Why are we still in the "Kill 10 rats" era of MMOs?

[Kaphik]

Why does targeting a large audience have anything to do with it?

Because you have a large audience you cant be innovative or try new game mechanics?

 

A large audience isn't going to want innovation. They are going to want to be assured that if they spend their money they will enjoy what they are getting. Especially with the economy the way it is these days. Most people don't want new and exciting, they want familiarity and safety. I cannot see how you don't understand that. I'm not saying it's right, and I'm not saying it is the best way to develop new games and gamers, but it's the way things are these days. There is too much risk in spending money to try something unproven, unlike during the big dotcom bubble when funding was not an issue.

[Asavar]

*cough* so anyway to continue..

 

Why do we still have levels? UO and SWG(pre update), Eve to name a few proved that this wasn't needed.

Many MANY roleplaying games operate completely separate from levels. Popular ones even such as World of Darkness, Warhammer....

 

And when we bring up levels, and the grind of endgame, WHY oh god WHY does ever MMO have to be a giant epeen gear grind wankfest at endgame? Seriously? Why is it about the gear and not the player skill or strategy?

 

TBC..

 

This is not the game you're looking for.

[Cerion]

Why does targeting a large audience have anything to do with it?

Because you have a large audience you cant be innovative or try new game mechanics?

 

Well, in short, no you cannot innovate.

 

Because BW was spending 200 million, they needed a large audience to make a profit. Now it's a little chicken and egg thing here. I'm sure they decided that they wanted a huge audience, and realized they needed to spend a lot of money to get that audience.

 

Innovation and new mechanics carries huge risk. Investors aren't going to pony up 200 mil on an untried, untested, unproved system that carries huge risk. It's that simple.

[Oddzball]

Well, in short, no you cannot innovate.

 

Because BW was spending 200 million, they needed a large audience to make a profit. Now it's a little chicken and egg thing here. I'm sure they decided that they wanted a huge audience, and realized they needed to spend a lot of money to get that audience.

 

Innovation and new mechanics carries huge risk. Investors aren't going to pony up 200 mil on an untried, untested, unproved system that carries huge risk. It's that simple.

 

Fair enough, I kinda figured BioWare had the stones to do it anyway, investors be damned.

[doctor_atomic]

Fair enough, I kinda figured BioWare had the stones to do it anyway, investors be damned.

 

When you grow up you will come to realize that is not practical, or perhaps you have 200 million to blow because of the size of your stones? You really should put your money where your mouth is.

[Oddzball]

When you grow up you will come to realize that is not practical, or perhaps you have 200 million to blow because of the size of your stones? You really should put your money where your mouth is.

 

Haha, I am grown up, probably older then half the folks on this forum. I dont see why you feel the need to bring personal life in to this, but let me tell you.

 

I tell my Project Manager NO and that what he just suggested was a stupid idea all the time. (I work in business software, not games however)

 

I've walked off projects where I felt the management was doing bad things or taking a project in a poor direction all the time.

 

I have developed personal software and when requested to change it so its more familiar with "competitor" software I straight out refuse. I prefer features and innovation over graphics and flashy presentation.

[LX_Theo]

Want something better? Expect 1/10 the content.

[lord_zod]

When they developed The Old Republic they took the idea of OLD too literally. That's why we are still playing MMO conventions that existed years ago.

[Kaphik]

Haha, I am grown up, probably older then half the folks on this forum. I dont see why you feel the need to bring personal life in to this, but let me tell you.

 

I tell my Project Manager NO and that what he just suggested was a stupid idea all the time. (I work in business software, not games however)

 

I've walked off projects where I felt the management was doing bad things or taking a project in a poor direction all the time.

 

I have developed personal software and when requested to change it so its more familiar with "competitor" software I straight out refuse. I prefer features and innovation over graphics and flashy presentation.

 

While I applaud your integrity, I cannot believe that you work for a large company that invests hundreds of millions of dollars in software development. That is unless you are a Bill Gates/Steve Jobs type of person.

[Socialist]

MMOs? Or SWTOR specifically as well. Same crap(for the most part) from EQ days. Go kill some rats. Go collect some weeds.

 

My kind of game.

[Goatfishtoo]

Personally, I think the only thing that makes mmo's these days worth playing is playing with my friends. Gives us something to talk about, do together, and work towards a common goal. Needless to say, if my friends quit I'm probably going with them. Also, once Diablo 3 comes out I doubt I'll still be playing this game.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Oddzball]

While I applaud your integrity, I cannot believe that you work for a large company that invests hundreds of millions of dollars in software development. That is unless you are a Bill Gates/Steve Jobs type of person.

 

I work for SAIC. Science Applications Internation Corp.

 

Fortune 500 company, 2.4 billion in profit last fiscal quarter. We are more successful then EA hehe.... then again business software always is.

[Oddzball]

My kind of game.

 

Dude you made me spit soda on my screen. ROFL.

[Cerion]

Fair enough, I kinda figured BioWare had the stones to do it anyway, investors be damned.

 

You're typically only going to get this sort of innovation with smaller or newer companies. People think Apple is innovative, but that's really a marketing meme that Apple perpetuates. What Apple does is take existing ideas in the market place and perfects them (to the degree they can be perfected).

 

If you want true innovation, you have to look to things like Minecraft, or Guitar Hero. When Guitar Hero first came out, their budget was so small, they couldn't afford the actual musicians to perform the songs...they had to use cover bands. Of course when that innovation proved to be ridiculously popular, the actual musicians couldn't sign on fast enough, lol.

 

But look at Guitar Hero on the face of it: I'm going to create a game that requires you to buy expensive controllers and require you to learn an entirely new physical skill set (not just regular controller skills). At first or even second glance, does that even sound like a good investment strategy from a development standpoint? Possibly, but I think by and large no. In hindsight we can see it WAS successful...but it's quite shocking.

[ZORG]

*cough* so anyway to continue..

 

Why do we still have levels? UO and SWG(pre update), Eve to name a few proved that this wasn't needed.

Many MANY roleplaying games operate completely separate from levels. Popular ones even such as World of Darkness, Warhammer....

 

And when we bring up levels, and the grind of endgame, WHY oh god WHY does ever MMO have to be a giant epeen gear grind wankfest at endgame? Seriously? Why is it about the gear and not the player skill or strategy?

 

TBC..

 

Yes but they had xp grinds to get abilities. So swtor just also has levels. Its a added guide for newbs to MMOs so they can gage if they are ready for certain content...

[Oddzball]

Yes but they had xp grinds to get abilities. So swtor just also has levels. Its a added guide for newbs to MMOs so they can gage if they are ready for certain content...

 

Maybe going in and getting destroyed should be your gauge of how ready you are? Seems more fun to me.

[Aram_Darksun]

There are other puzzle quests like the area one in Balmorra where you have to shunt power to the weapon platform. Would have been really interesting if I hadn't had to solve it 3 times because it never gave me an obvious quest update.

 

The dialogue choices give you more choice in quests for example, do I let this guy go, kill him, give him a reach around or whatever.

 

I think ToR actually does a decent job in quest variety. It could certainly be better but every other MMO I have played is certainly no better than ToR and generally worse. (Champions Online, EQ2, WAR, Eve).

 

As was brought up at the start of the thread nearly every quest in every MMO can be boiled down to such formulaic fundamentals.

 

The massive budget is also a double edged sword, even taking into account that is has equally massive costs (which doesnt mean there is 'spare' money to do innovative things), but there is also that they really needed to play it safe to guarentee a return on that massive budget.

 

I think they did play it a little too safe in general however because they did they are now in a position to go further.

[Lt_Latency]

Because AAA FPS games you are done the single player in like 20 hours.

 

MMO can do it as well, If you want to be max level by the end of day 1 and finshed all content.

 

 

Levels are to show you journey from level 1 scrub starting his jounreny to epic hero you can save the galaxy

Edited April 19, 2012 by Lt_Latency

[Pathlight-]

Lol. To all the people saying "MMOS have to follow this formula, there is no way to do anything different than those basic fetch quests", you have a limited imagination and are satisfied with mediocrity, which is fine, but don't try to argue that real alternatives are not possible.

 

I'll simply quote a great post I came across in another discussion here :

 

 

"Ask yourself; if I could be doing anything else in this game instead of this daily quest for the twentieth time, what would it be?

 

World PvP? Raiding capital cities? Reclaiming planets for the glory of your faction? Dynamic flashpoints? (i.e. unscripted). Space-based PvP? Mini games? (Pazaak anyone?). Invasions? Creating your own story content? etc etc etc."

 

Instead of resorting to meaningless quests in order to disguise leveling, this AAA MMO with such a strong and epic IP could have created a truly dynamic world shaped by players' actions (war,politics..). Instead we get instanced kill/fetch quests which produce no tangible effect on the game world with the sole goal of landing you xp/cash. MMOs have room to grow and I sure hope a company is courageous enough to get out of the beaten path.

 

This is my first MMO. When I heard of the genre, I expected a true virtual world with impactful social interactions, dynamic warfare whose outcome would depend on the strength and guile of the warring factions.

 

Instead I got a glorified SP game. Fun, but terribly underwhelming.

[Lt_Latency]

Lol. To all the people saying "MMOS have to follow this formula, there is no way to do anything different than those basic fetch quests", you have a limited imagination and are satisfied with mediocrity, which is fine, but don't try to argue that real alternatives are not possible.

 

I'll simply quote a great post I came across in another discussion here :

 

 

"Ask yourself; if I could be doing anything else in this game instead of this daily quest for the twentieth time, what would it be?

 

World PvP? Raiding capital cities? Reclaiming planets for the glory of your faction? Dynamic flashpoints? (i.e. unscripted). Space-based PvP? Mini games? (Pazaak anyone?). Invasions? Creating your own story content? etc etc etc."

 

Instead of resorting to meaningless quests in order to disguise leveling, this AAA MMO with such a strong and epic IP could have created a truly dynamic world shaped by players' actions (war,politics..). Instead we get instanced kill/fetch quests which produce no tangible effect on the game world with the sole goal of landing you xp/cash. MMOs have room to grow and I sure hope a company is courageous enough to get out of the beaten path.

 

This is my first MMO. When I heard of the genre, I expected a true virtual world with impactful social interactions, dynamic warfare whose outcome would depend on the strength and guile of the warring factions.

 

Instead I got a glorified SP game. Fun, but terribly underwhelming.

 

Yes, they could do more, But they already spend 150+ million dollars and 6 years creating this. You can do anything if you have ulmited time and money, but no one does.

 

 

You can't effect the game world in MMOs, because EVERYONE has to be able to do it. If you change the world world there is nothing to do for the next guy

Edited April 19, 2012 by Lt_Latency

[Fatespuppet]

It really does sound like you're just tired of RPGs in general. At their heart they are all very simple concepts with various amounts of fancy dressings.

 

- Lord of the Rings(the books) is basically a very long milk run delivery quest.

- KOTOR was a fancy kill random NPC quest

- Elder Scrolls(all) were a series of collect X quests

- Fallout 1+2 were collect X and defeat NPC

- Fallout 3 was a series of collect X quests followed by milk runs

 

I haven't played any of the ME game, but I bet they are no different. When you boil it down, life is nothing more than the same sorts of 'quests' all mixed together.

 

The only thing RPGs are missing are the consequences. I would have loved to see BW add consequences in some fashion. There are many obvious branch points in the class stories that could have provided lasting consequences to a character's story. One of the best examples is with Jaxo late in the trooper story. I won't spoil it, but the choices you make could have really made each trooper unique by level 50. Instead, no matter what you choose the result is ultimately the same and quickly forgotten.

 

The problem with why BW couldn't do this is easy to see simply by looking at the Advanced Class decision. People are constantly complaining about that choice being permenant(sp?). Imagine if every big choice had a lasting effect on your character.

 

I feel for your desire to see more innovation. SWTOR simply isn't going to provide much of it. If you need innovation and consequences, then play pen and paper RPGs like I do.

[Oddzball]

Lol. To all the people saying "MMOS have to follow this formula, there is no way to do anything different than those basic fetch quests", you have a limited imagination and are satisfied with mediocrity, which is fine, but don't try to argue that real alternatives are not possible.

 

I'll simply quote a great post I came across in another discussion here :

 

 

"Ask yourself; if I could be doing anything else in this game instead of this daily quest for the twentieth time, what would it be?

 

World PvP? Raiding capital cities? Reclaiming planets for the glory of your faction? Dynamic flashpoints? (i.e. unscripted). Space-based PvP? Mini games? (Pazaak anyone?). Invasions? Creating your own story content? etc etc etc."

 

Instead of resorting to meaningless quests in order to disguise leveling, this AAA MMO with such a strong and epic IP could have created a truly dynamic world shaped by players' actions (war,politics..). Instead we get instanced kill/fetch quests which produce no tangible effect on the game world with the sole goal of landing you xp/cash. MMOs have room to grow and I sure hope a company is courageous enough to get out of the beaten path.

 

This is my first MMO. When I heard of the genre, I expected a true virtual world with impactful social interactions, dynamic warfare whose outcome would depend on the strength and guile of the warring factions.

 

Instead I got a glorified SP game. Fun, but terribly underwhelming.

 

The ppl who cant come up with new and innovative quest ideas have probably never had to DM a game of WoD or DnD or Warhammer.

[Lt_Latency]

The ppl who cant come up with new and innovative quest ideas have probably never had to DM a game of WoD or DnD or Warhammer.

 

And you have probably never had to code them. Coming up with awesome ideas is easy. Paying for them and coding them is hard part.

[LrdScorpio]

Its really like people think we have limitless technology and capabilities...

 

Like seriously, why isn't my living room a futuristic virtual reality play area yet. You would think by now...

[Bluerodian]

We are still there because all objectives that make sense can be boiled down to:

 

Collect something

Kill something.

Escort someone.

 

They can be masked well, sure, but that's all *anything* boiled down to, if you look deep enough.

 

If you would like to suggest some alternatives, go ahead. Willing to bet I'll be able to reduce them to kill/collect/escort!

 

Defend convoy X (Riding on the convoy to pick off attackers)

Solve a logic puzzle put in front of you by a mad AI.

Navigate a maze and avoid traps.

Stealth mission to avoid detection (By Line of Sight, not in-game WoW-like steath system).

Assisination (see above stealth mission). Bonus is to get the target WITHOUT killing anyone else.

Tests of patience.

 

There's a few more they could choose from. A few of them CAN be boiled down to your three, but they have significant alterations to them to make them more interesting.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Bluerodian