Marauders? What about Pyrotechs? (honest question regarding damage numbers)

[Lightzzoutt]

Difference is, If I get lucky on my marauder I can kill a dude in 3 globals. That will never ever happen on my vanguard.

 

Also, my marauder lives usually a good 30 seconds when getting focused and can slip away if needed.

 

My vanguard has to sit there and take it like a man.

 

BS. Even a focus spec will not kill someone in 3 globals.

 

exaggerate more please

[Bloodtau]

Pyrotech's got nerfed into oblivion with 1.2. SO yeah, THAT'S why no one is talking about them. My Pyrotech feels like he is slapping people with a wet fish at times. The class it feels like this the most against? Marauders.

[peachking]

Marauders are not overpowered because they out damage other classes, marauders are overpowered because they have the best pvp utility in the game right now (undying rage +pot, super low cd force camo to avoid death, snares, etc., bloodthirst or whatever the big 5min cd is, gap closer, cloak of pain, saber ward, and there are more smaller ones that may be spec dependant etc.--this is not to mention the multiple ways Maras can lock down a caster with several different ways to interrupt

 

As far as PT powertechs go, I am not sure about their defensive and offensive cds, but for my V70 merc pyro, I have one defensive CD (my bubble), a knockback, a stun, a negligible selfheal, and my insta cast/no cost cds... but it's ok because I can kite you until you charge again????????????? lol

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

My problem is not with damage... my problem with maras is with their insane utility at ALL times... my merc doesn't even have a true interrupt ability...

[Kahn_Frost]

Pyrotech's got nerfed into oblivion with 1.2. SO yeah, THAT'S why no one is talking about them. My Pyrotech feels like he is slapping people with a wet fish at times. The class it feels like this the most against? Marauders.

 

While I keep an open mind to most people's claims no matter how ridiculous it may sound (such as 3 globaling people on Marauders), I absolutely cannot believe what you have just posted.

 

On my Vanguard alt who is in Recruit/Champion gear (using Champ gun), I can do the following damage inside the first 10secs

Incendiary missile (ticks like 3 times inside 10secs?) > Assault Plastique (crits for 2.5k+ on detonation) > HIB (3-4k depending if I blow adrenals/relic) > Stockstrike (~2k) > HIB on proc again for another 3-4k.

 

Even on my Vanguard alt whom I admit is a gimp in my gear, I am doing at least 6k if nothing crits which is not likely, upwards of 12k if I get crits on big hitters like HIB inside the first 10secs. How could you possibly say that is hitting like a wet noodle? Are you a fresh lv50 with no Recruit gear and jumping into WZs with green leveling gear?

Edited April 19, 2012 by Kahn_Frost

[Varicite]

I'm not a soft target. I sit at between 17 - 18 k in Heavy Armor. I know what Pyro hit for pre 1.2 and I know what they hit for post 1.2. Operative nerfs were very noticeable, the very few Ops that adjusted continue to thrive but obviously they don't perform as before. Its a joke that you are somehow correlating Operative nerfs to what changed to Pyro Powertech. Reaching .....

 

There was QQ on powertech forum prior to them actually playing the new 1.2 changes but once it hit most just went silent & for the good players its business as usual. Heat management and prolonged fights is not the context of what i mentioned cause many classes have resource management issues. What I am talking about is the burst cycle they initiate when they start to engage targets . This is still extremely high &piles on pressure. And you are talking about heat management .

 

Your heavy armor means absolutely nothing to a Pyro PT who deals Elemental damage and ignores 90% of your armor w/ Rail Shot. You ARE a soft target for a Pyro, because you aren't rocking awesome defensive cooldowns like a Marauder or Assassin, and you don't have a way to escape the battle. You're thinking about it too broadly, and not in terms of the class you're facing.

 

The expertise buffs helped Pyro PTs as much as every other DPS class; they were never a slouch in that department to begin w/. It was generally accepted that behind Tankasins and Marauders, Pyro PT was the 3rd best 1v1 class in the game. So yes, they are still that.

 

As for heat management, if you can't understand why their burst capability is directly tied to heat management, then it's obvious you've never played the class, as the entire spec is built around those procs venting heat for them. It is already one of the largest resource hogs in the game, and it means that a Pyro begins to flag very quickly in any situation where prolonged fighting occurs. So basically against good healers, and classes w/ defensive abilities that allow them to outlast a Pyro's initial burst sequences. Don't forget that they can't just leave a battle and regen resources; overheating means death in most cases, unless nobody notices you.

 

It's a powerful class, but there are weaknesses. I'd say it's really pretty balanced; it's a glass cannon spec w/ all of the glass and the cannon.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Varicite

[Xsorus]

Pyrotech's are basically Marauders in terms of damage, But without all the goodies Marauders bring (Utility/Defense)

[Kahn_Frost]

That is simply not true, a lot of people make direct comparisons between Marauders' defensive cooldowns and a Powertech's sole -25% dmg cooldown. But a lot of people forget that Powertechs do have a lot of utility in the form of;

 

a) Grapple which is huge in Huttball and for protecting healers,

b) single target taunt and AE taunt which when used smartly (on the highest damage player) can make a big difference

c) on demand DFA 1min cd aoe which can be used to break multiple cappers in Voidstar and out of los cappers on Civil War, and also as a deterrent on attackers if they stack on your healer. And just as an overall good AE ability even post nerf.

 

(On an unrelated note, Tankassassins bring almost all of the above + force speed, AE knockback, Guard and personal defensive cooldowns that rivals the Marauder so that is another beast altogether)

 

I am not advocating Pyros to be nerfed, I am just trying to put things into perspective when I see untrue claims. Both Pyros and Marauders are very powerful imo and I'm glad I have both classes at 50 on pub side

Edited April 19, 2012 by Kahn_Frost

[pwnshoppe]

That is simply not true, a lot of people make direct comparisons between Marauders' defensive cooldowns and a Powertech's sole -25% dmg cooldown. But a lot of people forget that Powertechs do have a lot of utility in the form of;

 

a) Grapple which is huge in Huttball and for protecting healers,

b) single target taunt and AE taunt which when used smartly (on the highest damage player) can make a big difference

c) on demand DFA 1min cd aoe which can be used to break multiple cappers in Voidstar and out of los cappers on Civil War, and also as a deterrent on attackers if they stack on your healer. And just as an overall good AE ability even post nerf.

 

(On an unrelated note, Tankassassins bring almost all of the above + force speed, AE knockback, Guard and personal defensive cooldowns that rivals the Marauder so that is another beast altogether)

 

I am not advocating Pyros to be nerfed, I am just trying to put things into perspective when I see untrue claims. Both Pyros and Marauders are very powerful imo and I'm glad I have both classes at 50 on pub side

 

 

All of these things have equal or much longer cooldowns than any of my marauders skills. I encourage you to roll at PT/vanguard and feel how squishy you actually are.

[Kahn_Frost]

As mentioned in an earlier post, I have a 50 Assault Vanguard I PVP with and I know full well the capabilities and shortcomings of a Vanguard.

 

I am not saying a Vanguard's defensive cooldowns is as good as a Marauder (funny how Marauder haters like to twist people's posts to suit their nerf propaganda), I am just replying to the previous poster who said Powertechs have no utility.

[LordExozone]

Well I can tell you that no Vanguard can come close in damage to a PT. Mirror class ha ha that's a laugh. If I see a PT I basically run away and hope I don't burn to death before I find a healing pack.

 

??

 

They are the exact same, with the same abilities, same talents, and same damage output...

[Stovokor]

Your heavy armor means absolutely nothing to a Pyro PT who deals Elemental damage and ignores 90% of your armor w/ Rail Shot. You ARE a soft target for a Pyro, because you aren't rocking awesome defensive cooldowns like a Marauder or Assassin, and you don't have a way to escape the battle. You're thinking about it too broadly, and not in terms of the class you're facing.

This paragraph basically cemented what I am saying. They ignore mitigation of many classes w/o awesome defensive cd & subsequently unload crazy damage.

 

The expertise buffs helped Pyro PTs as much as every other DPS class; they were never a slouch in that department to begin w/. It was generally accepted that behind Tankasins and Marauders, Pyro PT was the 3rd best 1v1 class in the game. So yes, they are still that.

 

 

I don't know why you are emphasizing 1 vs 1 when OP is talking about performance in warzones. The real observations should be across warzones and what really happens. Sure in melee train Marauders are potent but its much easier to circumvent Marauders and prevent them applying the consecutive damage compared to a PT. This is the gist of what I am saying.

Immobile players will feel the brunt of Marauders DPS and get dropped by them in a few GCD's. That is like a best case scenario for Marauder.

On top of that, when I run my healer, mediocre Marauders don't even register on my radar whereelse average PT that keep churning out the same sequence need to take seriously even if they are not top players.

 

 

As for heat management, if you can't understand why their burst capability is directly tied to heat management, then it's obvious you've never played the class, as the entire spec is built around those procs venting heat for them. It is already one of the largest resource hogs in the game, and it means that a Pyro begins to flag very quickly in any situation where prolonged fighting occurs. So basically against good healers, and classes w/ defensive abilities that allow them to outlast a Pyro's initial burst sequences. Don't forget that they can't just leave a battle and regen resources; overheating means death in most cases, unless nobody notices you.

 

It's a powerful class, but there are weaknesses. I'd say it's really pretty balanced; it's a glass cannon spec w/ all of the glass and the cannon.

 

Resource management issues are now a bane across many classes but this has not stopped Pyro's from dropping players fast or negating them. On top of that if top level PT are present in a game I nearly always see them outperform other classes in damage as well. So they have the means to be effective and also get the stats.

[Xsorus]

That is simply not true, a lot of people make direct comparisons between Marauders' defensive cooldowns and a Powertech's sole -25% dmg cooldown. But a lot of people forget that Powertechs do have a lot of utility in the form of;

 

a) Grapple which is huge in Huttball and for protecting healers,

b) single target taunt and AE taunt which when used smartly (on the highest damage player) can make a big difference

c) on demand DFA 1min cd aoe which can be used to break multiple cappers in Voidstar and out of los cappers on Civil War, and also as a deterrent on attackers if they stack on your healer. And just as an overall good AE ability even post nerf.

 

(On an unrelated note, Tankassassins bring almost all of the above + force speed, AE knockback, Guard and personal defensive cooldowns that rivals the Marauder so that is another beast altogether)

 

I am not advocating Pyros to be nerfed, I am just trying to put things into perspective when I see untrue claims. Both Pyros and Marauders are very powerful imo and I'm glad I have both classes at 50 on pub side

 

A. having charge is huge in huttball, along with bloody group speed burst.

B. These are actual Utilities of a powertech, But then again, Marauders have a Heal Debuff.

C. Smash is far better then DFA.

 

now of these 3 abilities, what don't you bring up to go with it? That Marauders have Multiple Defense Capabilities as well allowing them to live through fights.

 

Pyro's don't have that.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Xsorus

[Kahn_Frost]

As for heat management, if you can't understand why their burst capability is directly tied to heat management, then it's obvious you've never played the class, as the entire spec is built around those procs venting heat for them. It is already one of the largest resource hogs in the game, and it means that a Pyro begins to flag very quickly in any situation where prolonged fighting occurs

 

You are correct that Pyrotechs/Assault Vanguards have issues with heat in prolonged fights. However, and speaking purely statistically, this 'limitation' does not seem to affect their overall performance much at all as they are currently able to out damage Marauders and Assassins consistently in Warzones.

 

On my server Dark Reaper, when comparing full BM geared Pyros vs Sentinel/Maras vs Assassins, Pyros are far outdamaging the other 'OP' classes within the same Warzone. Here is an example (http://s1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii489/ephex01/?action=view&current=Screenshot_2012-04-14_14_57_02_826377-1.jpg) There are healers on both sides, Knights/Warriors on both sides, Sorcs on both sides, this is on my server so I know they are all well geared. And sure, it's Voidstar which is 'AE' friendly (though I believe people have said Pyros have crappy AE post 1.2 in this very thread), but we are talking about 850k damage vs 350k next highest.

 

Now the above is just ONE example I pulled out, so let's not go down that 'sure that is a good player fighting poor team' excuse, you are smart enough to get my point.

 

While the heat issue with Pyros is a 'limitation', it certainly isn't holding them back in utterly dominating Warzone damage.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Kahn_Frost

[Kahn_Frost]

A. having charge is huge in huttball, along with bloody group speed burst.

B. These are actual Utilities of a powertech, But then again, Marauders have a Heal Debuff.

C. Smash is far better then DFA.

 

now of these 3 abilities, what don't you bring up to go with it? That Marauders have Multiple Defense Capabilities as well allowing them to live through fights.

 

Pyro's don't have that.

 

I guess you missed the post where I said I was replying to the guy who said Pyros have no utility, and that I'm not saying Pyros have better or same utility as a Mara.

[Varicite]

You are correct that Pyrotechs/Assault Vanguards have issues with heat in prolonged fights. However, and speaking purely statistically, this 'limitation' does not seem to affect their overall performance much at all as they are currently able to out damage Marauders and Assassins consistently in Warzones.

 

While the heat issue with Pyros is a 'limitation', it certainly isn't holding them back in utterly dominating Warzone damage.

 

I guess my question is: why should they not be dominating WZ damage, w/ less defenses than any other class capable of the same output?

 

There are cannons made of steel, and cannons made of glass. These people are picking on the glass one, for some reason.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Varicite

[EclipseWraith]

This is the same on my server nothing can compete with good competent pyrotech dps in PvP they are absolutely amazing single target dps.

 

You are correct that Pyrotechs/Assault Vanguards have issues with heat in prolonged fights. However, and speaking purely statistically, this 'limitation' does not seem to affect their overall performance much at all as they are currently able to out damage Marauders and Assassins consistently in Warzones.

 

On my server Dark Reaper, when comparing full BM geared Pyros vs Sentinel/Maras vs Assassins, Pyros are far outdamaging the other 'OP' classes within the same Warzone. Here is an example (http://s1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii489/ephex01/?action=view&current=Screenshot_2012-04-14_14_57_02_826377-1.jpg) There are healers on both sides, Knights/Warriors on both sides, Sorcs on both sides, this is on my server so I know they are all well geared. And sure, it's Voidstar which is 'AE' friendly (though I believe people have said Pyros have crappy AE post 1.2 in this very thread), but we are talking about 850k damage vs 350k next highest.

 

Now the above is just ONE example I pulled out, so let's not go down that 'sure that is a good player fighting poor team' excuse, you are smart enough to get my point.

 

While the heat issue with Pyros is a 'limitation', it certainly isn't holding them back in utterly dominating Warzone damage.

[Kahn_Frost]

I guess my question is: why should they not be dominating WZ damage, w/ less defenses than any other class capable of the same output?

 

There are cannons made of steel, and cannons made of glass. These people are picking on the glass one, for some reason.

 

Well firstly, I think you had not read through my posts, I am not advocating the nerfing of Pyros nor any other class in this thread. As the title suggests, I was just wondering why people are so fixated about Marauders while Pyros can kill you even faster.

 

Second, I agree a pure damage class (especially a defensively weak one) should rightfully top damage, but not to the gulf that is being displayed in warzones atm. If a Pyro can do that much damage, then so too should a Gunslinger, Scoundrel and Mercenary or at least be within 10% closer.

[Varicite]

Well firstly, I think you had not read through my posts, I am not advocating the nerfing of Pyros nor any other class in this thread. As the title suggests, I was just wondering why people are so fixated about Marauders while Pyros can kill you even faster.

 

Second, I agree a pure damage class (especially a defensively weak one) should rightfully top damage, but not to the gulf that is being displayed in warzones atm. If a Pyro can do that much damage, then so too should a Gunslinger, Scoundrel and Mercenary or at least be within 10% closer.

 

Gunslinger has more utility and defenses through Cover (though weak on the move), Scoundrels have heals and stealth to choose targets and escape, and Mercs bring heals and range.

 

PTs bring taunts and grapple.

 

Eh, at least that's my take on it. The damage may need toning down a bit, but I'm waiting for people to get more geared before deciding on that.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Varicite

[dcgregorya]

Thoughts?

 

DPS meters and my warzone and personal experience dispute what you're saying. Marauders on average do about 150 more DPS from what I've seen in equivalent gear than a powertech and powertechs pyro specs are much more 'feast or famine' and have much lower burst with the internal cooldown change.

[Kahn_Frost]

Gunslinger has more utility and defenses through Cover (though weak on the move), Scoundrels have stealth to choose targets and escape, and Mercs bring heals and range.

 

PTs bring taunts and grapple.

 

That is all true, and let's agree that Gunslingers and Mercs have slightly more utility than Pyros, with Scoundrels at best on same lvl as Pyros. Based on my personal observations on my server, this is the damage cap that elite players on my server from each of these classes are able to do in packed WZs like Voidstar.

 

1) Pyrotech - 850k+ (light door AE in voidstar post 1.2)

2) DPS Sorcs/Sages - ~650k (heavy door AE in voidstar)

3) Gunslingers (dot build) - ~650k (heavy ae dotting in voidstar)

4) AE Smash Jugs/Maras - ~550k (heavy door AE in voidstar)

5) Mercs - ~500k

6) Annihilation Maras - ~500k?

.

.

.

x) Scoundrels post 1.2 - Too few for a good sample size, but the few I've come across capped at 200ish k

 

Now factor in the respective defensive and utility cooldown differences, does that justify the gulf in damage performance? Especially when you consider the Pyro is doing mainly single target damage.

[mjohnsonfhk]

pyrotech damage is def 5/5

 

our survivability is 1/5 tho.

 

Simple solution to pyrotechs. Kill them before they kill you. Our only defense is our offense.

[LordbishopX]

You are correct that Pyrotechs/Assault Vanguards have issues with heat in prolonged fights. However, and speaking purely statistically, this 'limitation' does not seem to affect their overall performance much at all as they are currently able to out damage Marauders and Assassins consistently in Warzones.

 

On my server Dark Reaper, when comparing full BM geared Pyros vs Sentinel/Maras vs Assassins, Pyros are far outdamaging the other 'OP' classes within the same Warzone. Here is an example (http://s1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii489/ephex01/?action=view&current=Screenshot_2012-04-14_14_57_02_826377-1.jpg) There are healers on both sides, Knights/Warriors on both sides, Sorcs on both sides, this is on my server so I know they are all well geared. And sure, it's Voidstar which is 'AE' friendly (though I believe people have said Pyros have crappy AE post 1.2 in this very thread), but we are talking about 850k damage vs 350k next highest.

 

Now the above is just ONE example I pulled out, so let's not go down that 'sure that is a good player fighting poor team' excuse, you are smart enough to get my point.

 

While the heat issue with Pyros is a 'limitation', it certainly isn't holding them back in utterly dominating Warzone damage.

 

 

Makes me laugh cause so many kept saying NO way they can dps just wow........

[Payneintherear]

pyrotech damage is def 5/5

 

our survivability is 1/5 tho.

 

Simple solution to pyrotechs. Kill them before they kill you. Our only defense is our offense.

 

Yeah, because your armor and a flat 25% damage reduction obviously suck ***. It's funny how everybody seems to think their class is the squishiest.

 

Range, a stun, a flat 25% damage reduction and more armor than most dps classes is nowhere close to 1/5. More like 4/5.

[Varicite]

That is all true, and let's agree that Gunslingers and Mercs have slightly more utility than Pyros, with Scoundrels at best on same lvl as Pyros. Based on my personal observations on my server, this is the damage cap that elite players on my server from each of these classes are able to do in packed WZs like Voidstar.

 

1) Pyrotech - 850k+ (light door AE in voidstar post 1.2)

2) DPS Sorcs/Sages - ~650k (heavy door AE in voidstar)

3) Gunslingers (dot build) - ~650k (heavy ae dotting in voidstar)

4) AE Smash Jugs/Maras - ~550k (heavy door AE in voidstar)

5) Mercs - ~500k

6) Annihilation Maras - ~500k?

.

.

.

x) Scoundrels post 1.2 - Too few for a good sample size, but the few I've come across capped at 200ish k

 

Now factor in the respective defensive and utility cooldown differences, does that justify the gulf in damage performance? Especially when you consider the Pyro is doing mainly single target damage.

 

Well, Snipers/Gunslingers need to be looked at, as they are currently parsing WELL below what seems to be intended for their role in both PvP and PvE. That's a slightly different issue, imo.

 

But yeah, I do think the damage may need to be looked at, but peoples' stats are all over the place right now, and it's hard to really judge anything when the testing environment is so screwy. That's what I meant by waiting until more people gear up to decide whether I still think it's on the high side.

 

Don't forget how underpowered everyone believed Marauders to be when everyone was undergeared, and look what happened when gear became more normalized.

 

I will never deny the strength of a Pyro PT, but it's hard to sit idly by and watch people talk as though it was some sort of new godclass, lol. (No, not you, but some in this thread...)

[Hokonoso]

Hi there. Let me preface this by saying I play on average 15 Warzones per day during peak hours, more during weekends, so my observations in this post are based on my personal experience from my server's warzones (Dark Reaper). I also have a lv50 Assault Vanguard, Watchman Sentinel, Seer Sage all of whom (pre-1.2) are geared in mix-mash ranging from full Champ, to partial Cent-Champ, or Champ-BM. So I do speak from a pretty neutral point of view as I've experienced all the class archetypes.

 

Now I am seeing posts everywhere all over various forums talking about how OP Sentinels and Darkness (tank) Assassins are, so much that Sentinels are 3-shotting people (yeah right... lol). While I am not refuting that Sentinels and Assassins are performing very well atm, I am extremely surprised at the conspicuous lack of 'whine' posts regarding Pyro Powertechs (and its mirror class).

 

I play a fair amount of Warzones on a daily basis, and in every match that has a Pyrotech/Assaultguard present they are almost always topping damage meters by a fair margin (the difference is magnified in Voidstar). I have made a point to note who else were also present in the warzones, and my observations were that even with some of the best geared Marauders/Sents on my server present, Pyrotechs still dominate the damage done. If you play on Dark Reaper, you know what I am talking about if you've seen Vanni, Vaux or Illfoxyl and some other Pyros tearing people up doing up to 600-800k+ damage in Voidstars for example.

 

So I am curious, is it because Pyros/Vanguards are much less played than Marauders/Assassins that people just get owned less by them so they turn their attention to the classes that has more players? Because I can safely say that Pyros are in no way inferior to Marauders in terms of damage, I know this for a fact too since that is what I am playing as well.

 

If Marauders were 4/5 for damage, then Pyros would be 5/5 for me, while Tank Assassins would be 3.5/5 if they wear dps gear. This is balanced by defense, where Marauders have 4/5 again due to excellent defensive cooldowns, while Pyros have just heavy armor and a -25% to all damage putting them at 3/5 (the option to safely damage from range to avoid getting focused in a skirmish is a huge plus too), while Tank Assassins at 4.5/5 even while wearing dps gear.

 

Does anyone else share my observations or is my server an anomaly where Pyros are dominating damage done killing people in 1v1 in under 10 secs? (2 railshots for ~5-9k damage, 1 thermal detonator, 2-3 fire bursts, 1 IM = ~10secs). Annihilation Marauders are annoying as **** with their cooldowns, but at least they take time to do their damage and you have that possibility of outplaying them if you time your stuns/cooldowns right. But with Pyro Railshot burst it's just, 'oh hey I'm at 50% already from the initial salvo, 6secs later I am dead once Railshot goes off cooldown'.

 

Thoughts?

 

it's because powertechs are squishy and anyone can kill them, marauders and tankasins are not killable when their cooldowns are up, AND they still do tons of dps on top if it. no matter how you look at it, no one is going to complain about a glass cannon (ie powertech) when there are tank-turrets out there (marauder/tankasin). ive seen tankasins do 400k dmg 60k protection, yes you will have a powertech with 500k dmg 20k protection at the same time, but he always had way more deaths and no one cared cause he was easy to kill... and marauders just destroy ball carriers making them way more annoying than a powertech who only gets 2 railshots off then doesnt do much for a little while (burst is way down).

 

here is the kicker, no one wants marauder, tankasin or even powertech dps lowered... all they want is tankasin and marauder survivability lowered in the form of nerfing their cooldowns... im sorry but 99% dmg reduction for 5 seconds is flat out stupid. and tankasins have 2 amazing cooldowns on a 45s and 1min cooldown which is just way too fast for pvp and trivializes content in pve... powertechs were nerfed, they were way worse before 1.2, dont beat the dead horse... for the most part ppls dmg is fine, it's the other stuff which give them unfair advantages in pvp that ppl want nerfed.

Edited April 20, 2012 by LexiCazam
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