PloGreen Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 What ever the case may be here with this pvp, we have to look at reality. Why is almost ever single pvp problem we have here ALREADY been made and fixed in past mm0's. Thats 1 of the major problems is mmo companies do not talk with there counterparts. Because its a money issue. But anyways were here stuck with pvp problems that is spoiling this game. Bioware has put millions of dollars into the great spectacular pve side of the house that made this game that, pvp side had no or little interest to. So until bioware realizes and come to face that there is a end game and its pvp. We will be stuck with the same pvp issues with no fixes to it. Trouble is, some of these issues can be solved simply by people doing what everyone that is succesful in pvp is doing. Playing it alot, progressing and teaming up with like-minded people. If that is an issue (and it appears it is for some) other than fill the warzones with target dummies that dont fight back I dont know what people are expecting. Nothing will make crap people get better but themselves. But they never blame themselves they blame bioware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tic- Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 No... i think it was the below average/average PvP content that ruined it. Another game of sit on the node/kill the guy with the thing and get another pair of shoes.. yay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyhana Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 (edited) Your analogy fails because in every sports competition, there are numerous time sinks. It is called practice, time to memorize the plays, and so on. This is how players and teams gets really good. It is the same as MMO in a way. People have to spend time before they can be good or be competitive. I agree with your post but your analogy doesn't really fully apply. Usually the team that practices more can usually win, yes. But if one of the teams gets full protective equipment and the others don't, (ex. football) well that would be an awesome game to watch! but not a whole lot of fun(and probably painful) for the team with no gear. Edited April 19, 2012 by bennyhana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pourekos Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Just wondering if you guys think BW is trying to hard to please former WoW casuals with how easy it is to obtain BM gear and starter gear? I would say the opposite, that Blizzard and Bioware are ruining their pvp by trying to please their "hardcore" players who despite their "imba"-skills they still need a system that gives them better gear than the casuals that will in turn account for 10-20 % difference in performance so that they can say that casuals are bad and don't know how to play. If you, the "pro", are indeed a "pro" then compete with the casual on equal footing in terms of gear and see how you fare. At the end of the day your amazing skills, military-grade team co-ordination and in-depth and unbiased knowledge of all classes, specs and game mechanics should be more than enough to let you roll over the casuals ten times over, right? PS extra cookies for staying with your original class rather than FOTMing with every season, just like most of the "bad" casuals who have time only for 1 character and are mostly stuck with them regardless of the class balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcheprime Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 during vanilla you had to play a lot to get stuff with battle ground ,no matter your skill. since wow set arenas you didn't need to play a lot but well to get some stuff i was a casual player i was always decently geared ,cause i mixed BG/arena/pve (pve for weapons) plus blizzard did a bad thing,they always tried to balance classes but they never succeeded in,it means you played the right class you were imba. i don't regret the wow's pvp (i used to plau from 2005 to 2010) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doque Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Although real pvp-ers may not need gear progression, it is something that is in the game and is one of the main carrots. Good or bad, it's here. However, the problem is when we are facing each other and not just a pve encounter. Meeting pro/hardcore (or whatever we would like to call them) players with one tier better equipment might be fine. They should be able to kill you even in equal gear, but at least you have time to do some damage. 2 tiers and it's starting to get really frustrating and at 3 tiers only the truly dedicated or masochistic would return to the WZ. I see several posts from early BMs, saying it's now too easy to get the equipment they worked so hard at getting. What they should see is that they paid a premium to have it first, just like with new technology in the real world. You don't see many early buyers of cell phones complaining that you now can get a cell phone given to you. Without discounts and inflation, the gear gap would increase to the point where new players (or alts) cannot enter. Especially with the recent nerfs to comms when loosing. Remember that if you play more than your opponents you will get that shiny new gear before they do and the truly casual will still be at least one tier below you. Without discounts and inflation, you would need a more advanced league system for WZs where top league players are never paired with the lower tier ones. However, with the current server populations that is impossible. My server only has one or two WZs running and before lunch it is impossible to get into a WZ. Sorry if it got a little longer than I expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbonated Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Did former Wow casuals ruin PVP/SWTOR? No. Wows system was start a new arena season move the gear a tier down, so last seasons pvp gear became for honor. Seasons changed every 6 months or longer and came with content. Biowares system did the same thing, moved the highest tier down got rid of 2 of the tiers. Added one you could purchase with credits, like wow you can buy a crafted set for pvp and like wow they had farm a rank originally to get the gear. thats how I see it, was it the right thing to do? I think so. PVE gear was strong with some classes in pvp so they had to do something in terms of pvp progression. Me personally I dont like joining premades and rolling pugs I go in for challenge and fun not grinding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosmartin Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 In my opionion, and this might not please most of the community, there should be only the recruit gear. This recruit gear should be filled with modeables and the BM and WH gear should be oranges with open slots, also you should be able to buy mods differents (not better) than the ones in the recruit gear if you think other stats might suit you better. In this way everyone will compete in the same gear conditions so it will be mostly your skill what will make the difference and not your stats. If you want to show how dedicated you are then you can wear the BM or WH armor looks and show your valor title, but when it comes to pvp fights you will have to show your real skill and not just that you are better geared than the rest. I have to say that in pvp I miss a bit guild wars, where you could start a pvp character with maximun level and the same gear as anyone, and the progress was about to get the titles, new gear looks and some new skills and mods (if you have not unlocked them before) and mostly it was about to be a better player, that was one of the most competitive pvp games I have played. I like the improves about gear look that we get in 1.2 but we still need to go all the way to get the best mods before you can compete at the highes level, what for casuals player can be quiet a problem. I don´t really know why some players complain that much when the gear of the last patch becomes available for every player, are they so afraid to discover that they owned many of the matches just because of the gear? Well they still can get the WH set as soon as posible to have that advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djluxi Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 (edited) Your analogy fails because in every sports competition, there are numerous time sinks. It is called practice, time to memorize the plays, and so on. This is how players and teams gets really good. It is the same as MMO in a way. People have to spend time before they can be good or be competitive. My analogy still stands u just made it stronger. Those who practice will get rewarded by practice itself. i m not saying there should be no rewards and no progression ... the reward should be more of a status symbol then real advantage... like yellow shirt in cycling or golden cup or golden medal that u can shove in every ones face. Of course u want everyone to see how awesome u are and there is nothing wrong with that. And ppl are still gonna have carrots to grind just those carrots shouldnt give any stat increase... ofc imo. But the system most games now have is actually when u think about it not that different from one that has an item shop. Gear is not tied to skill but more to time spent... just like in a gift shop game. The difference is here time spent ingame counts while the other prefers time spent making real money so u can buy gear. But at the end of the day in both cases its skill not gear that should matter in pvp. i should be able to kick ur behind the moment i hit ur level if i m better then you... you can look better for playing more but if your skills are inferior u deserve to lose... again my opinion only. Well i guess we r just gonna have to wait for a game that promises just that and we will see then who preffers to pvp and who just wants to roflstomp undergeared players and even if that means 2 months of constant death for himself 1st... Edited April 19, 2012 by djluxi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantum Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Just wondering if you guys think BW is trying to hard to please former WoW casuals with how easy it is to obtain BM gear and starter gear? No. It has nothing with doing anything to please anyone. It's all about the attitudes of the PvPer's in the community. Here's a little light reading that sums my thoughts up on this. And a Select Quote. Just this, the same is starting to happen to the PvP Community, it is getting divided between the vocal minority that want challenging PvP, where skill outweighs equipment, and the vocal majority, that want to whine and complain when every advantage they can eek out of a template, piece of gear, or combination of buffs, is threatened. These people are not the real PvPer's they are Carebears Cousins, they are a little bit wilder than the Carebears we all know and love, but they want their savannah to be a safe place for them and only them and to be able to circumvent the concept of Survival of the Fittest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xsorus Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 SWTOR PVP is being killed by the same developers who killed Warhammer Online. Stop putting the blame anywhere else. That's where it belongs. not true, Most of the developers of Warhammer Online were let go years ago, and moved onto other games (like Rift for example) Bioware is 100% in charge of their **** ups, and giving them the benefit of the doubt is moronic. They're making the bloody exact same mistakes Blizzard did with WoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nezyrworks Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 (edited) Played WoW for 5 years (up to the Lich King expansion). Played every single class wow offered. I was playing both arenas (up to season 4 when i ended with full gear) and Endgame Raid concent Sunwell Isle. Yes... im not a 14 year old - more like a 30. This game feels to me nothing but a clone of Vanilla WOW in PVP (post battlemaster set changes, which made warrior imba). Same mechanisms, same playstyle - u just need to have a comparison to wow characters. It took me 5 minutes to figure out what to do or how to play. Which is better? Vanilla Wow had fantastic and very ballanced and enjoyable endgame PVE content with many dungeons and raids (before tier 3 and pre TBC talent changes). Battlegrounds aded much into it. Tier 0.5 was better for some classes and particular builds than tier 2. But the lack of dedicated pvp gear was fantastic, because at the begining it was very simple and enjoyable alike. You were wearing pve gear and having fun (some classes had more than the others but thats normal for blizzard). Here. If you aren't careful - puff - you are gone with the wind. Do i like it? Well i must say im not wearing recruit gear and im playing premades only. the gear gap between is just hilarious. It's like fightng 2h enhancement shaman who can 1 shot you (yes, again i was playing shaman for most of my 5 years, and no those 1 hits were not lucky as people think, they were calculated - post TBC i was as ehnacement the best pve dps in our guild) if you are fully dedicated tank with top arena gear and HOT (healing over time) on you. I know - many informations. To sumarize - BW is not learning blizzard lessons quick enough, and is following the same blind pathway with twisted gear progression grind that eventualy left me no choice but to sell my wow accounts. And i think this might soon happend to my swtor accounts. Also, best pvp'ers are not recognized by their gear > this is a sign of a grinder. When you play FPS you don't have gear, and guess what? Skills, and teamplay are your atributes. Edited April 19, 2012 by Nezyrworks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetflair Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Do you think that everyone in the world has the time to sit through a grindfest in order to get any decent gear? The new gear has attached costs to it, its very accessible but it's not free plus there's still the very expensive war hero set to get. Also, how does does making gear more accessible to casuals ruin the game? This has to be one of the most nonsensical posts I have ever read. Its same for everyone. I mean nobody has shortcut for this. Yes there can be players with no life who grind 16h a day. But how do you propose to change this? Its still same situation even if time to get gear would be halved. Those with lot of time in their hands would just get earlier the same gear and wipe floor with those who don't anyway. Situation would still be same. MMO's have time based subscription fees. They are supposed to eat your time. Why else would you play few few months? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosDogg Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 (edited) Its same for everyone. I mean nobody has shortcut for this. Yes there can be players with no life who grind 16h a day. But how do you propose to change this? Its still same situation even if time to get gear would be halved. Those with lot of time in their hands would just get earlier the same gear and wipe floor with those who don't anyway. Situation would still be same. MMO's have time based subscription fees. They are supposed to eat your time. Why else would you play few few months? They've already changed it. It would be even better if there were ranked warzones because all you have to aim for is make the standard gear very accessible and if you are high rated, you get the newer gear faster while the other people get the gear at a slower pace. The item rating between bm and wh isn't even that high. What they have now is leagues ahead of what they had before with the casino bag system but perhaps the time sink for war hero is too high (only time will tell). Edit: I should clarify that although this gives gear gap again (high rated vs low rated), it is more or less necessary to please as many people as shown on these forums, not everyone likes having their "accomplishments diminished by having bads in the same gear as me". Edited April 19, 2012 by ChaosDogg clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jalez Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 (edited) ^^ This If there was no gear progression, I for one would have sticked with Quake 3 Arena and/or Counterstrike. There is no gear in there, just skill and brains. People should understand the difference between a FPS and a MMO I have to lol at this, Dark Age of Camelot which arguably has the best PVP of any MMORPG ever made has NO gear progression. In DAoC yes gear matters, but its easy to get templated max stats and resists through crafters and Pve gear. You dont have to grind for gear, you just go out and do the "realm rank grind" which means in DAoC PvP you "progress" your character by gaining realm rank and earning cool new abilities and spells etc... This makes DAoC highly competitive, to the point of its players being called "hardcore PvP'rs", since 85% of any group/guild you fight in DAoC will have maxed stats and resists, just like your guild does.....which means the PvP fights in DAoC rely on SKILL and SKILL alone to win fights Gear progression is for PVE, get it outta MMo PVP Edited April 19, 2012 by Jalez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiyoma Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I'll never figure out why people dont want a pvp stat. You clearly have never been hit by a Hand of Rag wielding Shaman in vanilla WoW - or even just a warrior running around with Dark Edge of Insanity. While I can not say that expertise is completely functional, the presence of a pvp stat in an MMO that isn't entirely pvp dedicated is pretty essential. personal opinion though, we're all entitled, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iDubstep Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Reducing the time it takes to get geared for PvP is a step in the right direction for this game. If you think PvP is ruined because the skill to gear ratio involved in competition is being changed go play some grindfest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzone Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 not true, Most of the developers of Warhammer Online were let go years ago, and moved onto other games (like Rift for example) Actually, a lot of the Mythic dev team moved to SWTOR development when Mythic merged. The principles, which really count, Gabe Amatangelo, from Mythic, is lead game designer at Bioware, and speculation is that he is in charge of the direction and scope of PvP in SWTOR. We have no idea how many Mythic devs actually work(ed) on SWTOR, but we do know that a bunch did. The key point is that it doesn't matter if the entire dev team was or was not from Mythic, it's the leadership that steers the game and Gabe is in leadership. Your statement appears to be a weak attempt to muddle the truth Xsorus. Now, unless you can back it up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishidoblade Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 (edited) Getting gear means a hell of alot less in this game then in every other MMO i have played. They made getting everything in this game so stupid and easy the only real gratification i get is from dominating in PVP (other teams that are top notch) or end game content which is still cutting edge (which lets face it isn't that hard either, even on LOLheroic) I remember back in the day for many MMOs there was a...gap.. if you will... between the extreme hardcore PVP/PVE'rs and the rest of the "casuals" that didn't/couldn't manage to do end game content and pvp because it involved skill. You saw someone in some amazing looking gear and thought... wow.. i wonder what he did to get that. Then you would look up the boss fight on youtube or whatever... and realize how hard they worked to get that rather unique looking piece of gear.. It was not handed to them after 2 days.. They didn't just hand out gear like BioWare does. It actually meant something. Getting gear from this game means NOTHING because it takes no skill and no real time to get. Never did i think, "its so unfair they have that sweet looking gear and i have ...this..." People now days feel entitled to get exactly what they want without having the skill/know how/ability to obtain them. They want it fast, if it takes to long they bi%ch and moan and threaten to unsubscribe... It use to take months of hard work to get full gear sets, and only the top 5-10% of the server who worked their asses off would be able to get that gear... and you know what? People accepted it. It made playing the game more enjoyable because you actually had to work your *** off to get the best items. (BTW grinding WZs is also a joke, and the gear we get for it is way to easy to get) The company set a standard and even though not everyone could get the gear THEY still played... BioWare, like many other game company''s now cater to the casual baddy's/scrubs(80-90% of the total pop) because the "vanguard" or elite's only make up 5-10% of the population. It honestly nearly ruins the game, as most of us... casual or not can clearly see. Let me put it this way... anyone who has had to work their *** off for weeks/months to get a legendary /epic quest /class quest item knows how amazing it feels when you finally get that item you have worked SO hard to get. Basically what BioWare does is hand out said items to the masses to appease what is a majority of the population. This watered down game basically hands out gear for little to no effort. There is NO Uniqueness anymore. Everyone looks exactly the same because if everyone didn't look EXACTLY the same someone might bi%ch about it. Everything is recolored and generic. The artists have let us all down with the crappy recolored gear, and BioWare has let us down for giving away all gear for free(more or less) As always, this rant is just my opinion. BioWare I'm sorry I / WE expected so much more from you, I don't know what we was thinking. Leading up to this game everyone was excited because we thought you would be different. Your just like every other gaming company out now - your game is the FOTM because its new, and because SW is awesome and has a following. When something better comes out (which wont be very hard, unless you make some changes) there will be a mass exodus, if there hasn't been one by then anyways. I like this genre of MMO, and I honestly hope eventually you figure stuff out because i want to continue to play this game, but right now your game is terribly underwhelming to a point its almost asinine. /end rant ... Edited April 19, 2012 by Bishidoblade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodtau Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Some of us want to play a GAME, not spend our time and hard earned money grinding for hours on end to do 100 extra damage. It's a GOOD THING they made things easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicholasTylerD Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Some of us want to play a GAME, not spend our time and hard earned money grinding for hours on end to do 100 extra damage. It's a GOOD THING they made things easier. Heh...but without grinding the 'hardcore' can't have the gear crutch they need in order to crush casuals and proclaim their eliteness...LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishidoblade Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Some of us want to play a GAME, not spend our time and hard earned money grinding for hours on end to do 100 extra damage. It's a GOOD THING they made things easier. In your opinion. Also no one said anything about grinding for hours, but rather the overall difficulty in getting gear. If you dont want to put int he time, why should you have the best gear also? Explain your logic, i'm honestly interested. What it sounds like to me is... You don't feel like playing as much as others might like playing - but you feel that you should have the exact same thing the people who work harder, and maybe put in more time.. and are over all better? So you want hand outs? You want to not have to work hard, but you want all the gear? My point really is there is no option for people who do play hardcore in PVP or PVE to get a leg up for their hard work. You can fall back on the "this is a game" excuse all you want to make yourself feel better about the situation, but i don't go into my firm and ask for a raise and at the same time ask them to cut half my workload expecting to get what everyone else does who puts in more time, while i only work half the time... because you quantifying it as a game doesn't mean its not important to other people who take it maybe more serious then yourself. You are the type of person who, in my opinion... takes away from the game because you feel your entitled to everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodtau Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 (edited) In your opinion. Also no one said anything about grinding for hours, but rather the overall difficulty in getting gear. If you dont want to put int he time, why should you have the best gear also? Explain your logic, i'm honestly interested. What it sounds like to me is... You don't feel like playing as much as others might like playing - but you feel that you should have the exact same thing the people who work harder, and maybe put in more time.. and are over all better? So you want hand outs? You want to not have to work hard, but you want all the gear? My point really is there is no option for people who do play hardcore in PVP or PVE to get a leg up for their hard work. You can fall back on the "this is a game" excuse all you want to make yourself feel better about the situation, but i don't go into my firm and ask for a raise and at the same time ask them to cut half my workload expecting to get what everyone else does who puts in more time, while i only work half the time... because you quantifying it as a game doesn't mean its not important to other people who take it maybe more serious then yourself. You are the type of person who, in my opinion... takes away from the game because you feel your entitled to everything. I pay as much as everyone else, so YES, i am entitled to the same game play experience as them. Working/school/not a lot of free time should NOT be a factor for someone to get less. SO yes, I pay my money, I expect to get my monies worth. Also "work hard". Last time I checked this was an entertainment game and NOT a second job. There should be no "work" involved in the game. It's in fact people like YOU who are ruining these types of games. WIth your "**** I NEEDZ GEARZ TO BE GOODZ" and other whine when you don't get your slight advantage. Edited April 19, 2012 by Bloodtau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seyyah Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 incompetent developer team killed the PvP... do not try to put the blame on others. i am not a developer but i sure am amazed by the mistakes these guys are keep on making one after another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishidoblade Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Heh...but without grinding the 'hardcore' can't have the gear crutch they need in order to crush casuals and proclaim their eliteness...LOL! Skill > gear. Sorry if your new to MMO's and don't understand the basics. The ability to get better gear for being more skilled is wrong? Being more coordinated and working hard to find strats that work and being able to kill something others cant because they haven't worked as hard or put in the time is wrong? The hardcore will still roll your face with lesser gear bra-h. Also at no point was i coming from an elitist standpoint. I was pointing out the fact that there is no upside to being better, or working harder. Just because you choose to not play as long or as hard doesn't mean those of us who do should not be able to benefit. Again, thats just my opinion... what do i know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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