How viable is assault for pvp?

[wishihadaname]

Theoretically, the combination of plasma cell, plasma nade, and the assault fire nade should add up to a blistering amount of damage. HiB hits like a truck and free resets are nice but how does this stack up against gunnery, increased mobility and shorter survival coolsdowns included? The only real downside I'm seeing to assault ATM is higher ammo usage and being unable to use concussion round once I open up on someone due to dots.

[MrMeowington]

Gear and skill being equal, gunnery will out dps assault. Gunnery has more sustained dps and more reliable burst. Assault is decent if you just want to run around dotting people and not necessarily killing them.

 

Assault has more a little more utility in huttball considering the slows and the increased mobility, but as a gunnery commando I can control mid and melt anyone trying to pick up a neutral ball.

Edited April 20, 2012 by MrMeowington

[Lokeel]

I just recently switched over from being a ComMed. Assault is a very viable spec in pvp. You may not have the initial burst as Gunnery, but you gain a huge boost to mobility, staying out of glow stick range has really proven itself to be a better deal than shooting a Grav Round.

 

Having said that, understanding your rotation will be the most important part to succeeding. I have gotten top 3 damage in with a few pieces of Centurion gear I got before 1.2. Amongst the Sorcerers and Marauders as well. The biggest issue thing to remember is your reliance on Himp Bolt. Using it before the Full Auto proc will give you a nice boost since it resets the cooldown of Himp Bolt and makes it free. Keeping the Plasma cell debuff and incendiary round effect are also crucial.

 

With only being on it for 2 days I have to say the ability to run around and slow people with Plasma Cell, with the added CDR on Adrenaline Rush and Reactive Shield, you have some surprising durability. In Alderaan sitting in between your healers and CC teammates is where we are best since we can support both groups.

 

Even though Gunnery may out dps they have to sit still while doing so, and can be interrupted. Wheras the only time we channel something is the Full Auto or Charged Bolts for the Himp Bolt proc. Every thing else is instant (Assault Plastique, Incendiary Round, HammerBurst, Himp Bolt, and Stockstriking [When possible]).

 

My experience so far has shown Assault to be the better PVP class. PVE I will give to Gunnery.

[oaceen]

Gear and skill being equal, gunnery will out dps assault. Gunnery has more sustained dps and more reliable burst. Assault is decent if you just want to run around dotting people and not necessarily killing them.

 

Assault has more a little more utility in huttball considering the slows and the increased mobility, but as a gunnery commando I can control mid and melt anyone trying to pick up a neutral ball.

 

post 1.2 (and especially post 1.2.0c), this gap in burst dps is a LOT smaller.

 

and if you're playing assault just to run around DOTing everyone (instead of focusing on one target at a time), you're definitely not going to kill anything.

[Kailmanson]

Assault spec is great. You are not planted to the ground like you are with gunnery. The problem is most people in assault spec want to spam something becuase they just came from gunnery, in other words they are used to spamming grav round.

 

-assault lets u run and gun and use LOS to kill people

- you cant be shut down from an interupt like u can with grav round.

- its actually a better 1v1 spec since u are not having to stand there and be a free target

 

the only thing i wish they would do is change the plastique to an aoe..... especially since it shares the timer with the grenade

Edited April 20, 2012 by Kailmanson

[Aaoogaa]

Assault spec is great. You are not planted to the ground like you are with gunnery. The problem is most people in assault spec want to spam something becuase they just came from gunnery, in other words they are used to spamming grav round.

 

-assault lets u run and gun and use LOS to kill people

- you cant be shut down from an interupt like u can with grav round.

- its actually a better 1v1 spec since u are not having to stand there and be a free target

 

the only thing i wish they would do is change the plastique to an aoe..... especially since it shares the timer with the grenade

 

As gunnery only the bads are shut down with an interrupt. I destroy assault 1 v 1 as gunnery...why? You still don't have an interrupt and I can remove your dots. If you are going to run assault then go vanguard where the spec shines. Neither spec is currently great but at least gunnery is carrying a great deal of burst so when left alone it cuts through players in 4-6 seconds.

[Kailmanson]

then your not playing against someone who knows assault spec, knows how to pvp, and knows how to los. Bottom line is Gunnery gets shut down. Hard. Interupt whether u want to admit it or not greatly effects your casting order and routine. Los screws you since verything is 2 sec cast.

 

Assault is almost all insta cast

[xxIncubixx]

As gunnery only the bads are shut down with an interrupt. I destroy assault 1 v 1 as gunnery...why? You still don't have an interrupt and I can remove your dots. If you are going to run assault then go vanguard where the spec shines. Neither spec is currently great but at least gunnery is carrying a great deal of burst so when left alone it cuts through players in 4-6 seconds.

 

what? maybe against baddies. A marauder with half a brain will destroy u. period.

[Aaoogaa]

what? maybe against baddies. A marauder with half a brain will destroy u. period.

 

Will destroy assault also...there will be no outcome difference.

[Yakito]

I went Assault for the weekend and had mixed feelings. We kept losing so it also made me quite displeased. Then I went Gunnery and it was a lot more "fun".

Either way, if a Marauder decides that I need to die, I die.

[Aaoogaa]

then your not playing against someone who knows assault spec, knows how to pvp, and knows how to los. Bottom line is Gunnery gets shut down. Hard. Interupt whether u want to admit it or not greatly effects your casting order and routine. Los screws you since verything is 2 sec cast.

 

Assault is almost all insta cast

 

Last I checked I have the same amount of insta cast abilities as assault...except I can remove your dots. You can go play hide and seek all you want while I destroy 2-3 of your teammates. The minute you come out to actually do some damage will be your demise. Assault as commando is a poor mans kiting spec. Play it as vanguard and you will actually see what assault can do.

[wishihadaname]

I just started my mando recently but here is the spec i've come up with. So far in the sub 50 wz's I can't break the 2.5k hit but I can out heal everything short of a marauder. Combined with well timed knockbacks, concussion rounds and cryo nades I can tear apart almost anyone 1v1 simply by ccing them and then healing myself to full in 3-4 probes followed by a reload. I had an assault vanguard before my sister thought it would be hilarious to log onto my account and delete my characters, but with the recent nerf to the assault/tank hybrid I'm guessing his survivability would now suck and his range has gotten no better. Assuming that the enemy doesn't have someone with a hardon for me, i'm actually finding I live longer as an assault mando simply because I don't have to be in the melee deathball to dps and I can heal my own wounds. The ability to troll marauders by kiting them into oblivion is also rather entertaining.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#800rrM0ozZMZbIMrzGGM.1

[oaceen]

Last I checked I have the same amount of insta cast abilities as assault...

 

except you really don't know how to play your class if you're using them as often as assault

[Fight]

Last I checked I have the same amount of insta cast abilities as assault...except I can remove your dots. You can go play hide and seek all you want while I destroy 2-3 of your teammates. The minute you come out to actually do some damage will be your demise. Assault as commando is a poor mans kiting spec. Play it as vanguard and you will actually see what assault can do.

 

Yes, you're cutting down 2-3 people and then switching to that assault and putting him away too. Thats happening.

[Gyronamics]

As gunnery only the bads are shut down with an interrupt. I destroy assault 1 v 1 as gunnery...why? You still don't have an interrupt and I can remove your dots. If you are going to run assault then go vanguard where the spec shines. Neither spec is currently great but at least gunnery is carrying a great deal of burst so when left alone it cuts through players in 4-6 seconds.

 

That's what a guildy thought.

 

Then I used LOS on him and he died every time.

 

I wont sit in the open for a duel biased to you. I'm not the turret and turrets hate moving.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Gyronamics

[HazardOOI]

That's what a guildy thought.

 

Then I used LOS on him and he died every time.

 

I wont sit in the open for a duel biased to you. I'm not the turret and turrets hate moving.

 

Sounds like your guildie sucked to be blunt. I get the impression he didn't remove your DoTs nor use the LoS time to heal, did he just try to chase you around or stand there wondering what to do?

 

Even if he's actually amazing and still got beaten by assault spec, this 1v1 ofAS vs. Gunnery is a silly thing to debate. I don't pick my tree based on whether it can win 1v1 against a single specific other tree and forget the rest of the players out there.

 

I also don't understand these claims of AS mobility. I have a powertech pyrotech around 45 as well as my 50 gunnery commando. My experience with pyrotech says life revolves around your free HiB procing. And for a commando getting that proc means standing still and using full auto/charged bolts. Just like how gunnery uses grav round to set up other damage, you have to use charged bolts to get a proc on HiB.

 

We have the same number of instant abilities, you just get to use yours right away whereas are better off throwing out a couple grav rounds first.

[Gyronamics]

Sounds like your guildie sucked to be blunt. I get the impression he didn't remove your DoTs nor use the LoS time to heal, did he just try to chase you around or stand there wondering what to do?

 

Even if he's actually amazing and still got beaten by assault spec, this 1v1 ofAS vs. Gunnery is a silly thing to debate. I don't pick my tree based on whether it can win 1v1 against a single specific other tree and forget the rest of the players out there.

 

I also don't understand these claims of AS mobility. I have a powertech pyrotech around 45 as well as my 50 gunnery commando. My experience with pyrotech says life revolves around your free HiB procing. And for a commando getting that proc means standing still and using full auto/charged bolts. Just like how gunnery uses grav round to set up other damage, you have to use charged bolts to get a proc on HiB.

 

We have the same number of instant abilities, you just get to use yours right away whereas are better off throwing out a couple grav rounds first.

 

Yeah nice libel on my guildy. He's pretty good actually.

 

Assault lacks the mechanics to beat Gunnery in an open ground fight. Gunnery can't fight meaningfully without casts.

 

Throw out a couple of grav rounds? The way to LOS is to make enemy casting fail by breaking visual. Gunnery needs to have good visual or their damage goes to hell in a handcart.

 

And when neither player can cast, assault has more tools. Fire gives an instant full buff to them and requires no cast time to apply, often no cost either (cleansing a free DoT is not productive). Gunnery can instant one grav but after 15s it's pretty short on things to allow use of the (unbuffed) HiB.

 

Another trick Assault can do, FA procs a free HiB at the start of its cast, not the end. I just start FA and if the opponent gets frisky, I just cancel the rest of the FA, hit HiB and break LoS again.

 

Of course you can have a mexican standoff where Assault stays close to cover and Gunnery sits out in the open each waiting for the other to weaken themselves by leaving their fighting zone.

 

 

As for going for damage, yes, Assault has to stand still to use a proper rotation. The mobile damage bit is about the damage that Assault can still do while running around (which can be for a lot of reasons), that's higher than Gunnery. Also probably why Assault has a lower DPS in ideal conditions than gunnery because that's considered to be an advantage.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Gyronamics

[HazardOOI]

 

Throw out a couple of grav rounds? The way to LOS is to make enemy casting fail by breaking visual. Gunnery needs to have good visual or their damage goes to hell in a handcart.

 

Which is why after the first couple times someone goes running around a pillar you either reposition, use knockback to reposition them, or simply disengage.

 

 

And when neither player can cast, assault has more tools.

 

Gunnery: unbuffed Demo round, sticky grenade, depending on the effects on an enemy HiB vs. Assault plastique, AS's HiB, and the initial damage + maybe a tick or incend round.

 

and really, to LoS a 1.3 activation time like grav round, you've got to be right on the edge of LoS just to have time to react when you see the bar filling and beat server to client latency. If the gunnery guy is trying to stand there and use it when you're obviously that close to LoS instead of using instants & moving to a better position, he's not doing a good job.

 

Fire gives an instant full buff to them and requires no cast time to apply, often no cost either (cleansing a free DoT is not productive).

 

Using 1 ammo to cleanse a DoT while you're out of LoS is plenty productive. Although depending on the DoT it maybe better to use AMP.

 

Another trick Assault can do, FA procs a free HiB at the start of its cast, not the end. I just start FA and if the opponent gets frisky, I just cancel the rest of the FA, hit HiB and break LoS again.

 

This is true and useful.

 

Of course you can have a mexican standoff where Assault stays close to cover and Gunnery sits out in the open each waiting for the other to weaken themselves by leaving their fighting zone.

 

Gunnery can use LoS to it's advantage also. You have to get a couple grav rounds on them first if you want your full damage, but playing LoS games is still very advantageous. The gunnery guy being out in the open doesn't help him (you don't want to get targetted, and if you do get targetted you want to be able to fall back to somewhere, being in the open is deadly), choosing targets that are out in the open does.

 

 

As for going for damage, yes, Assault has to stand still to use a proper rotation. The mobile damage bit is about the damage that Assault can still do while running around (which can be for a lot of reasons), that's higher than Gunnery. Also probably why Assault has a lower DPS in ideal conditions than gunnery because that's considered to be an advantage.

 

This depends greatly on whether the gunnery player got a couple grav rounds off before having to move. 4 grav vortexes + charged barrel + buffed demo round + HiB + sticky grenade is a lot more powerful than just plain demo round + sticky grenade.

 

The mobile damage maybe slightly higher for AS when you comparing each spec in ideal circumstances, but the real advantage to AS I think is that it gets to use the instants and it's setup abilities immediately, whereas gunnery has to stand still for a few seconds minimum to get his target prepped for the real damage and/or instants.

Edited April 22, 2012 by HazardOOI

[Centaurius]

while you cleanse that dot ill heal that grav round, fun little circle jerk isn't it? Edited April 22, 2012 by Centaurius

[Sagaboy]

Which is why after the first couple times someone goes running around a pillar you either reposition, use knockback to reposition them, or simply disengage.

 

That goes both ways. You KB. I Cryo and close distance or LoS depending on situation. If you are repositioning you are not firing while my buffed hammershot and AP whittle you down. Keep in my that my KB serves as an interupt as well, while pretty much the only skill you would need to interrupt on my end would be C. Bolt or FA all of which are non essential as I only need the first tick of FA to possibly proc HiB.

 

 

Gunnery: unbuffed Demo round, sticky grenade, depending on the effects on an enemy HiB vs. Assault plastique, AS's HiB, and the initial damage + maybe a tick or incend round.

 

and really, to LoS a 1.3 activation time like grav round, you've got to be right on the edge of LoS just to have time to react when you see the bar filling and beat server to client latency. If the gunnery guy is trying to stand there and use it when you're obviously that close to LoS instead of using instants & moving to a better position, he's not doing a good job.

 

I won't debate this as I have not done the damage analysis. However, I will say using demo round with no grav round debuffs (from what I recall) was piss poor damage. If you're saying my DoT proc'ing Hammershot + AP + HiB + ...no don't even factor in demo round will get out paced by ...well anything gunnery related in an Los dancing mobile encounter please provide me with the name of your weed supplier as it must be the stickiest of the ikcy.

 

Using 1 ammo to cleanse a DoT while you're out of LoS is plenty productive. Although depending on the DoT it maybe better to use AMP.

 

You keep mentioning the cleansing of DoTs. Which essentially means that you have to burn both a GCD and 1 ammo. Now assuming I'm doing it right and you are doing all this repositioning you keep talking about, I grant you that ammo should be the least of your concerns (as you have not had much time to gain a stationary position and spam attacks). The beauty of Assault is that one of my primary means of dps is the instant free Hammershot which again procs a DoT which you much cleanse. But, again the whole time you are repositioning, and cleansing I'm hammering away. Damage that you can easily heal through given time but if you're using a heal then ammo becomes a real issue.

 

 

Gunnery can use LoS to it's advantage also. (1)You have to get a couple grav rounds on them first if you want your full damage, but playing LoS games is still very advantageous. (2)The gunnery guy being out in the open doesn't help him (you don't want to get targetted, and if you do get targetted you want to be able to fall back to somewhere, being in the open is deadly), choosing targets that are out in the open does.

 

(1) If we can agree that each commando in a 1 v 1 is competent. Exactly when do you think you'll get these couple of grav rounds off. If it were me, unless otherwise specified I'm starting our encounter from some angle, some point of attack where LoS breaking is easily accessible. That is to say that you might (MIGHT) get 2 G Rounds before I render such attempts null and void. My whole strat would be to ensure that you don't get a couple of grav rounds stacked.

 

(2) Ummmmmm..... Actually the ideal setting for a 1 v 1 for gunnery is a wide open flat piece of terrain with no LoS obstacles. In such a scenario it would become a DPS race that an AS Commando would flat out lose. I think this is an issue of context. If you're talking about group PvP, I'd say you're partially correct in that you don't want yourself exposed; however, you do want an unobstructed view of the enemy. Everything else in this post was about a gunnery vs assault spec command - in which case you would want Open space.

 

 

The mobile damage maybe slightly higher for AS when you comparing each spec in ideal circumstances, but the real advantage to AS I think is that it gets to use the instants and it's setup abilities immediately, whereas gunnery has to stand still for a few seconds minimum to get his target prepped for the real damage and/or instants.

 

And this is exactly why an AS vs Gunnery goes to the AS assuming equal skill / gear. If there is one 360 obstacle (i.e. a pillar) then the gunnery is screwed. If there is one object to dance around then the battle goes to the AS. And that is because our attacks would force you into a defensive mindset; wherein, cleansing and kb'ing become your main assets. Even if you consider the Gunnery spec using Hammershot himself it is not as useful as assault spec has talents which (on hit) reduce the cooldown of both shield and adren rush so hammershot would actually help more than hinder. You need your 3-5 G. Round + D. Round + full FA barrage which an AS would work like hell to insure you never got. You need as few attacks as possible to hit as hard as possible, as quickly as humanly possible.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Sagaboy

[Keinhoran]

Whether we like it or not commando it has been hampered by developers.

They decided to reduce the ammount of damage our class can do ( according to their metrics) but they have given us no extra skills to allow us to survive.

Not only that but assault remains one of the most ammo consuming tree for all classes and its dots can be cleansed.

Even if some of us claim that assault is more mobile than gunnery they have to consider the following:

 

To activate HiB you need to cast either FA ( 3 sec channeling) or ChargBolt ( 1.5 sec cast) and if you are lucky the cooldown on HiB will be rested. In a competitive PvP you will be taking a lot of aggro if you stay still for 5 secs .

 

Now for the ammo:

Plasma nade : 4 ammo

HiB: 1 ammo or no ammo cost depending on the cooldown.

Charged bolts: 2 ammo if you have specced on from gunnery tree.

FA: 2 ammo.

Explosive round: 3 ammo ( but noone is using it unless to prevent a cap so no help from this skill to increase your burst ).

Assault Plastique: 2 ammo ( shares the same cooldown with sticky grenade and it is kinetic damage which can be mitigated ).

Sticky nade: 2 ammo ( but if you are specced in Assault plastique propably you will not be using it )

I do know that some of our tools will help us regenerate some ammo and make our abilities ammo free and instant but they are on a long cooldown.

So if you need to burst someone you will need a rotation of atleast three or four skills which will drop your ammo below the optimal regeneration ammo number so you will need to spam the pew pew with a 16% chance to proc plasma on the target ( which of course can be cleansed).

So what were the developers thinking when they created this tree for this class? I suppose nothing .

Anyway i hope that devs will open a thread and listen our suggestion to improve the performance of mando even if that means we will not share a tree with vanguards.

And honestly since we can not be vanguards and commandos at will there is no point to have a shared tree.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Keinhoran

[oaceen]

i don't think any assault spec 1v1 gunnery spec arguments are going to answer the thread's question of whether or not assault is viable in PVP

 

even if we assume the gunnery completely shuts down assault, that's ONE spec of ONE AC (plus the mirror if you want to get technical)

there's group fights and plenty of other 1v1 scenarios that could be examined to see if assault is viable or not.

 

 

and in the end, the question is "would gunnery or combat medic (or some hybrid) be better significantly in all of these situations regardless of personal playstyle than assault?"

Edited April 23, 2012 by oaceen

[MasterRodimus]

I have played Gunnery Commando from start of SWTOR.

Now with 1.2c out I found out i had to change my tactics from Gunnery to Assult Spec.

 

The big different now, I live, and I can 1v1 and win. Im more mobile with AS compared to Gunnery.

But if I go PVEing, people want me to switch to Gunnery for the higher DPS.

 

Overall AS is better for PVP because your mobile and can't be interruped like you can in gunnery.

 

Now I come in top 3 in Damage and I can defend nodes again, and win in 1v1 like pre-1.2 Gunnery Commando.

 

Final Thoughs:

HEALS: Combat Medic

PVP: Assualt Spec

PVE: Gunnery

 

It seems thats how bioware is now intended for Commandos to play, so better get learning and get use to it.

[PacificaSolaria]

Out of curiosity what type of skill tree are you assault commandos running? Edited April 25, 2012 by PacificaSolaria

[CougarLee]

3/7/31 all day. it is VERY viable.

- instant cast

- nice rotation (AP, IR, HiB, FA, HiB, CB) rinse repeat. You may have to cast 2 CB is FA does not proc a second HiB.

- IMO Parrallactic Combat Stims is the best talent in the entire game for pvp. There is no CD for it, and so many classes have roots/snare/stuns/knockbacks/dazes that they are CONSTANTLY giving you ammo back.

Is it as good as Gunnery pre 1.2? Def not. Can BW suck a mean one for breaking the Gunn tree? Absolutely.

but with 3k+ crits from AP and HiB, good FA dmg, and the dots, you can put someone down pretty easy.

 

..........and lets be honest, if they didnt change anything for 1.2, we would be hitting ppl with demo round for over 10k with the fix to expertise

Edited April 25, 2012 by CougarLee