and pvp talent bonuses - it worked fine for me, everyone could cross-participate and the gear gulf wasn't great.

[Karkais]

How can this disparity be good for balanced gameplay?

 

What do you all think?

 

It is not good for the gameplay. The purpose of expertise gear is to give PVPers some goal to grind for. Nevermind the balance..

 

Then again, if expertise gear didnt exist, all those hardcore pvpers would have to do PVE to get their top gear, and the moaning would be deafening..

Edited April 23, 2012 by Karkais

[cs_Kimmo]

I think it is fine the way it is. You should have to progress up in PVP like they have it. I am sorry, but I should not be able to completely defeat an opponent who has war hero gear on, 1 v 1, if I am wearing PVE armor.

 

Wow, may I ask why? I, personally, cannot even start to count the times when I have lost as a Focus Guardian to a complete, backpedaling retard simply because the other person was in full PvP gear, and I was in full Rakata (before 1.2). Why should skill and the way you play not play any part in PvP when there's even a slight difference in gear?

[Sanxxx]

Wow, may I ask why? I, personally, cannot even start to count the times when I have lost as a Focus Guardian to a complete, backpedaling retard simply because the other person was in full PvP gear, and I was in full Rakata (before 1.2). Why should skill and the way you play not play any part in PvP when there's even a slight difference in gear?

 

This subject is worth a wider debate but simply put the genre of MMORPGs as opposed to FPSs is about character progression, his character is better geared than yours for this task , your alleged better skill couldn't overcome this hence you lost. Answer , get better gear, or choose another genre of game.

 

Or, as I said in another post....

 

MMORPG's are all about makng your character more powerful , If I've solved the mysterious puzzle of Aleria, defeated the Dragons of Norrath and killed the High Wizard of Korriban to get the Staff of Death I don't expect to be beaten by a stable boy with a sharpened pencil on the grounds that he can run around me in perfect circles doing a passable impression of flopsy cottontail.

[Drudenfusz]

It's just my opinion, but everyone that PvPs should be given the same stats at the start of the warzone so it makes for a completely even playfield and the PvP gear should be strictly cosmetic.

DPS, Healers and Tanks all should have the same stats? Sounds boring to me, where is the fun in customizing what stats you are using?

[Nexdine]

The thing is, being a fresh level 50 is supposed to put you in a position where you are not on the same playing field as others - both in PvP and in PvE. You're supposed to have something to work towards. This includes gear, money, and other miscellaneous things.

 

I'm fine with that you come to level 50 with gear that doesn't match that of the obsessive powerplayers who have maxed out. I just think it's asinine that there are two separate things I have to work for, two separate sets of (ugly, pimp) armor etc. That quite aside from the credits issue, sure I could make 350k quickly just by doing dailies, that's not the point at all. I haven't even come close to maxing out the PvE armor yet (and am leveling an alt now because the story is more interesting to me than end game.)

 

I don't even know why I'm arguing, it's not like Bioware are going to see reason and suddenly admit that there is absolutely no need for multiple types of stats for PvP:ers and PvE'ers, PvP wins or losses should be determined by relative skill, not how much you've been grinding PvP armor. End game armor should be the same regardless of PvE or PvP as far as stats go, and usable in either PvE or PvP. It shouldn't necessarily be easy to get, but it should be possible to get maxed out armor either by doing PvE or PvP and to jump between PvE and PvP in the same armor. That would let people be entirely into either style or jump between both with no "Oops, have to run to the closet and switch to the other set" malarkey.

[olagaton]

No need to give PvE players any stats or gear or bonuses either. People PvE to test their skill against a computer, not to get better gear to make content easier.

[xxdragonragexx]

Bioware doesn't want players to skip dungeons or content. In the pre 1.2, this can be done somewhat since battlemaster gear is good enough. But they further tweak expertise so that it cannot be used in pve.

 

It is kind of stupid that players can go to the hardest dungeons and do it without going to the previous ones. Players don't even know why they are killing the boss or the story. They skipped everything because it was possible to skip. This is the reason why expertise is in pvp gear. Bioware doesn't want players to skip dungeons and pve content that they spent lots of time creating.

Edited April 23, 2012 by xxdragonragexx

[JeramieCrowe]

MMORPG's are all about makng your character more powerful , If I've solved the mysterious puzzle of Aleria, defeated the Dragons of Norrath and killed the High Wizard of Korriban to get the Staff of Death I don't expect to be beaten by a stable boy with a sharpened pencil on the grounds that he can run around me in perfect circles doing a passable impression of flopsy cottontail.

 

*chuckle*

[Darth_Philar]

PvP stats (or PvP gear in general) exist for two reasons:

1. To prevent high end PvE players from having statistical dominance over players who only PvP.

2. To incentivize PvE players to queue, shortening queue times.

 

You see, PvPers actually don't like gear progression because it creates an uneven playing field. PvP is all about testing your skill against the skill of others. PvE is all about tipping the numbers in your favor until you are able to succeed. Since the two are very incompatible, we get horrible abberations of nature when they try to combine them.

 

Real PvP doesn't actually exist in most MMOs. Instead we have Raiding against AI and Raiding against other players. They are both actually PvE.

[Khoraji]

The reason is simple.. Stop raider use their raid gear in PVP. .

 

this

 

/thread

[RabidPopcorn]

MMOs have gear, if you really really really feel short-changed because of it, you may want to play an FPS.

[Derian]

Bioware doesn't want players to skip dungeons or content. In the pre 1.2, this can be done somewhat since battlemaster gear is good enough. But they further tweak expertise so that it cannot be used in pve.

 

It is kind of stupid that players can go to the hardest dungeons and do it without going to the previous ones. Players don't even know why they are killing the boss or the story. They skipped everything because it was possible to skip. This is the reason why expertise is in pvp gear. Bioware doesn't want players to skip dungeons and pve content that they spent lots of time creating.

 

This is def the best reasoning. Before you could even get Champion and skip a lot of PVE content. Straight to HMs if you weren't stupid.

[Vid-szhite]

Hi All,

 

I have been wondering this for a while now, why is there a specific stat just for PVP?

 

Expertise exists because of Endgame PvE gear. Without Expertise, people who raid more often will have an insurmountable advantage in PvP, while casuals or people who play nothing but PvP will be severely limited. This is obviously rather backwards. Without Expertise, PvP would be even MORE about gear than it is now, except you would be trounced by people in full Rakata instead of people with full Battlemaster - for a time, Full Rakata was even more powerful than Battlemaster, despite Expertise. That's why the Expertise buff happened.

 

From what I see, in level L10-49 no players use it and the matches seem to be more balanced and fun to play. Sure a higher level player has more in his arsenal but still does simular damage to the lowbies.

 

PvP is not more balanced in 1-49, because the team with more high level players tends to steamroll. When there's an even spread, things feel even, but when you're on the team with all level 10s, and the enemy team has 30s and 40s, it's gg. The reason you don't have expertise in 1-49 is Bolster, which automatically tries even the playing field. Once you hit 50, what is considered "good gear" at level 49 would be considered hobo rags. They could either match everyone's stats to the highest geared person, or create PvP progression. PvP progression is more fun and is a carrot on a stick, so they went with that.

 

I hit L50 on my second character yesterday and noticed immediately the wide gap between those that have PVP gear with expertise and those without. Although I admit my stats are low by L50 standards right now, I would think that I would still be able to provide some benefit to the team being all L50s (just as a L10 would in the leveling warzones) but this is just simply not the case. I was unable to do almost any damage and was getting killed in a matter of a few hits! I tried a few games incase it was just a really good group we were playing but the experience was consistent and really no fun at all.

 

How can this disparity be good for balanced gameplay? By having Expertise in the game it is forcing us to get separate gear just for PVP simply to compete on the same level. In the mean time the players who have been L50 for longer and have their recruit PVP gear or upgraded to War-Hero stuff have a HUGE advantage over everyone else.

 

This is intentional. There's a reason Recruit gear can be bought with credits: you need Expertise for PvP. It's good and balanced because once you start getting your Battlemaster pieces, you become pretty much an even match for people in War Hero gear, and no matter how much gear you have, skill matters more, but gear will still make you better. The gap between the top 1% and the average person with BM is VERY small.

 

Sure I can appreciate if a character has been through OPs or other high level content and has got better gear that they should be more powerful, but the stat difference for better gear pales in comparrison to having several 100 expertise. They will still be over powered especially if I estimate the full Recruit set may have over 500+ expertise alone. Even with really good gear if I have no expertise I will be useless.

 

This was false before, but thankfully has been corrected. Before, having maximum Expertise (about 700) would put you at around an 11% swing. Full Rakata, even despite the horrid itemization, had so much in the way of main stats that it was worth MORE than 700 Expertise. You'd have nearly twice the health of someone in Battlemaster, and way more than +25% damage and healing stats.

 

Why is this part of the warzone design? Can it be removed to bring back an equal playing field or offer warzones with and without (maybe unranked warzones without and ranked warzones with)?

 

Personally I would like to see this stat removed as I see it ruining L50 warzones.

 

If it wont or cant be removed then give us the option to queue in games without it.

 

I just explained why this will never happen and why it's a good thing. In Warzones without expertise, expect to be dominated by gear even more. Since Expertise is so necessary, that is why Recruit exists. Get some Recruit and say hi to balanced PvP.

 

Also, if this gear is to remain I would like to see another tab (ala Outfitter mod in WoW) for PVP gear setup so I can change at one click all my items to PVP and not have to change them one by one and have them taking up another 10 or so slots in my bags.

 

This is in the works, aside from the bag space thing. Was supposed to be in 1.2, but not enough time. You barely need bag space in this game, so suck it up and buy more bag space upgrades if you want to PvP.

[Vid-szhite]

This is def the best reasoning. Before you could even get Champion and skip a lot of PVE content. Straight to HMs if you weren't stupid.

 

It's the inverse, actually. They never really minded Champ being decent in PvE, which is why they kept it the way it was.

[sugewise]

Because without expertise, player skill would be blatantly obvious. This system keeps the wow bads thinking that they aren't bad, thus keeping them in the game.