Why do fresh 50's have the same gear as me

[dazednconfuzed]

Players that are interested in competition would favor an even playing field.

 

This is true.

 

Unfortunately, to a lot of PvP'ers out there, competitive means 'I have an unfair advantage'.

[fuzzDONTEVENTRIP]

Players that are interested in competition would favor an even playing field.

 

Players who KNOW what competition is all about look for an edge in EVERY aspect of the game. Players who are competitive will take every advantage given to them and utilize it to its fullest extent.

 

If you arent taking advantage of your opponents weaknesses then youre just a bad competitive player. Exploit the other team and win

 

-fuzz

[Kaszmann]

3 days is long enough to farm for gear, some of us have lives.

 

HEHE, good one...

 

Do You realize that 3 days to get such a gear is NOTHING compared to farming it for weeks or even more before 1.2 ? I do understand u 're not hardcore player that can spent 5+hours a day in game (just like me), but its like in real if u want to achieve something u must put some effort in it, easy as that

 

Besides, i think taking out valor req for BM set wasn't the best idea, when u got RECRUIT set for free we can say. No big deal (just about 260k credits for full set), while before 1.2 u had to farm it for much longer (both champion and centurion)... By giving free recruit set, they should stay with BM valor req, but maybe boost recruit a bit... just a thought

 

I'm just saying that i do understand ppl complaining about how easy u can get it now, while we really had to work for it

[Jeskelech]

Players who KNOW what competition is all about look for an edge in EVERY aspect of the game. Players who are competitive will take every advantage given to them and utilize it to its fullest extent.

 

If you arent taking advantage of your opponents weaknesses then youre just a bad competitive player. Exploit the other team and win

 

-fuzz

 

Well I guess you have to learn to find weaknesses other than inferior gear!

Edited April 19, 2012 by Jeskelech

[TheSnipe]

This is one of the many many reasons that GW2 is going to crush this game.

That's what they said about this game.

[DarkDruidSS]

I have always been torn on this issue. On one hand you have the gear progression which everyone has come to expect out of a MMO and is kinda the defining aspect of an MMO. I mean without some kind of progression people would stop playing. Which is why even FPS games like Battlefield, Call of Duty and Halo all have some kind of progression to retain players. If you think otherwise you are wrong. There is a reason that Battlefield and Call of Duty follow this model and yes, even the guns/attachments unlocked later are better than the ones you start with... there is no getting around that. Halo is less like this and more about cosmetic unlocks, but then you don't really start matches with preset gear and classes, so they can't do the whole attachments and gun unlock thing.

 

So from that stand point I can agree that we need something to progress our characters. From a PvP standpoint...you want fair fights to prove skill. That is what PvP is about and always have been. Back before PvP had it's own gear set... it was just PvP. Your skill vs their skill. I think a lot of PvPers want to return to this game state, but as a long time player. When hasn't gear made some impact on PvP? Even back before PvP gear sets you still had people with better PvE gear that would mop the floor with other people. I have been PvPing since EQ2 was released. I can't remember a game that was based souly around skill vs skill, yet this is the thing we are all fighting for in a MMO.

 

While I think a skill vs skill PvP game would be nice to prove competively that you are better than others... I think in the long run without some kind of progression then the game will die. People want to work towards something. Regardless of what you might think everyone hits a skill plateau. Once you hit that plateau it doesn't matter what you do, you aren't getting better. So the only thing you can do is progress through gear or unlocks... otherwise people just quit when they have had enough.

 

As far as a real world arguement about gear and skill. You just can't go there. You don't have stats in real life. You can't just make gear that gives a solid inherit advantage, but they are trying. Look at Golf. Look at all the clubs and irons that are supposed to give you some advantage over the others. Guess what? All pro players use special golf clubs. They want that advantage. Do you think it's truelly all about skill? NO. It's human nature to want the upper hand. Even in Baseball you have bats that are illegal to use because they give you an advantage on distance and steriods are illegal because they give you an advantage... but people still try to use those because they want that advantage.... Human nature once again.

 

My 2 cents... and I'm not sure I accomplished anything with my post. I see both sides, but I think progression is inevitable to retain players. I don't think cosmetic progression alone is enough.

[Syylara]

Players who KNOW what competition is all about look for an edge in EVERY aspect of the game. Players who are competitive will take every advantage given to them and utilize it to its fullest extent.

 

If you arent taking advantage of your opponents weaknesses then youre just a bad competitive player. Exploit the other team and win

 

-fuzz

 

There's a massive difference between studying your opponent, identifying their weaknesses, crafting a strategy to capitalize on them and then executing that plan with precision....

 

...and demanding that the system impose statistical performance differences based on how much you play.

 

If you put more time in the game, you should have more inherent skill, anyways. If you are getting outplayed by someone who has 1/10th the practice and experience as you, the solution is to step up your game, not ask the game to step you up automatically.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Syylara

[Arkerus]

BM is the current standard level PvP gear.

The game progresses and older gear is easier to obtain.

 

Sorry you grinded out hours of standing on illum but we really don't care. As the game moves on this happens. Get over it.

[TheMunny]

Theres no challenge for fresh 50s to get full basttlemaster now legit takes 3days prob less now u get 140 comms for a win lmfao.

 

The fun isn't grinding to get the gear, the fun is having 2 equally geared teams. I don't care if they give the damn gear out as soon as they hit 50!

[underjollyroger]

PVP gear is the absolute fun killer in PVP for me:

 

- when I defeat an undergeared guy I feel bad. When I see I'm winning because of my gear I often run away, before I make the kill, because it's pointless and I know it will only frustrate the other guy who tried everything, but stood no chance from the beginning. And I don't play to make others feel miserable, but to have fun myself and feel challenged.

 

- When I get defeated by someone just standing around pushing 1111112 I cannot say I have a lot of PVP fun either.

 

As soon as a game with NO PVP gear and special STATS comes out I'll never get back to these traditional games. In PVP I need titles, cosmetic augments and so on.

[fuzzDONTEVENTRIP]

There's a massive difference between studying your opponent, identifying their weaknesses, crafting a strategy to capitalize on them and then executing that plan with precision....

 

...and demanding that the system impose statistical performance differences based on how much you play.

 

If you put more time in the game, you should have more inherent skill, anyways. If you are getting outplayed by someone who has 1/10th the practice and experience as you, the solution is to step up your game, not ask the game to step you up automatically.

 

Automatically? How is gear progression automatic? Its not like PvE where you get X amount of pieces in every raid. You need to get better and work better with your team to win. Winning = your gear progression, or a lot of losing... With the BM system the way it is now, and the new comm system (gives a whole lot of comms to losers) there should be no complaining.

 

Im curious to know if the game was designed to be some sort of PvP primary game because from my view point, MMOs are supposed to be about getting the best gear possible through time put in and experience gained. This isnt Call of Duty where you can make a promod and have everyone on the same footing as one another. Want to know why games like CoD die after a few years? Because they become bland and boring. And this is coming from a competitive FPS player (no e-brag). Kill the flavor in PvP, you kill PvP. It may not be instant, but theres no point playing over and over and over and over and over again on the same 4 maps for nothing. But you say "its the satisfaction of winning on an equal playing field". Cool story! Thatll sustain people for a few weeks and everyone will be begging for more content. I hope if they do make PvP stale, they make PvE stale as well. Only natural, make 1 boss give everyone everything they need in their first go so even the PvPers like myself can be happy.

 

-fuzz

[DarkDruidSS]

PVP gear is the absolute fun killer in PVP for me:

 

- when I defeat an undergeared guy I feel bad. When I see I'm winning because of my gear I often run away, before I make the kill, because it's pointless and I know it will only frustrate the other guy who tried everything, but stood no chance from the beginning. And I don't play to make others feel miserable, but to have fun myself and feel challenged.

 

- When I get defeated by someone just standing around pushing 1111112 I cannot say I have a lot of PVP fun either.

 

As soon as a game with NO PVP gear and special STATS comes out I'll never get back to these traditional games. In PVP I need titles, cosmetic augments and so on.

 

I think once the initial novelity of a skill vs skill game wears off in the first couple months you will find yourself wanting more out of your game. Unable to get any other kind of progression and you will end up back in a game with gear progression. Of course you won't come back to SWTOR so I will never know for sure that I am right. But, I have a strong feeling that I am right and you are fooling yourself.

[Syylara]

Automatically? How is gear progression automatic? Its not like PvE where you get X amount of pieces in every raid. You need to get better and work better with your team to win. Winning = your gear progression, or a lot of losing... With the BM system the way it is now, and the new comm system (gives a whole lot of comms to losers) there should be no complaining.

 

-fuzz

 

If you are already winning, why do you need better gear?

 

It should also be noted that in this discussion, you are the one doing the complaining.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Syylara

[Darth_Philar]

There are three types of meta games in an MMO (not all types are always present, mind you):

 

1. PvE - Player versus Environment. You get to fight AI mobs, slay dragons, and otherwise defeat the computer. You may or may not need to team up with friendly AI or other friendly players and there may or may not be gear progression.

 

2. CvC - Character versus Character. The character under your control fights against characters under the control of other people. This system is characterized by gear tiers, FOTM Roulette, and Team Composition. Skill may be involved, but usually isn't. Examples of this are WoW and SWTOR.

 

3. PvP - Player versus Player. Gear disparity is not allowed. Stats are either normalized or removed in order to eliminate gear as a factor. Normal limitations include a smaller ability bar (preventing you from having access to all your abilities), abilities having different modifiers from the PvE ability of the same name, and a heavy reliance on player skill (timing, tactics, strategy, etc.). Few examples exist in the RPG world (since RPGs tend to be very focused on gear these days). GW is one example.

[Mattderp]

Oh, the "work for" "argument" again. Hello - games are not supposed to be work, but fun.

 

Do you understand the concept of MMO? It's about building your character up not just getting instant gratification from everything. Then again what would you know? Your first MMO was probably WoW cata.

[delano]

Oh, the "work for" "argument" again. Hello - games are not supposed to be work, but fun.

 

Wrong. CONSOLE games are supposed to be work-free. You don't need to be 18 to play Xbox, or use a credit card to pay for it. They are for kids. Games with no challange are for kids. MMO's are supposed to be played for years, not months.

 

Also, your idea of "fun" isn't fun for people who have played MMO's for a long time. We understand what it takes to make a game succeed because we've seen so many come and go. If you don't think busting your *** and then being rewarded for your time isn't fun....then I suggest stick with your console games.

 

Oh, and why do you keep saying " Oh this quote again...." If it's being quoted often then maybe there's something to it. Just saying "oh this again" isn't much of an argument.

[DarkDruidSS]

3. PvP - Player versus Player. Gear disparity is not allowed. Stats are either normalized or removed in order to eliminate gear as a factor. Normal limitations include a smaller ability bar (preventing you from having access to all your abilities), abilities having different modifiers from the PvE ability of the same name, and a heavy reliance on player skill (timing, tactics, strategy, etc.). Few examples exist in the RPG world (since RPGs tend to be very focused on gear these days). GW is one example.

 

Few examples of this exist period. Very few games are skill vs skill. You want skill vs skill play chess. RTS games are more about Skill vs Skill than any other game type.. because RTS games are closest to Chess. They are also in the less popular categories because there isn't any progression to them. Yes Starcraft is a hugely popular game... for it being 1 game. But compare the numbers of people that play Starcraft vs other games and then you can see that it is still a small portion of the whole.

[Silvaeris]

It is a inherent trait of MMORPG's that their PvP is more, or less, gear dependent. This comes from both the expectations of an MMORPG'er (where strive for better stats/levels/gear is the main purpose of the game for most) and the model that has been used by most of the developers up to today.

 

In almost every single MMORPG, the more resources you have and the more you have played, the more powerful is your character compared to others. Taking that away would drive most MMORPG players away, as if they want "true" PVP, they could always play Unreal Tournament, LoL, or CoD. The main problem is for the gear disparity not to eliminate any skill-dependency in fights - for example, by making the high tier sets too powerful or too different in power between one another. A higher tier set should be more powerful than a tier lower, but the stats should be optimized in such a way that you won't faceroll or one-shot every single other player below your gear level. At least that's my opinion on the subject.

[Darth_Philar]

Few examples of this exist period. Very few games are skill vs skill. You want skill vs skill play chess. RTS games are more about Skill vs Skill than any other game type.. because RTS games are closest to Chess. They are also in the less popular categories because there isn't any progression to them. Yes Starcraft is a hugely popular game... for it being 1 game. But compare the numbers of people that play Starcraft vs other games and then you can see that it is still a small portion of the whole.

 

I don't disagree with your assessment, I was merely point out that we don't actually have PvP in this game as actual PvP is not terribly popular. Most people like the gear crutch as it allows them to be rewarded for time spent instead of skill.

[fuzzDONTEVENTRIP]

It is a inherent trait of MMORPG's that their PvP is more, or less, gear dependent. This comes from both the expectations of an MMORPG'er (where strive for better stats/levels/gear is the main purpose of the game for most) and the model that has been used by most of the developers up to today.

 

In almost every single MMORPG, the more resources you have and the more you have played, the more powerful is your character compared to others. Taking that away would drive most MMORPG players away, as if they want "true" PVP, they could always play Unreal Tournament, LoL, or CoD. The main problem is for the gear disparity not to eliminate any skill-dependency in fights - for example, by making the high tier sets too powerful or too different in power between one another. A higher tier set should be more powerful than a tier lower, but the stats should be optimized in such a way that you won't faceroll or one-shot every single other player below your gear level. At least that's my opinion on the subject.

 

SOMEONE. WHO. GETS. IT!

 

-fuzz

[johanlofdahl]

I would just like to throw in my PoV on this subject.

 

While I do agree that gear disparity shouldn't be that much of a deciding factor I think Gear Progression is needed.

To all of you guys saying lets everyone have the same gear and now we have equal settings: That takes away alot of fun for me.

 

Let me clarify before people start screaming fair fight. One thing I enjoy alot about mmos is different gear setups, you can work for your own soft caps, prio stats over others etc and really try to make your character unique (especially in this game with mods, customs etc) although alot of people will choose to go cookie cutter specs I personly might prefer a heavy surge/expertise/power/whatever gear.

I really love the aspect of theocrafting my own needs for my character based setup (people I play consistently with) and try to tailor it to my needs.

 

Also the feeling for progression is what makes me play, why else would I subscribe to a game? Progression in my eyes on this model of game is based on gear. If you compare the games content PvE-wise vs PvP you can clearly see PvE is leading by a faaaaaar margin. Yet BW themselves said PvP attracted much more players then what they thought, this means they need a progression system for pvp. Aka rated, but part of rated is also setting up your team setups etc and itemization is a part of that.

[PhilCanuck]

Theres no challenge for fresh 50s to get full basttlemaster now legit takes 3days prob less now u get 140 comms for a win lmfao.

grind != challenge

[Khoraji]

I would like to see all gear removed frm PVP. Everyone spawn in balanced equivalent gear. Voila, skill game! you can have some nice cosmetics for Valor 75, enjoy.

 

not sure if you were aware...this is an RPG....

[Ocili]

Time invested should provide rewards. PVE provides a tier system for time spent. Why doesnt pvp ? OP is right.

 

I enjoy pvp and i want to be rewarded for it. I should have an advantage in pvp as you should in pve.

 

PvE gear system isn't about time spent, its about RNG. Doesn't matter if I can clear the content in three hours or 20 hours per week. Its rng. I have been doing HM/NMM Ops for over three months and have yet to get full Rakata due to rng.

 

Plus, PvE tier system respects those tiers. Fresh 50 don't go jumping into HM EC. They have to pay their dues, and get the gear upgrades first in the content that matches their gear (or get ran through higher content by an experienced team). Why should PvP require fresh 50 to jump straight in against BiS?

 

Just as someone else said above, in sports, the winners don't get a huge advantage. Race car drivers don't get faster cars, baseball players don't get special bats that make them hit harder/further, etc. Its all about skill and team work.

[salamanderx]

Lets separate the people that want an unfair advantage (gear based) with those who want a fair (skill based) fights and create separate war zone queues. LOL. Make everyone happy.