Pop Zen before or after burns?

[Eula-Tos]

I've read a zillion threads on this, and I still don't know the answer to this question:

 

If you're using Zen in Juyo form, do you pop it BEFORE or AFTER you start your burns?

 

Thanks!

[neeman]

You've likely read that you should ideally pop Zen after putting three stacks of OS on your target. This would mean popping it after you start your burns. Edited April 22, 2012 by neeman

[Zouxx]

Honestly, I'm not sure how much it matters. Your next 6 DoT ticks are going to crit, so as long as you get all of them before your Zen buff expires (and if you're running the normal rotation I don't see how that won't happen) it should be the same. If you pop Zen when you have all three OS dots running, then theoretically you are going to eat through those Zen crits faster, letting you start stacking Centering again sooner, but I'm not sure how much of a DPS increase that is going to be.

 

The only rule I use is not popping Zen if I only have the Cauterize DoT on the target, since Caut ticks for less than a tick of OS, so you'd prefer to have OS dots crit and not waste stacks on Caut.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Zouxx

[Spungey]

I always hit Overload Saber and Zen together. By the time overload saber falls off I still have 1 stack of Zen left for Cauterize.

 

Popping it at 3 stacks of overload saber doesn't seem optimal. At 2 stacks, overload saber crits are higher than cauterize. By hitting them at the same time you will get 1 crit from 1 stack, another crit at 2 stacks and 3 crits at 3 stacks leaving 1 left for cauterize.

 

But it's all personal preference.

[Smuglebunny]

Personaly I leap, Overload Sabers in the air, zealous strike, cauterize, ZEN, merc slash or merc slash, ZEN etc.

 

So hit it when you have both OS and Cauterize on target i prefer to do it at 2 stacks to get in merc slash before I run out of focus but it doesnt matter.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Smuglebunny

[Ovan_Oh-One]

Personally I do it as Leap > Overload (midair) > Zealous Strike (1 stack) > Merciless Slash (2 stacks) > Cauterize (3 stacks) > Zen.

 

Whatever works I suppose.

[skouaire]

Personally I do it as Leap > Overload (midair) > Zealous Strike (1 stack) > Merciless Slash (2 stacks) > Cauterize (3 stacks) > Zen.

 

Whatever works I suppose.

 

Well you play wrong, because Merc Slash has 66% chance to reset the cauterize cooldown.

 

So : OS > ZS > Caut > MS > Zen.

 

RTFM.

[Zag_Stratos]

It really depends on what you're aiming for. If you're trying to attain a certain burst, use Zen after stacking all your burns... timing is key but you'll suddenly see a bunch of crit ticks going off in very very short period of time.

 

Simply put: Overload Saber, hit the target 3 times with whatever hits you want and Zen him...

 

This is mostly important in PVP. In PVE, whatever... Pop Zen, stack some burns here and there, they will crit.

 

Edited April 24, 2012 by Zag_Stratos

[Elear]

Clearly asking this here is pointless, since everyone have his own opinion and you get another zillion answers.

 

So, things to keep in mind related to this:

OS ticks when new stack is applied, then after 3 sec and 6

Cauterize seems to tick every second, 6 times

You don't gain centering stacks while zen/transcendence/hero is active.

Zen autocrits heals extra.

 

Cauterize can eat up all your Zen stacks and deals meh damage per Zen stack compared to OS at 2 or 3 stacks.

Trying to not give any stacks of Zen to cauterize results in avoiding it for quite long time, and also not getting centering stacks for similar time.

Burns can crit on their own.

 

For maximized healing, you want to pop Zen before doing any damage, and apply Cauterize together with OS.

For maximized damage, I would use it before 2nd stack of OS, and apply third one with Cauterize, and then Strike/ZS/MS since can't get new Centering stacks anyway.

[FadedSpark]

Clearly asking this here is pointless, since everyone have his own opinion and you get another zillion answers.

 

So, things to keep in mind related to this:

OS ticks when new stack is applied, then after 3 sec and 6

Cauterize seems to tick every second, 6 times

You don't gain centering stacks while zen/transcendence/hero is active.

Zen autocrits heals extra.

 

Cauterize can eat up all your Zen stacks and deals meh damage per Zen stack compared to OS at 2 or 3 stacks.

Trying to not give any stacks of Zen to cauterize results in avoiding it for quite long time, and also not getting centering stacks for similar time.

Burns can crit on their own.

 

For maximized healing, you want to pop Zen before doing any damage, and apply Cauterize together with OS.

For maximized damage, I would use it before 2nd stack of OS, and apply third one with Cauterize, and then Strike/ZS/MS since can't get new Centering stacks anyway.

 

I have to address this because this is crazy... ( the thread in general, not you. You have pretty solid info. )

 

There are good and bad things about Zen Cauterize.

 

Bad: Uses the entire thing. Bad if you have OS and merciless ready to go and are focusing solely on dps (Which, you shouldn't be unless you have tons of healers in PVP. )

Good: UBER heals. 6 guaranteed ticks in quick succession takes a HUGE load off PVE healers. If you have two sentinels doing this, it's an easy wipe-stop.

Edited April 24, 2012 by FadedSpark

[khsolo]

Well you play wrong, because Merc Slash has 66% chance to reset the cauterize cooldown.

 

So : OS > ZS > Caut > MS > Zen.

 

RTFM.

 

That rotation doesnt work cause you dont have enough focus for MS after cauterize

 

Usually

 

leap + 3

oz -3

zs + 6

ms -5 (but returns one if the ability is selected) = -4

You are left with 2 focus for cauterize

 

In your rotation

 

leap +3

oz -3

zs + 6

cauterize -2

You are left with 4 focus and ms requires 5 focus

Edited April 24, 2012 by khsolo

[Smuglebunny]

I think you end up getting the other 1 focus from the way the skill tree is specced you end up having exactly enough focus. I think the leap is +4. I know you get 10 and expend 10... I think..im pretty sure...

 

Leap, OS, ZS, Caut, MercSlash, zen

Edited April 25, 2012 by Smuglebunny

[blazerSERVE]

I think you end up getting the other 1 focus from the way the skill tree is specced you end up having exactly enough focus. I think the leap is +4. I know you get 10 and expend 10... I think..im pretty sure...

 

Leap, OS, ZS, Caut, MercSlash, zen

 

Your right, this is how the focus is played out in that Combo:

Force leap: Generates 4 Focus (only with Focused Leap Talent)

OS: Spends 3 focus, you have 1 left over

ZS: Generates 6 focus, you now have 7 focus

Cauterize: spends 2 focus, you now have 5 focus

MERCSlash: Spends 5 focus, you now have 0 focus

 

I use zen cauterize for burst healing when I need it so that combo is very situational. It does nice DMG and I get healed at the same time, if I time this with my medpack I'm golden.

 

When it comes to DPS with the Burns I always get 3 stacks(sometimes 2) of OS first then pop zen. I still get heals but not as quickly.

Edited April 25, 2012 by blazerSERVE

[Xereck]

Well you play wrong, because Merc Slash has 66% chance to reset the cauterize cooldown.

 

So : OS > ZS > Caut > MS > Zen.

 

RTFM.

 

Took the words right out of my fingers

[Xereck]

That rotation doesnt work cause you dont have enough focus for MS after cauterize

 

Usually

 

leap + 3

oz -3

zs + 6

ms -5 (but returns one if the ability is selected) = -4

You are left with 2 focus for cauterize

 

In your rotation

 

leap +3

oz -3

zs + 6

cauterize -2

You are left with 4 focus and ms requires 5 focus

Thats why i took the increase focus from force leap ( http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#501bIrRrRbcsZhGM.1) Best WM spec.

[Xereck]

I've read a zillion threads on this, and I still don't know the answer to this question:

 

If you're using Zen in Juyo form, do you pop it BEFORE or AFTER you start your burns?

 

Thanks!

 

Before you start stacking overload sabers as it last for 3 secs but it can only deal dmg every 1.5 secs so it will only consume 3 zen and then that leaves 3 for cauterize, also pop a crit/surge relic and a surge adrenal while zenned for some really nice health and dmg returns. :wea_12

[muradi]

the basic rule is no zen if less than 2 stacks of overload saber on target. Spam zen.

[JustinxDuff]

General rotation:

 

Charge > Overload Saber > Zealous Strike (1 stack) > Cauterize (1 stack) > Slash (1 stack) > Zen/Master Strike > Merciless Slash > Dispatch > Cauterize (if MS drops the CD)

 

Huge burst at the end of the rotation. You want to try to get your big zen ticks while you are master striking for the increased burst.

Edited April 25, 2012 by JustinxDuff

[khsolo]

Thats why i took the increase focus from force leap ( http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#501bIrRrRbcsZhGM.1) Best WM spec.

 

Good call, i was missing this extra focus but after 1.2 i checked it, ill surelly change the rotation now cause cauterize before is better than after

 

Ty for sharing

[Zouxx]

It's worth pointing out while it's good to practice this stuff on the dummy or use in PvP or in smaller groups, if you raid with more than one Sentinel it's nearly impossible to keep track of your burn stacks on the target by looking at the debuff window. I raid in a 16 man with three other Sents so looking at debuffs is worthless. Yeah, I can usually keep track in my head of how many stacks I've applied, but when it gets fast and furious in a boss fight it's easy to forget. There really needs to be an option to filter debuff so that only your own show up on the target frame.

[Foxcolt]

Thats why i took the increase focus from force leap ( http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#501bIrRrRbcsZhGM.1) Best WM spec.

 

I can't even tell if this spec is for PVE or PVP..it fails hard for either.

 

No burning focus? fail for PVE, no ravager/master focus? Thats a good portion of DPS you're skipping out on (assuming you're using master strike on cooldown like you should be).

 

Not even one point in close quarters? fail for PVP

 

Did you spec this way just for target dummy dps?

 

Also..to the guy who can't keep track of his burns during boss fights..you can look at your own buffs to see how many stacks of overload/deadly saber are left in your own buff bar...since each bleed on the boss is represented differently it's pretty easy to match up how many stacks you have left to how many are on the boss to see which bleeds are yours.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Foxcolt

[blazerSERVE]

I can't even tell if this spec is for PVE or PVP..it fails hard for either.

 

No burning focus? fail for PVE, no ravager/master focus? Thats a good portion of DPS you're skipping out on (assuming you're using master strike on cooldown like you should be).

 

Not even one point in close quarters? fail for PVP

 

Did you spec this way just for target dummy dps?

 

Also..to the guy who can't keep track of his burns during boss fights..you can look at your own buffs to see how many stacks of overload/deadly saber are left in your own buff bar...since each bleed on the boss is represented differently it's pretty easy to match up how many stacks you have left to how many are on the boss to see which bleeds are yours.

 

Agreed ^. Your gonna want Master Focus because Master Strikes damage was buffed in 1.2 significantly, so with the Talent: master Focus, the moves becomes even more powerful.

 

Burning Focus is also Essential. My logic goes like this, Your always gonna be burning someone as a Watchmen sentinel with OS/cauterize so with this talent your getting more focus back during a fight allowing you to use more abilities.

 

Having Two points in Close quarters is essential, because it basically turns your Force leap into an interrupt that works at any RANGE. And you can get 4 focus at any range as well, dont have to leap to some then go back to the guy you were bashing on.

 

I don't use watchguard in my build because I dont think decreasing the CD of Pacify and Force Kick is a necessity. Yes, it's 2 seconds less on force kick, however Sentinels have other interrupts like Force Leap, Awe, Force Stasis, and i can usually take out healers within these four interrupts if assisted that is. If your a BAD healer, then prolly just gonna roll through you assisted or not.

 

I also don't use force fade. Force Camo as it is right now is just fine IMO.

 

My build if anyone cares: http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/jedi_knight/sentinel/#::fe2f2ef14efe3fe11f10ef5df2:

Edited April 25, 2012 by blazerSERVE

[andrew_b_gross]

My build if anyone cares: http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/jedi_knight/sentinel/#::fe2f2ef14efe3fe11f10ef5df2:

 

Why not one point in Jedi Crusader and only two in Dual Wield Mastery? Isn't the extra focus worth more than the paltry 12% on off-hand attacks?

[blazerSERVE]

Why not one point in Jedi Crusader and only two in Dual Wield Mastery? Isn't the extra focus worth more than the paltry 12% on off-hand attacks?

 

Rebuke: Reduces all damage taken by 20% and deals 134 energy damage to attackers. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. Lasts 6 seconds. Rebuke refreshes to its full duration when attacked, but this effect cannot last more than 30 seconds in total.

 

Jedi Crusader: rebuke has a 50% chance to generate 1 focus when it reciprocates damage to an attacker. This effect cannot occur more than once every 3 seconds.

 

So the maximum Amount of Focus you Could POSSIBLY gain from having 1-point in the Jedi Crusader talent is 4 correct?

 

I do not think that Extra 4 focus is essential because we get focus in plenty of other ways: strike, ZS, leap, Stasis, Burning focus talent and Focused Slash talent. Between these Two Talents and focus generating abilities, I don't find myself focus starved ever, so if I were to spec into Jedi Crusader I would just lose DPS on my off hand strikes.

[andrew_b_gross]

Rebuke: Reduces all damage taken by 20% and deals 134 energy damage to attackers. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. Lasts 6 seconds. Rebuke refreshes to its full duration when attacked, but this effect cannot last more than 30 seconds in total.

 

Jedi Crusader: rebuke has a 50% chance to generate 1 focus when it reciprocates damage to an attacker. This effect cannot occur more than once every 3 seconds.

 

So the maximum Amount of Focus you Could POSSIBLY gain from having 1-point in the Jedi Crusader talent is 4 correct?

 

I do not think that Extra 4 focus is essential because we get focus in plenty of other ways: strike, ZS, leap, Stasis, Burning focus talent and Focused Slash talent. Between these Two Talents and focus generating abilities, I don't find myself focus starved ever, so if I were to spec into Jedi Crusader I would just lose DPS on my off hand strikes.

 

I don't understand your math. Where do you get the number 4 from?

 

If you're being attacked, Rebuke is up for half the fight. It continuously refreshes because you're being attacked, up to the 30 second maximum, so it's up for 30 seconds at a time. The CD on it is 60 seconds. So it's up for half the fight (again, for those fights where you're taking damage-- and yes, getting hit with an AOE on a boss fight DOES refresh Rebuke).

 

During the time that it's up, it deals damage every 1.5 seconds, assuming you're being continuously attacked or taking continuous damage from an AOE. Obviously that's a best-case scenario, but you were claiming that 4 was the absolute maximum, so we need to consider best-case.

 

Every time it deals damage, you have a 50% chance (with only a single skill point) or 100% chance (with two skill points) of gaining focus, but you can't gain focus more than once in 3 seconds, which is why I only go with a single point-- the 2nd point seems like it would be wasted much of the time.

 

So in a single 30 seconds stretch, Rebuke could fire 20 times (if you were constantly being attacked), and best case you'd gain 10 focus. So that's 10 focus in 30 seconds (and also 10 focus in 60 seconds, since for the next 30 seconds Rebuke is down).

 

Is my math off? If so, where?

Edited April 26, 2012 by andrew_b_gross