Why are we still in the "Kill 10 rats" era of MMOs?

[RSLeMire]

I think you just might not enjoy MMOs...

[Arkerus]

We may still be in that "era" but is a shadow of its former self.

 

In FFXI you had no other choice. It was maddening. It wasn't even fun. Ugh.

 

At least in SWTOR the quests have meaning and you can run multiple stories.

[Tewnam]

I'm sorry to say that's just wrong. nothing useful can be done with a T1 frigate, except a Goon style suicide gank. 80% of high sec PvP is cargo ganks with battlecruiser or battleship where you need high skills to pull it off before getting Concorded. Missions in Eve are a repetitive snorefest. You need 6 months to a year of focused training minimum to acceptable in any kind of alliance warfare.

 

Actually, 80% of high-sec PvP is RvB, which is very active small-gang and fleet PvP. Most of everything they use is T1 frigates. Go look it up.

 

Not to mention tackling will almost always be done in a T1, and you can get a T2 scanner pilot very quickly afterward if you want to go down that path, or work on more weapon skills and move into cruisers. The problem with new players and EVE is that the ones who complain are the people that want to be told what to do and how to do it, rather than being given the opportunity to do whatever they can.

[Cyjax]

OP:

 

This article at cracked.com pretty much sums up modern theme park mmo design.

 

Article Title: 5 Creepy Ways Video Games Are Trying to Get You Addicted | Cracked.com 9

 

http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted.html

 

I miss the golden years of MMO's when players actually faced risks when leaving the safety of town. The time before item insurance, endless gear grinds, simon says PvE encounters, instanced battlegrounds, and various push lever then receive food pellet over time mechanics. MMO's have largely lost their fun factor due to the expanded EQ/WOW clone design models.

 

It is 2012 I would expect an MMO to feature:

-player housing / design

-player built cities with full featured siege mechanics for PVP & RP-PVP serverrs

-lasting consequences and player / community driven politics

-a completely player driven economy with player crafted gear being the only option for gearing up

-little to no instancing

 

I could name at least a dozen other game design elements missing in today's modern MMO's but this post is already turning into a TLDR. Bioware really nailed the story side of character progression but leaves many of us vet gamers wanting features many game companies don't have the balls to implement.

 

-Cy

Edited April 19, 2012 by Cyjax

[Crimson_Spider]

I'm guessing it's because we are still in the era where you are expected to carry a gun and kill things in an FPS, gather resources, investigate upgrades and obliterate the opposing army in an RTS and look for the guy with the beanie and stripped shirt in "Where's Waldo?"

 

It's just the way they are...

[NVZIM]

We are still there because all objectives that make sense can be boiled down to:

 

Collect something

Kill something.

Escort someone.

 

They can be masked well, sure, but that's all *anything* boiled down to, if you look deep enough.

 

If you would like to suggest some alternatives, go ahead. Willing to bet I'll be able to reduce them to kill/collect/escort!

 

Don't forget:

 

FedEx Quests

Magic Wand quests (Use item A on NPC B)

Vehicle Quests

 

That list of six about sums up the RPG experience. Oh, and OP the question I really think you are asking is "Why haven't we progressed past ability button MMO's to a more action or skill based system?"

 

The answer is we have, just no one has done it well enough to take a large market share. I do think someone will eventually pull it off and I think you're more likely to see a FPS MMO than a Skyrim type MMO be hugely successful. Mainly because if done well they may be able to pull in the CoD/BF crowd. I'd speculate it would need to be cross platform as well (Console and PC).

 

You will still see "Kill x of something or other" quests in those games. There's only so many ways to dress up a NPC asking a player to do something.

 

I added three more at the end.

 

Collection Quests

Kill Quests

Escort Quests

FedEx Quests

Magic Wand Quests (Use item A on NPC B)

Vehicle Quests

Puzzle Quests (solve X puzzle to gain Y access)

Riddle Quests (answer a riddle and be rewarded or punished)

Survival Quests (stay alive for the duration of the timer)

 

There are quests that require you to watch a cut-scene, then report your findings to a third-party. I'm not sure what category that would fall under. Investigation, perhaps?

Edited April 19, 2012 by NVZIM

[zeekaran]

Read the first page, but that's all.

 

MMOs are probably the slowest to evolve because they have to please so many people who literally have nothing to do but whine all day. MMOs are more financially based than any other genre. A normal 60 hour game needs to 1: hold your attention for 60 hours and 2: cost about $60. MMOs want you to play for 3000 hours and make you pay $60 + $15/mo.

 

MMOs can't handle dynamic questing because they have to put up with people on the lowest level high-speed internet and computers from six years ago. To alienate these people would mean to lose probably a quarter of their profit. It would also cost a lot more to develop. Bioware is doing something innovative right now by having a story-driven MMO based on well-established IP. SWTOR has done what it set out to do: deliver a quality story in an MMORPG for Star Wars fans.

 

When we all have 1GB/s internet and 16GB of RAM and i9 processors, when we ALL do, we'll be able to handle dynamics on games as big as MMOs. In twenty years we'll likely have what the OP was asking for. We'll also need people to WANT it. WOW is currently ruining the MMO industry, and we can only blame the people giving them money. I can't say whether or not that applies to SWTOR as well.

 

Words from a game designer currently ending his third year in college.

[Cyjax]

Read the first page, but that's all.

 

MMOs are probably the slowest to evolve because they have to please so many people who literally have nothing to do but whine all day. MMOs are more financially based than any other genre. A normal 60 hour game needs to 1: hold your attention for 60 hours and 2: cost about $60. MMOs want you to play for 3000 hours and make you pay $60 + $15/mo.

 

MMOs can't handle dynamic questing because they have to put up with people on the lowest level high-speed internet and computers from six years ago. To alienate these people would mean to lose probably a quarter of their profit. It would also cost a lot more to develop. Bioware is doing something innovative right now by having a story-driven MMO based on well-established IP. SWTOR has done what it set out to do: deliver a quality story in an MMORPG for Star Wars fans.

 

When we all have 1GB/s internet and 16GB of RAM and i9 processors, when we ALL do, we'll be able to handle dynamics on games as big as MMOs. In twenty years we'll likely have what the OP was asking for. We'll also need people to WANT it. WOW is currently ruining the MMO industry, and we can only blame the people giving them money. I can't say whether or not that applies to SWTOR as well.

 

Words from a game designer currently ending his third year in college.

 

Clearly you never played Ultima Online before trammel, Shadowbane, Darkfall, AC, DAOC... Hardware is more than capable of handling the features I mentioned in my previous post. I would also argue that most folks playing today's MMO's have a broadband connection otherwise it would take them weeks to patch their clients.

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[Starglide]

We are still there because all objectives that make sense can be boiled down to:

 

Collect something

Kill something.

Escort someone.

 

They can be masked well, sure, but that's all *anything* boiled down to, if you look deep enough.

 

If you would like to suggest some alternatives, go ahead. Willing to bet I'll be able to reduce them to kill/collect/escort!

 

In this game they do. Actually, you can take out escort. The escort quests failed miserably in beta due to them breaking and it seems BioWare completely removed most of them for release.

 

Even WoW has moved past the played out, tired old kill kill click quests.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Starglide

[TheOnlyKyrenS]

Because there is nothing else anyone can really do...

[Trineda]

Hello there,

 

This thread is starting to wander. We ask that threads made in General Discussion center on discussion of Star Wars™: The Old Republic™. While we understand that comparisons to other games happen, please be sure to keep this on topic in order for it to remain open. Thank You!

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[TargetOne]

There's your problem. You want a computerized virtual world capable of just about anything imaginable, except you don't seem to understand the limitations that an online MMORPG has. As well as the return of investment required to develop a huge game. You want a tabletop RPG.

 

This.

[Vlacke]

SWTOR is vastly superior to any other MMO regarding questing and story, to the extent that competition's titles cannot even be compared to this game.

[ACLucius]

We are still there because all objectives that make sense can be boiled down to:

 

Collect something

Kill something.

Escort someone.

 

They can be masked well, sure, but that's all *anything* boiled down to, if you look deep enough.

 

If you would like to suggest some alternatives, go ahead. Willing to bet I'll be able to reduce them to kill/collect/escort!

 

True enough that is what everything essentially is when you get down to the very basics, but some games have made it seem like much more than that. One game in particular which I always thought did its quests quite well was RuneScape. Say what you will about the game, it has a very good system when you get passed the graphics, the combat system, and such. Quests are more than just the basics, you actually feel like you are on a real quest. Now, if they turned that game into a AAA MMO, I have a feeling others would be in some big trouble.

[Darth_Gao_Gao]

until some super advanced AI is created, games will have to rely on these traditional and simple mechanics. there just isn't another way, at the current moment. and even when that super advanced AI is created, in the end, conflict in stories generally regard killing things, obtaining things, and going places to do such things. what differs is the amount of fluff and atmosphere you can pile on top of these core mechanics.

[Viruzzz]

All objectives can be distilled into very simple parts

 

Kill

Collect

Travel

 

and additionally instead of a completion condition there could be a failure condition, like if the NPC dies in the escort quest or the timer runs out etc.

There really is no other part to put into a mission, the only thing you can do is layer them to create complex objectives, but complexity isn't fun, at least not inherently. They can be just as fun, sure, but that's to do with countless factors other than complexity.

[SaberBladeUK]

I must admit, as a stealth user, it would have been nice if quests took that into consideration.

 

I understand that it's easier to have 4 or 5 class quests per planet then share all the optional quests, but I'd much rather be rewarded for my stealth abilities than be spammed with bonuses like kill 20 enemies for bonus round one, kill 40 enemies for bonus round two. I'd much rather be rewarded for doing a quest undetected or for killing less than a certain amount of people.

 

Ultimately, the real fun in the quests didn't come from killing everything that moved but completing it without being caught at all. I pretty much soloed my Consular class quest and the optional quests with the exception of 1 or 2 boss battles and the occasional heroic. which was mostly due to my own skill tree failures, gear and being under-levelled. Sadly missing out on so many fights caused my level to suffer from time to time because I wanted to Solid Snake my way through the game. Damn you David Hayter for not being the voice of Consular.

Edited April 20, 2012 by SaberBladeUK

[Darkulous]

I don't know about anyone else but I fully enjoy killing rats. They are disgusting vile creatures. I just wish the quest demanded more of their deaths.

[nicosand]

The only thing that I would truly love to come from the lightside/darkside choces in the end, was the option to actually change faction once you reached tier5 of your chosen side That would have been friggin' epic!

[Andryah]

I was thinking that I have yet to kill a rat in this game. Then I remembered I ganked some womprats during my first trip through Tatooine. I have yet to kill any pigs though, or Night Elves.

 

Seriously though, this game is so far away from the feeling of kill questing that I really do not understand the point of the thread. Sure, quests have objectives, and there are only so many varieties to go around. But in this game the kill quests are basically automatic bonus quests that come and go with or without you killing. They are basically free extra xp as you travel in pursuit of an actual quest objective. The story lines bundle the real quests so that they feel less mundane and repetative then in other MMOs.

 

ALL MMOs use multiple forms of tasking and provide rewards for completing said tasking. At least this one makes it interesting.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Andryah

[SWaotc]

I quite agree with the OP on this and have asked myself the very same thing (particularly in the mind numbingly boring parts of this game - you all know they exsist.)

 

The fact is Bioware didnt want to take the chance of breaking the mould and having it fail, they wanted to try and poach players from the likes of WoW with a familiar platform in terms of the core gameplay (i.e during the parts when your actually controlling the toon) and being noobs to the MMO scene it was much easier for bioware to look at what others had done and replicate it. Adding of course their own expertise in the form of the story.

 

I believe this to be a somewhat accurate and truthful view on the why SWTOR is what it is, on the grounds of common sense.

SWTOR is not ground breaking by any stretch of the imagination, it's simply a mesh of biowares own stlye of story driven RPG with MMO grind mechanics (spoiled by?)

As for alternatives? well atleast other genres disguise the grindyness, Biowares attempt at this was using the storylines however the actual gameplay itself has basically been left as a blatant grind. This is the reason i unsubbed because i can only take this sort of game in small doses despite loving SW and even Biowares story content.

 

They missed a real opportunity to do something different with SWTOR, obviously they were lacking in vision and backbone with regards to trying new things.

[Othehto]

It really goes back to how SWTOR implemented this "dynamic" event. Some elements are terrific and truly add to the MMOverse such as the fleet announcements and the videos at Mos Ila/Anchorhead.

 

However they missed some truly revolutionary opportunities;

 

If the plague is "spreading" why do we continue using static spawns? It's not difficult to have random groups spawn at the wreckage and path towards and attack key locations like outposts; make the groups have varying power levels/make ups so there are something for all levels to engage.

 

If travel is curtailed and citizens are directed to (at least from the empire side) terminate infected persons on sight. Why do we not feel more of this in game. Rather than just blow up; people blowing up should spawn a Rakghoul in their place (representing the transformation) perhaps of equivalent level for the zone they are in. Guards scanning fleet entrances should be a little more aggressive and a bigger threat than the 2 weak mobs that rappelled down. At least make traveling to the "quarantined" planet seem like it's quarantined rather simply a matter of doing what I normally do; Perhaps I need to run a blockade in my space craft to get there; or "ride a rogue merchant" which gets boarded (small flashpoint but just one soloable conflict).

 

I would have preferred a "typhoid mary" you have to locate and stop that wanders from town to town spreading the plague in their wake and turning generic NPCs into rampaging ghouls. Stopping the "mary" starts her on another random path and finding her by following the trail of destruction fosters a reward. Better than click escape pods; spawn infected soldiers; click junk; spawn infected jawas; what am I clicking tomorrow? This is "dynamic"

 

Having the news report in text someone downing an invading rakghoul in defense of an outpost would be a simple matter of recording which %t made the killing blow and then you put it on a ticker at the bottom of the screen.

 

News flash....., reports from the outer rims report that a lone </class> known as </name> was able to turn back a potential invasion of </location name>. Reports are still sketchy at this time; citizen casualties were kept to a minimum by </name's> aggressive yet admirable action.

 

Today, many of us have grown up playing MMOs for over 15 years. We have watched many single player RPGs evolve (from Bard's Tale to Skryim) and expect to see similar within peer genres.

[nicosand]

IBiowares attempt at this was using the storylines however the actual gameplay itself has basically been left as a blatant grind. This is the reason i unsubbed because i can only take this sort of game in small doses despite loving SW and even Biowares story content.

 

Yet here you still are, hanging around in the forums...