Marauders? What about Pyrotechs? (honest question regarding damage numbers)

[wtfnonamefree]

Next time you see that a "not terrible" Pyro killing your team, ask your Ops leader to mark him. See how much less damage he does when he spends all of his time running from the respawn point.

 

Exactly, since 1.2 we started marking certain dps, especially snipers. And my PT mate does ridiculous damage if left unchecked, but he's got no means of defense, when focussed. We have our 45s shroud plus selfheal, the maras their 45s ur plus selfheal and they have only their meager 2m cd, which isn't as great anyway.

[mamosh]

In all threads about class balance everyone breaks down those one or two guys that lie or beefs up the numbers while no one quotes on or comments on those that have legitimate complaints. I'm not saying pyros are op but in every wz with a not terrible pyro they top dps. And they also kill anyone in single target dos super quick so it's not just aoe numbers

 

I'm not calling them op. but a super high damage elemental tech dps with no real counter to their damage and almost everything instant seems a little off to mee. But I don't know. Elementals means bypasses armor and tech means bypasses all tank stats. They are just unmitigateable insane damage. I think that's the issue

 

i do agree pyro dps is insane (i do play one and usaly rock chars by 100-200k more dmg done) in pugs BUT we die more often then any marauder usaly the guys below me are maras and they have 2 deaths compared to my 7-9 id love to trade them 100k of my dmg for 3 of there defence cds (thats includung cloak)

[Dasgruberg]

Scoreboard damage done is not an accurate measure of the usefulness of a class.

 

Pyro rotation does AoE damage, Marauder rotation (unless Rage specced), does not. That's why you see Pyros doing more damage at the end of a match.

 

although my PT is only 45, i gotta say its mostly single target dps in my experience. Incindiary missile, railshot, rocketpunch / flameburst, thermal detonator, railshot again etc.its only death from above and AOE flamethrower thats aoe , and that last one i rareley use unless my stealthscan is on CD.

[EmoJihad]

Pyro is probably one of the most damaging specs in the game. What they lack compared to Mara/Sent is the survivability. They have next to none compared to the many powerful defensive CD's that the warriors have. 1v1 as a high level Pyro player I have no chance against a good mara with their CD's up. This is why you see more Mara as they are better at smaller fights, of which there are many in WZ's. Van / PT Pyro is now VERY team dependant, they NEED the guard and heals to be viable now with the huge drop in TTK.

 

I haven't finished reading this whole post yet, but when I saw this one I couldn't agree more with their statement. Yes, pyro's put out crazy damage numbers on top of providing protection for their team. But they only really shine in a group setting, compared to a marauder. 1v1 a marauder that is well played will be one of the toughest classes to bring down, and they still do pretty well in a group setting. I think most pyrotech's would agree with me. I play marauder btw, so this is coming from an unbiased perspective, I don't think pyrotech's are to be considered OP. If we ever get some form of arena's that allows us to pvp in smaller groups you will see that other classes like marauder and operative will thrive while pyrotechs will struggle a bit.

[finkfad]

I play a merc pyro (BM with champion relics, champion offhand and recruit earpiece) and its true we have very high dps. However, I also play a level 40 madness sorc, and the utility between the two characters are heaven and earth apart (even judging by < level 50 pvp).

 

While my sorc does less dps than my merc at level 40, she has bubble + force speed, which actually provides incredible utility in warzones, and also escaping from 1v1s. I sometimes feel like I contribute so much more in terms of overall play with my sorc, even with less dps, in huttball especially. With my merc pyro however, I really have to concentrate to put myself in positions where I can contribute to objectives but in less tangible ways (guarding doors, securing mid in huttball, guarding turrets with my stealth scan, etc.). With my sorc I just seem to do so much more.

 

My two cents by the way. Not representative of anyone else's opinion at all.

[Surbatu]

i do agree pyro dps is insane (i do play one and usaly rock chars by 100-200k more dmg done) in pugs BUT we die more often then any marauder usaly the guys below me are maras and they have 2 deaths compared to my 7-9 id love to trade them 100k of my dmg for 3 of there defence cds (thats includung cloak)

It a deal, sir!

 

So... i'll have your heavy armor, which gives me 20-30% dmg redution (to all energy/kinetic) instead of my 20% Rebuke (yes, 20% to all dmg, but HALF of the time in best case, and needs to be used properly - I gladly exchange it).

Then, cloak and undying - ok, take it, but I'll take your stun and taunt gladly of cause, and want Ravage to be AOE and your Shield instead of my Ward too.

 

U totally don't know what u are talking about. I top charts with my dying counter without a healer and tank.

 

Think! You top charts with damage dying more often than maras? It IS crazy damage maras can dream of.

[ripamorame]

Yes pyrotechs hit hard but think about this do they have any useful defensive cooldowns? No they dont a marauder has alot more so dont use pyro's as a attempt to divert people from marauders when pyros have about as much dps and 0 defensive cooldowns if you lose to a pyro as a marauder or a jugg you are playing wrong.

[Surbatu]

Yes pyrotechs hit hard but think about this do they have any useful defensive cooldowns? No they dont a marauder has alot more so dont use pyro's as a attempt to divert people from marauders when pyros have about as much dps and 0 defensive cooldowns if you lose to a pyro as a marauder or a jugg you are playing wrong.

Pyros HAVE havy armor (instead of Cloak of Pain, which id be glad to trade) and Shield instead of Ward (which i gladly trade too).

So, only Undying left and I can trade it for your stun (even with 4 sec stealth).

 

Dont FOOL people.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Surbatu

[Laforet]

i completely agree with this thread PT PYROS are a nightmare in wzs. they can dps harder than a mara (if they know what they are doing) and since they are not 100% melee (their main skills hit at 10m range) they are super hard to be kited.

 

- out of control burst damage

- a "spammable" 10m snare (talented flame burst that auto procs plasma cilinder slow)

- good short cooldowns that help them heat manage

- reasonable defense CDs (they have a dmg reduct CD that can be talented to unsnare them and a CD that regenetares HP)

 

thought biscuit. worse than maras IMO.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Laforet

[ripamorame]

Pyros HAVE havy armor (instead of Cloak of Pain, which id be glad to trade) and Shield instead of Ward (which i gladly trade too).

So, only Undying left and I can trade it for your stun (even with 4 sec stealth).

 

Dont FOOL people.

Mate you have a ability to increase armor and the pt shield reduces damage by 10% lololol l2p and learn about what you have armor doesn't mitigate jack why do you think no tanks gear in tank gear? and ward makes you deflect by 50% which would you rather take a rail shot/ ambush with 10% damage reduced or deflect it? hmmm silly noob knows nothing about pvp oh a stun big game changer its not like you can cc or anything and they can't :/

Edited April 30, 2012 by ripamorame

[Varicite]

i completely agree with this thread PT PYROS are a nightmare in wzs. they can dps harder than a mara (if they know what they are doing) and since they are not 100% melee (their main skills hit at 10m range) they are super hard to be kited.

 

- out of control burst damage - Out of control compared to? Snipers can hit just as hard, if not harder. Also, take a look at Juggernauts.

- a "spammable" 10m snare (talented flame burst that auto procs plasma cilinder slow) - Lasts 2 seconds, won't be spammed by anyone who knows what they're doing, due to the 1.2 changes. Every other melee class has the same strength snare (50%) w/ a much higher uptime for less resource cost.

- good short cooldowns that help them heat manage - ONE cooldown on a 1.5 minute timer.

- reasonable defense CDs (they have a dmg reduct CD that can be talented to unsnare them and a CD that regenetares HP) - Nobody takes the talent that unsnares them, because the shield is on a 2 min cd and is the ONLY real defensive cd a PT has, so they use it for... defense. The HoT regenerates all of 15% hp over 10 seconds on a 3 min cd. Just for comparison, this is about the same amount of health that a Tankasin regenerates EVERY 10 SECONDS. A Marauder regenerates more health than this on a near-constant basis thanks to crit bleeds that don't have a real cooldown.

 

thought biscuit. worse than maras IMO.

 

I can see how you'd think that if you don't really understand PT mechanics. Honestly, I think Maras are way scarier. : )

[Safid]

People don't complain about Powertech Pyros because they're not broken. They do tons of damage, but their counter is available to every other class in the game -- just target them and press damage buttons until they die. Marauders have more and better escapes and defensive cooldowns, and it's a lot harder to deal with those.

 

I don't care if you think Marauders are unbalanced or not -- it's still much harder to deal with 6s of damage immunity, stealth, and stacking active mitigation skills. You have to know what to do against a Marauder and play smart, whereas all you need to take down a Pyro who pops their shield is slightly more damage (i.e. just do what you were doing anyway, but press your buttons HARDER).

 

I'm not saying Marauders are broken and Pyros aren't. I'm saying it's harder to counter a Marauder than it is a Pyro, and that's why no one complains.

[exphryl]

- ]Nobody takes the talent that unsnares them, because the shield is on a 2 min cd and is the ONLY real defensive cd a PT has, so they use it for... defense.

 

You forgot the part where it doesn't make you immune so you waste a cool down on something that gets reapplied automatically anyway by my classes

 

If Degauss was Immunity to Roots/Snares it'd be worthwhile.

Edited April 30, 2012 by exphryl

[Soapland]

Scoreboard damage done is not an accurate measure of the usefulness of a class.

 

Pyro rotation does AoE damage, Marauder rotation (unless Rage specced), does not. That's why you see Pyros doing more damage at the end of a match.

 

Dude you don't know ****. Pyro rotation doesn't do ANY aoe damage, incendiary missile, flame burst, railshot, rocket punch and thermal detonator, ALL single target.

[HollowVamp]

Be happy, your complaining about post nerf pyrotechs

[Laforet]

- out of control burst damage - Out of control compared to? Snipers can hit just as hard, if not harder. Also, take a look at Juggernauts.

- a "spammable" 10m snare (talented flame burst that auto procs plasma cilinder slow) - Lasts 2 seconds, won't be spammed by anyone who knows what they're doing, due to the 1.2 changes. Every other melee class has the same strength snare (50%) w/ a much higher uptime for less resource cost.

- good short cooldowns that help them heat manage - ONE cooldown on a 1.5 minute timer.

- reasonable defense CDs (they have a dmg reduct CD that can be talented to unsnare them and a CD that regenetares HP) - Nobody takes the talent that unsnares them, because the shield is on a 2 min cd and is the ONLY real defensive cd a PT has, so they use it for... defense. The HoT regenerates all of 15% hp over 10 seconds on a 3 min cd. Just for comparison, this is about the same amount of health that a Tankasin regenerates EVERY 10 SECONDS. A Marauder regenerates more health than this on a near-constant basis thanks to crit bleeds that don't have a real cooldown.

 

 

 

I can see how you'd think that if you don't really understand PT mechanics. Honestly, I think Maras are way scarier. : )

 

 

 

snipers can be line of sighted easier than pyros but i agree with you on the juggie part.

 

juggie > pyro > mara. in terms of nuke thats how i put it.

 

2x hits of HiB in the space of 6 seconds + plasma cell dottting + incendiary round dotting (dont tell me good pyros dont use this because they do to avoid the "false HiB proc") + the ocasional stock strike/ion pulse + assault plastique blowing up. all this in quick sucession + relic + crit skill is out of control, yes. i play an assault trooper, i know what im talking about.

 

the trooper/pyro snare is based on the plasma cell application. we can snare people with hammer shot (rapid shots) and it happens fairly frequently. the ion pulse hits guarantee that the plasma cell (and thus the slow) will be applyed, and most troopers use ion pulse frequently for the needed HiB reset (stockstrike resets HiB too, but we dont like to get in melee range of a mara/jugg so stocstrike them do we?). you are talking about costs as if we just used ion pulse to slow: we dont, its an active part of our rotation. it means we have slow proc on free attack and guaranteed slow proc on one of our most used skills. thats very reliable.

 

our ammo usage is also ok. we have recharge cells on a 1:30 CD. a reasonable time since HiB hits replenish a ton of ammo. we also have reserve powercells on a 2 min CD and we can spec adrenaline fueled to reduce it even further. a lot of people spec it.

 

lol nobody takes degauss? u sure of that? have you ever talked to oozo? there are no useless skills in this game, just useless players. yeah i agree that degauss isnt a GODSEND but its a reasonable skill that lets you espace from tricky situaions (sniper knockback / root for instance).

 

but i agree with you, adrenaline rush is lacklustre if compared to other self heals in the game, but its self heal and i will take it every day.

 

im not scared of marauders, i kite them to death from gcd starvation with my trooper every day (of course real maras give me a hard time but thats life i need to L2P harder too). but my mirrors seem to be impossible to kite and wreck me harder than any class, its a matter of who made the jump first and thats not fun IMO.

[Xerain]

Yes pyrotechs hit hard but think about this do they have any useful defensive cooldowns? No they dont a marauder has alot more so dont use pyro's as a attempt to divert people from marauders when pyros have about as much dps and 0 defensive cooldowns if you lose to a pyro as a marauder or a jugg you are playing wrong.

 

That's a fair trade off isn't it? Pyros get stupid burst damage and heavy armor while annihilation marauder gets great sustained with medium armor and some cool downs.

[Blurps]

That's a fair trade off isn't it? Pyros get stupid burst damage and heavy armor while annihilation marauder gets great sustained with medium armor and some cool downs.

 

Cooldowns >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heavy armour in this game.

[KBSIP]

That's a fair trade off isn't it? Pyros get stupid burst damage and heavy armor while annihilation marauder gets great sustained with medium armor and some cool downs.

 

the difference between heavy armor and medium armor of similar levels is only ~5% mitigation of kinetic and energy damage. Given the power of burst potential and focus fire, the difference this makes in PVP is almost nonexistent because of how short fights are, and cooldowns have more utility in the rapid pace of swtor PVP. The cooldowns are also more useful in PVE content as the most dangerous damage phases come in predictable frenzy and/or AOE phases all with visual and audio cues.

 

I can't stress this enough, looking at TOTAL DAMAGE DONE in a warzone is a pointless measure. A Pyro Powertech will rack up hundreds of thousands even without kills if they spread DoT's liberally. A Madness sorc can match their damage output, as can most other serious damage classes including any that are consistently fighting healers (which artificially bolsters overall damage). Considering that if you are fighting ALL the time and never die in a warzone, a pure DPS class should be hitting around 1.1k DPS, and the fact that this is not the case, Total damage numbers are completely unreliable in terms of determining which class is overpowered.

 

Despite all the complaints about "heavy" armor, ultimately glass cannon is a viable name for the powertech. Armor as a whole is fairly weak in non-tanking stances for this game, with minor mitigation boosts balanced out by predictable boss mechanics and the need to mitigate high burst over sustained damage.

 

The ultimate point here is that no, pyros are not overpowered. They are, in fact, underpowered when compared to marauders. Why? because marauders can match pyro burst and sustained DPS in both PVE and PVP, but also offer the best group buffs in the game and ALSO have more defensive cooldowns than any tanking class. Those two factors are not mitigated by 'heavy armor" because heavy armor, and armor in general isn't anywhere near a significantly impacting factor in content unless you use a tanking stance.

[Surbatu]

Mate you have a ability to increase armor and the pt shield reduces damage by 10% lololol l2p and learn about what you have armor doesn't mitigate jack why do you think no tanks gear in tank gear? and ward makes you deflect by 50% which would you rather take a rail shot/ ambush with 10% damage reduced or deflect it? hmmm silly noob knows nothing about pvp oh a stun big game changer its not like you can cc or anything and they can't :/

Ability to increase armor? lol what is that at all?

It is u who must l2p

Energy Shield reduces all damage taken by 25%

and armor DO mitigate energy/kinetic damage

and pyros can stun u and do all their crazy damage

 

Im not saying Pyros are OP, I just laugh at Pyros saying how OP maras are

 

when i rolled Pyro it was just like "wow i fell like easy mode mara on steroids"

I just destroyed ppl so easily it even wasn't fun

[TonyDragonflame]

Pyrotechs must be nerfed! There is not defence or shield against their elemental fire damage and it breaks my stealth too Edited April 30, 2012 by TonyDragonflame

[KBSIP]

Pyrotechs must be nerfed! There is not defence or shield against their elemental fire damage and it breaks my stealth too

 

maybe you should get a healer to cleanse you before you battle cloak then. 1v1 is not the balancing focus.