Marauders? What about Pyrotechs? (honest question regarding damage numbers)

[alanisUDL]

As a PT sorcs are cannon fodder, and Mercs are pretty even, but an OP shouldn't be getting killed by a lone pyrotech. Straight up. They have so much going for them in that match up there is absolutely no reason an op should ever be concerned about a single pyrotech.

 

Perhaps it is yourself then? I've battled the top players on my server, and by far the hardest to survive are well-played Pyros. Exceptional Marauders are a close second, with Mediocre Pyros 3rd.

[exphryl]

If you're spending a GCD to cleanse a 50% movement snare that only lasts 2 seconds, you're doing something wrong.

 

Also, Operatives (well played ones) Healers, are an absolute pain to take down without using DPS Cooldowns. They have more than enough tools to survive. Fun fact, Snare the pyro (since your snare lasts more than 2 seconds), Cleanse the dot on you, get a lot of range.

 

The amount of Operative Healers that stand in one place and try to tank me is seriously mind boggling. You are a movement healer, use your movement!

[Varicite]

Yep. Seems like the only counter is a pure dps race with the bunny hoppin' bastages.

 

Or dispel the dot on you, if you are a class that can do so.

 

But yeah, pretty much DPS race. Pyro PTs have no real defenses, so those big hits are all they bring to the table.

 

If you're spending a GCD to cleanse a 50% movement snare that only lasts 2 seconds, you're doing something wrong.

 

If you think the snare has anything to do w/ the reason you should cleanse the DoT, you're doing something even more wrong.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Varicite

[Karandor]

Pyro's don't have good AoE. AP/Tactics are the AoE kings.

 

 

After the patch pyros are still nasty but nothing compared to what they were before the patch. The way to beat them is using any CD that increases defense chance by a considerable amount as soon as you know they're attacking you.

 

 

The problem is AP/Tactics is also really nasty now and you fight them very differently.

 

 

PTs/VGs have been the best PvP DPS in the game since releases.

[Astarica]

PT survivality is nothing fancy but it's not as low as people claim. If the top DPS classes wants a quick kill they'd look for a DPS Sorc, DPS Op, Sniper, or a non Darkness Assassin (if they still exist). Even compared to say DPS Juggs, having multiple guys doing Smashes is a bit more dangerous than the 1on1 capabillity of a PT.

 

PT, along with Snipers, occupy the 'pretty dangerous, but not dangerous enough to kill them first', and they're vulnerable, but not so vulnerable where everyone just sees 'easy kill' when your name shows up. PT certainly isn't like a Deception Assassin where as soon as someone sees how you swing your lightsaber, you're pretty much marked for death because you've absolutely no defensive capability to speak of.

[Varicite]

PT survivality is nothing fancy but it's not as low as people claim. If the top DPS classes wants a quick kill they'd look for a DPS Sorc, DPS Op, Sniper, or a non Darkness Assassin (if they still exist). Even compared to say DPS Juggs, having multiple guys doing Smashes is a bit more dangerous than the 1on1 capabillity of a PT.

 

PT, along with Snipers, occupy the 'pretty dangerous, but not dangerous enough to kill them first', and they're vulnerable, but not so vulnerable where everyone just sees 'easy kill' when your name shows up. PT certainly isn't like a Deception Assassin where as soon as someone sees how you swing your lightsaber, you're pretty much marked for death because you've absolutely no defensive capability to speak of.

 

Most people don't take the PT out first because the PT will KILL THEM.

 

Their burst requires the least setup of all classes, and even when they aren't bursting, they are doing awesome damage.

 

A PT is definitely pretty squishy, somewhere along the lines of a Sniper/Gunslinger, like you said. If you leave a good one alone, you can pretty much kiss your healers goodbye, though. : )

 

I know that you may not have encountered any good PTs on your server (just judging by some things you've said in the past about them, or how surprised you were to see all of the 700k+ damage screenshots from Pyros), but you really should not judge their potential based on bad examples.

 

A well-played Pyro is not only incredibly dangerous, but they deal the same insane amount of damage to every class regardless of armor. Well, except Tankasins in Dark Charge, thanks to the elemental resistance.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Varicite

[fungihoujo]

Marauders- annihilation, 12 second interrupt with root with gap closer- aoe mez- single target stun- channeled damage dealer hits far harder and can't be interrupted like unload- multiple snares

Or, they can go a spec with high damage and extra roots/control

-invisibility, temporary invulnerability

-can keep up the damage indefinitely

-strong group buffs for speed or damage

 

Pyrotech- no root, no snare, can only burst for a short while, no mez, gap closer is on 45 sec CD and unlike leap can be ignored with resolve, also can be prevented by some class abilities that might also prevent leap root- but not the leap gap closer.

 

 

 

Basically? Pyrotechs have good damage yes, but, nothing to keep alive, and little to keep you near them. They're a glass canon that's actually a glass canon.

[Numerii]

Yeah, they hit like trucks, even after the nerfs. The difference is, there are fewer of them, and they fold pretty quickly under focus.

 

Marauders/Sentinels are just plentiful atm and they have those sweet defensive cooldowns. Similar to all the complaining about Sorcerers/Sages before we were nerfed: they were everywhere and they had great escape tools. We never brought the level of damage that Marauders/Sentinels are capable of though, but hey, people got what they wanted lol.

 

Now, bow down to your new FotM overlords, peasants!

[Astarica]

Both Marauders and Tankasin are extremely good at preventing disengagement. That is, once one is locked on to you, the only guy you can attack is a Sniper in cover aside from your attacker. Trying to chase after anyone else will generally just result you getting snared/rooted and beaten to death without ever getting to your intended target since both classes have a massive array of lockdown skills that makes you pay dearly for trying to disengage.

 

Let's say Marauder A ses a PT, he attacks the PT. Marauder B on the enemy side sees a Marauder A chasing PT, so he can lock down Marauder A with his roots/snares. PT escapes easily since Marauder B can easily lock down his counterpart, and now Marauder B has a huge advantage on Marauder A for getting the jump on him.

 

If Marauder A attacks Marauder B first, the PT do not have any meaningful lockdown ability. That is, Marauder A and B will still be hitting each other with their full aresnal of attacks. Sure PT can contribute more DPS, but that's just your general advantage to have an extra person.

 

So the top two DPS specs are likely to mutually lock each other down, because if you chase anyone else, your counterpart on the enemy side will lock you down. Whoever you were attacking will easily make their escape, and now you're fighting your mirror with a significant handicap.

 

Honestly if Marauders/Tankasins agreed for a temporary truce where they agree not to jump each other when they're attacking a PT/Vanguard or any similar glass cannon type classes, you'd see all the glass cannon types destroyed immediately all WZs. But since no such truce exists you can't expect your counterpart to not jump you while you attack a glass cannon, so you might as well attack your counterpart first.

[zaknaphein]

If i find one of them on me, i snare/stun/mezz him and run coz his dmg is way too high, I hardly heal through it if i stand on my knees and have him attacking me. If he aint solo or at least one more player is assisting there's no escape.

 

So in other words pyrotech is a must in a premade, right now I think they have the top burst dmg in the game, a burst very often and easily done. That and the choke-ravage combo from a juggernaut-marauder especially when he has just used gore.

 

 

 

These are words from an operative who right now are one of the hardest healers to take down.

Edited April 18, 2012 by zaknaphein

[TheNegotiator]

Can you tell us? Could you tell us? Would you?

 

Seriously? Why would you even post something that has no basis in reality? It's remarkable. Bravo! Perhaps if you understood anything about the different specs, you might have an idea of what was going on. But that's fine, allow yourself to delve into the depths of blissful ignorance. And don't worry, when you lose, it isn't a lack of skill or gear, it's that the game hates you. You don't lose because you're not good, you lose because the class you fought is OP, even when it's your mirror class. Those damn Powertechs with their exact same skills as yours.

 

Maybe if you tried the shared tree between Vanguard and Commando, and you might understand why you're exploding.

 

But you know what? That's what the smart folks would do.

 

You're right but you're a jerk. You could have easily said "check the assault spec they are similar".

Edited April 19, 2012 by TheNegotiator

[Stovokor]

Perhaps it is yourself then? I've battled the top players on my server, and by far the hardest to survive are well-played Pyros. Exceptional Marauders are a close second, with Mediocre Pyros 3rd.

 

This is exactly the case on my server. It is a spec issue.

 

Also Pyro PT did not get nerfed, only the % and procs marginally changed. The nett effect is still the same, the combo of stun's + burst results in the highest pressure. While high level Marauders and Ops can put out obscene numbers if you let them, it is not that hard to kite these classes and buy time compared to dealing with the Pyro toolset. The damage increase from expertise and more severe nerfs to many classes means Pyro PT still thrive.

[Varicite]

This is exactly the case on my server. It is a spec issue.

 

Also Pyro PT did not get nerfed, only the % and procs marginally changed. The nett effect is still the same, the combo of stun's + burst results in the highest pressure. While high level Marauders and Ops can put out obscene numbers if you let them, it is not that hard to kite these classes and buy time compared to dealing with the Pyro toolset. The damage increase from expertise and more severe nerfs to many classes means Pyro PT still thrive.

 

They did get nerfed. They just still beat you. That's not the same as not getting nerfed at all. In a 1v1 situation against soft targets, they still perform similarly. It's like saying that Ops were never nerfed because they can still kill people. It's called "adjusting".

 

The % and procs are directly tied to their heat management; if they proc less, they overheat more, and burst less often. They can also no longer switch to IGC to Guard other players, or increase their mitigation because they will overheat w/out the PPA procs. Please don't try to talk about classes you don't actually understand.

 

Ops and Marauders also have far better defense or escape mechanisms than a Pyro, which really has none.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Varicite

[Agooz]

This is exactly the case on my server. It is a spec issue.

 

Also Pyro PT did not get nerfed, only the % and procs marginally changed. The nett effect is still the same, the combo of stun's + burst results in the highest pressure. While high level Marauders and Ops can put out obscene numbers if you let them, it is not that hard to kite these classes and buy time compared to dealing with the Pyro toolset. The damage increase from expertise and more severe nerfs to many classes means Pyro PT still thrive.

 

LOL Oh it was definitely a NERF. Back to Back Railshots that people were QQing about are not longer possible. Their Death From Above, also got nerfed with the shrinking of the radius, lower damage per tick, while adding more ticks, which means they are giving QQers a better chance to step away from it.

 

Pyros are certainly a good PvP Class, but no way above Marauder/Sen or Tanksins right now. If you disagree then you are playing on a really bad server. The fact that you rarely see more than 1 in any given WZ, should tell you something.

 

And for the people who like to exaggerate and talk about the 700k damage scores. Juggs/Marauders/Mercs/Sorc can all reach that with pocket healers. No pyro, no matter how good, can do 700k solo, relying on medpacks and no guard.

[pwnshoppe]

Difference is, If I get lucky on my marauder I can kill a dude in 3 globals. That will never ever happen on my vanguard.

 

Also, my marauder lives usually a good 30 seconds when getting focused and can slip away if needed.

 

My vanguard has to sit there and take it like a man.

[Hethroin]

Difference is, If I get lucky on my marauder I can kill a dude in 3 globals. That will never ever happen on my vanguard.

 

Assault/Pyro spec has better burst potential than Watchman/Annihilation. If you're not killing people in quickly on your vanguard then you must have speced tank.

[pwnshoppe]

Assault/Pyro spec has better burst potential than Watchman/Annihilation. If you're not killing people in quickly on your vanguard then you must have speced tank.

 

I can kill things "quickly" on my pt. lucky burst rotation is: 800+3.6K+2.2K+3.6K. Thats 4 seperate global cooldowns. That is what people are complaining about. It will never be enough to kill anyone. I also have 1 lame survivability cooldown -25% damage for like 8 seconds. I don't even count the 10% heal as it heals for only 1.6K.

 

On my marauder it looks more like this when lucky: 2.4K + 5.6K + (3.6K non-global) + 2.4K. That's 3 globals, and enough to kill some people or make them turn and run for sure. Sometimes its even higher than that. Not to mention my -25% 30 sec damage reduction 50% dodge and parry, and if needed another 99% damage reduction. I should also mention that all of these are on half the cooldown my vanguards sheild is.

Edited April 19, 2012 by pwnshoppe

[vimm]

Scoreboard damage done is not an accurate measure of the usefulness of a class.

 

Pyro rotation does AoE damage, Marauder rotation (unless Rage specced), does not. That's why you see Pyros doing more damage at the end of a match.

 

What AoE damage are you referring to?

[Varicite]

What AoE damage are you referring to?

 

Maybe he's getting Pyro confused w/ AP? I mean, the religious use of Flamethrower might make people think it's a "Pyro" if they don't know anything about PT specs.

 

Although why they'd try to pass it off as real knowledge is anyone's guess. <.<

 

Most of a PT's damage is single-target damage w/ heavy bursts coming from Thermal Detonator/Rail Shot combos, or back-to-back Rail Shots when lined up properly w/ the ICD of Prototype Particle Accelerator. The only real AoE comes once a minute, w/ Death From Above generally.

 

Some Pyros (like me) skip Thermal Detonator and use Explosive Dart instead (so we can take the 6 second interrupt cd in the AP tree), which does a lot less damage, but does indeed do an AoE. It generally hits for less than Wither from a Tankasin on a 15 second cd. In tradeoff, I don't have the burst capability of a full Pyro PT.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Varicite

[vimm]

Are you having trouble killing healers as a Pyro? Perhaps you might consider that you are, actually, the bad player.

 

For reallys? I wouldn't allow a pyrotech to kill my healer, lol.

[pwnshoppe]

What AoE damage are you referring to?

 

Our 1 minute CD 4.5Kish aoe (over 3 seconds). + sticky grenade I suppose. Maybe a pulse cannon thrown in.

 

I dunno I think marauders have respectable aoe as well. Smash is pretty pwn. That is on a pretty short cooldown and can do way more damage than anything my vanguard can do.

 

It's actually pretty misleading to view total damage done as a good indicator of efficiveness.

 

Good players usually have less damage done cause they don't give the enemy a chance to heal = more time respawning and out of play.

Edited April 19, 2012 by pwnshoppe

[Mancer]

Can't figure out why people think powertech pyro is so dominant. I've been running a pyro merc lately and he's a death machine in WZs.

 

I too run a pyro merc after 1.2. can you link your build? Any advice on build and rotation is greatly appreciated!

Edited April 19, 2012 by Mancer

[vimm]

Maybe he's getting Pyro confused w/ AP? I mean, the religious use of Flamethrower might make people think it's a "Pyro" if they don't know anything about PT specs.

 

Although why they'd try to pass it off as real knowledge is anyone's guess. <.<

 

If it's posted on the forums, it's a fact.

[anticept]

Scoreboard damage done is not an accurate measure of the usefulness of a class.

 

Pyro rotation does AoE damage, Marauder rotation (unless Rage specced), does not. That's why you see Pyros doing more damage at the end of a match.

Pyro PT (DFA) does about the same Aoe as Maras unless spec´d to(Smash) or you go spamming flame sweep all day ... and while DFA got nefdddDD most probs don´t use even that anymore.

 

The main reason for not whining about PT being op that they don´t have any OP talents that lets them survive longer than 14/16 ac´s in the game like UR/GBTF if they did then there would be more sniff sniff posts. You keep 10+ meter range from PT and you´re in no serious trouble against PT pyro all they have is rapid shots at that point if you´re an melee class go find an other class to attack.

[Stovokor]

They did get nerfed. They just still beat you. That's not the same as not getting nerfed at all. In a 1v1 situation against soft targets, they still perform similarly. It's like saying that Ops were never nerfed because they can still kill people. It's called "adjusting".

 

The % and procs are directly tied to their heat management; if they proc less, they overheat more, and burst less often. They can also no longer switch to IGC to Guard other players, or increase their mitigation because they will overheat w/out the PPA procs. Please don't try to talk about classes you don't actually understand.

 

Ops and Marauders also have far better defense or escape mechanisms than a Pyro, which really has none.

 

I'm not a soft target. I sit at between 17 - 18 k in Heavy Armor. I know what Pyro hit for pre 1.2 and I know what they hit for post 1.2. Operative nerfs were very noticeable, the very few Ops that adjusted continue to thrive but obviously they don't perform as before. Its a joke that you are somehow correlating Operative nerfs to what changed to Pyro Powertech. Reaching .....

 

There was QQ on powertech forum prior to them actually playing the new 1.2 changes but once it hit most just went silent & for the good players its business as usual. Heat management and prolonged fights is not the context of what i mentioned cause many classes have resource management issues. What I am talking about is the burst cycle they initiate when they start to engage targets . This is still extremely high &piles on pressure. And you are talking about heat management .

 

 

LOL Oh it was definitely a NERF. Back to Back Railshots that people were QQing about are not longer possible. Their Death From Above, also got nerfed with the shrinking of the radius, lower damage per tick, while adding more ticks, which means they are giving QQers a better chance to step away from it.

 

Pyros are certainly a good PvP Class, but no way above Marauder/Sen or Tanksins right now. If you disagree then you are playing on a really bad server. The fact that you rarely see more than 1 in any given WZ, should tell you something.

 

And for the people who like to exaggerate and talk about the 700k damage scores. Juggs/Marauders/Mercs/Sorc can all reach that with pocket healers. No pyro, no matter how good, can do 700k solo, relying on medpacks and no guard.

 

It just changed from chance based to more consistent timer. Overall taken with the damage increase from Expertise and other skills the change is negligible. The nett effect is Pyro PT still output tremendous damage & the pressure is unparalled.

 

Why are you even mentioning Death From Above which is a situational AOE skill that has no correlation to the frequently employed opening sequence burst by Pyro PT.

 

While not relevant, still amusing that the reference to Death From Above is flawed. Opinions on this change are mixed from players that utilize it. ( go and check ) There is no delay now & It works better now If you know what you are doing. Only scrubs employ it in an obvious situation / manner you have mentioned.

 

If i disagree with you on blanket statements it somehow has a correlation to my server LOL ??? Not every server has similar distribution of good players for specific classes. Get a clue man. I really don't have any issues with Tankassin's in warzone scenarios, but I acknowledge its a different story in 1 vs 1.

 

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=415146

 

Just did 300k in huttball as a Fresh 50. Pyro FTW

 

Yeah pyros are fine. I thought i'd get absolutely destroyed as a fresh 50. Managed to hold my own and put out some nice damage and kills considering I only have 1 bm piece (implant) and 3 recruit pieces (eat, main hand fun and head) cant wait for full BM

 

Don't understand the QQ about the 6s railshot nerf

Edited April 19, 2012 by Stovokor