Pro PVE Tanks. Need help discovering this threat issue

[Robpwnz]

My friend, a tank spec'd Jugg, is having issues holding threat in the new HM EC(stormcaller). Our melee dps is wayyyy too strong/ bursty which causes the tank to have major issues with aggro. It seems like every tank swap or beginning of the fight both the melee rip threat off the tank....He opens with his single taunt, (6seconds of threat) then uses his AoE taunt. But still has issues. Both the melee are using aggro dumps and vanishes consistently. I have no idea what his rotation is nor do I have that much knowledge about tanking. What could be some issues that we are unaware of???? Edited April 18, 2012 by Robpwnz

[Robpwnz]

This could be an issue. But lets pretend the guy doesn't open with the taunt right away since it wont build threat on its own? I will ask him.

[thorizdin]

He should make sure he has Guard on one of the melee DPS'ers. His starting rotation should be sabre throw, force charge, backhand, crushing blow (assuming he's deep immortal spec). At that point the DPS should be starting to catch up threat wise and he should use a taunt then. Intercede on the un-guarded melee DPS and then go into his normal rotation, using taunt/threatening scream as part of his rotation until he has firm control. He can also use Intercede through out the fight on the un-guarded melee(s) since its a threat dump on the targeted ally. He should NOT intercede on the melee he's guarding since that basically steals threat from himself. Edited April 18, 2012 by thorizdin

[Steel_Blackheart]

Ok first, taunt should not be used right off the bat, its a 30% increase over the top threat ont he target. I.E. if you pull with taunt you get a 130% of your own threat which is, nothing. but his start is fine, personally i throw a sundering assault in to build rage and get the armor debuff on him for more damage on my followup hits personally. Though on toth/zorn in the positional stage i use my 10m attacks while the boss is still getting into 4m range cause he is slow and i don't charge him in the setup.

 

Like he said, ALWAYS have guard on the melee, pick the highest dps (there are logs you should know) and guard them.

 

Gotta say, intercede is god, use it ALOT. BUT don't just use it on CD, thats honestly a bad idea depending on the boss fight/phase. What i mean is, there are quite a few bosses in here that have either a frontal cone or a cleave effect that you CANNOT place on a dps, or even point towards your range/healers. But on the other hand, there are quite a few times where you can intercede with impunity, toth/zorn tank switches, taunt>charge boss>intercede melee dps on the melee dps guy (i forget which is which). Tanks, when your on firebrand and you have the boss taunted off, toss two intecedes up on high threat people on your boss. Minesweeper you taunt a large amount. And on kephess, well if your MT your gonna be taunting so much anyways cause of the threat drops, use intercede when he is in air and cycle it through melee dps until he is out of that phase, at which point melee aren't gonna be pulling any more.

 

Also, wait your stealing from yourself when you intercede a guarded player? "While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat." That is LESS threat not TRANSFERRED threat.

[thorizdin]

Also, wait your stealing from yourself when you intercede a guarded player? "While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat." That is LESS threat not TRANSFERRED threat.

 

I need to test this to be honest, you may well be correct since the threat dumps don't have a duration. Its tough to see right now since none of the parsers really track threat over time for the whole raid.

[lordofdamornin]

My friend, a tank spec'd Jugg, is having issues holding threat in the new HM EC(stormcaller). Our melee dps is wayyyy too strong/ bursty which causes the tank to have major issues with aggro. It seems like every tank swap or beginning of the fight both the melee rip threat off the tank....He opens with his single taunt, (6seconds of threat) then uses his AoE taunt. But still has issues. Both the melee are using aggro dumps and vanishes consistently. I have no idea what his rotation is nor do I have that much knowledge about tanking. What could be some issues that we are unaware of????

 

Some issues:

 

Your dps need to learn how to adapt, until this Juggernaut learns how to tank.

 

This Juggernaut has clearly read some misinformation regarding Taunts, but didn't do any thinking for himself, and thus is using them improperly. Tell your tank to use his Taunts in conjunction with Backhand, or a full-stacked Crushing Blow.

 

Taunt CD = 15s

Crushing Blow CD = 15s

Backhand CD = 1m

 

These line up nicely, yes? Imagine that.

 

Also, I would seriously think twice about telling this tank about using Intercede during fights, since he botched Taunt usage, which is fairly basic stuff. I'm not trying to be mean, just honest.

 

His first Taunt should come around the 10s mark (after he lands his Leap), and should be coupled with Backhand. The next Taunt comes when Crushing Blow is ready to go for the second time (where it will have a full sunder stack). What I just said here is also determined by what order he opens with, and where Crushing Blow fits into that, so he should adjust accordingly. He should not need another Taunt after these two on any standard boss, but he can keep using them in this manner, if he wants to. No harm, no worry...until he encouters a boss where he needs to know what his Threat gen capabilities are, and keep them in line with a second tank. This is primarily why I advocate not using Taunts to build Threat, but the tool is there, so he can make his own choice as to whether or not to use it.

 

You didn't say what his spec is - good tanks can use hybrid specs (for progression content), especially if the rest of the group is good as well. If all of the above are not true, then he should be full Immortal. Again, not trying to be mean, but since your dps don't seem to know how to recognize and adapt, and this Juggernaut is botching Taunt usage, he should probaby be Immortal.

 

I hope this has helped.

 

Riôt

[Lymain]

Keep in mind that taunt is a 10% increase to your current threat on your target if you're within 3.00 meters. But if you step back to 3.01 meters, it becomes a 30% increase.

[Dacadus]

There's been some pretty good suggestions here but probably the easiest thing you can do to help your Jugg friend is to not have a tank swap at all this actually makes this fight quite trivial imo. Now, if you have a 3rd member of your raid (we use a dps sin but any class with a taunt is fine) taunt FB 2-3secs after DD is announced, let him get the Incinerate Armor debuff, and then have the original tank retaunt FB leaving your SC tank to NEVER have to worry about anything but rotation and moving slightly back for DD.

 

My rotation is similar to many posted already:

 

S Throw -) Charge -) Backhand -) S Assault -) Crushing Blow

 

I like to get my 5 stack up as fast as possible but after CB is when I usually throw my first taunt. Here's some numbers from our 16m HM SC/FB kill (I usually do over 500 but w/e):

 

- Pwncakes 142767 5.4% 484 dps

 

Crushing Blow 24481 17.1%

Ravage 23991 16.8%

Assault 16844 11.8%

Sundering Assault 14313 10%

Smash 12197 8.5%

Force Scream 11626 8.1%

Retaliation 10138 7.1%

Crushed 7804 5.5%

Vicious Throw 6258 4.4%

Vicious Slash 5384 3.8%

Backhand 3607 2.5%

Force Charge 2938 2.1%

Saber Throw 2449 1.7%

Force Push 737 0.5%

 

I also had 3 Maras pulling around these same numbers assigned to SC:

 

- Xeno 575546 13.6% 1393.6 dps

 

Bleeding (Physical) 186254 32.4%

Annihilate 102222 17.8%

Ravage 76487 13.3%

Assault 74484 12.9%

Vicious Throw 42158 7.3%

Rupture 21151 3.7%

Force Scream 20665 3.6%

Wind Buffet 14172 2.5%

Battering Assault 14100 2.4%

Force Charge 8688 1.5%

Cloak of Pain 6411 1.1%

Mortar Volley 5394 0.9%

Retaliation 3360 0.6%

 

After the first Defensive Systems your friend shouldn't have a problem keeping threat. Just have him pump his taunts into SC and S Throw, Scream, etcetc during this phase as he continues to kite the blue shields around SC.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Dacadus

[thorizdin]

Keep in mind that taunt is a 10% increase to your current threat on your target if you're within 3.00 meters. But if you step back to 3.01 meters, it becomes a 30% increase.

 

This is incorrect. You your threat modifier is increased to 1.3 if you're within 4 meters of the center of the mob. Threat decreases with distance. The other threat related number is the 1.3 compared to 1.1 threshold to pull aggro from one focus to another. If you're in melee range (4 meters from center) you only need to exceed the tank's current threat by 10% (1.1) while if you're further away you have to exceed it by 30% (1.3) which is why there is confusion.

 

Threat generation is inverse to distance while the threat focus threshold increases along with distance.

[Tharzon]

I think everyone pretty much covered it.

 

I typically Saber Throw - Charge - Backhand - Crushing Blow - Sundering - Taunt - Ravage

 

Usually I'll burn my AoE taunt somewhere next.

 

Neat trick for the fire tank there; we'll have to try that.

[Lymain]

This is incorrect. You your threat modifier is increased to 1.3 if you're within 4 meters of the center of the mob. Threat decreases with distance. The other threat related number is the 1.3 compared to 1.1 threshold to pull aggro from one focus to another. If you're in melee range (4 meters from center) you only need to exceed the tank's current threat by 10% (1.1) while if you're further away you have to exceed it by 30% (1.3) which is why there is confusion.

 

Threat generation is inverse to distance while the threat focus threshold increases along with distance.

 

Threat modifier? According to the combat log, my threat is equal to my damage (without Soresu Form or taunts, ect) standing right at the center of the mob (or any where else, for that matter).

 

You're correct that the distance is 4 meters from the center - I happened to be testing on the training dummy, which apparently has a 1 meter radius on its targeting circle. With that said, I can assure you that taunts do more threat if you're more than 4.00 meters away from the center of the target. If you think about it, they have to in order to make up for the increased "threshold to pull aggro" at range.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Lymain

[thorizdin]

I'll have to test this (not because I doubt you) but because this is counter to previously well tested results that show that threat generation being inverse to distance.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=341126

[Dacadus]

Neat trick for the fire tank there; we'll have to try that.

 

Yea it really makes the fight trivial.

[Gravesson]

I'm also having some issues holding aggro on this fight.

 

Generally I'm paired up with 2 Marauders or a Marauder/Sniper who put out an insane amount of burst damage. I haven't had threat issues like I'm having with HM Denova anywhere else. I'm Immortal spec (However have considered re-speccing to Hybrid due to the threat issues I'm having) full Rakata .

 

My rotation starts off as follows :

 

Saber Throw > Force Charge > Smash > Force Scream >Sundering Armor > Crushing Blow > Backhand > Ravage

followed by Retaliation or Vicious Slash and once cooldowns pop for the above mentioned I try to fit them back into the rotation.

 

What am I doing wrong? If the dps goes all out I will often loose aggro by the time Double Damage comes up or right after it's been placed on the 2 other targets (I am usually the tank that starts on the right side ) . Should I be throwing a taunt somewhere in there or changing my rotation? I worry about using a taunt too far into the rotation simply because I don't want taunt to be down after Double Damage (this is usually when the tank swap happens and if I don't have my taunt up things will get ugly. As it stands the dps is having to slow itself down at the beginning so that I can hold aggro until the tank swap happens.

 

I've had times where I've thrown intimating roar towards the middle/end of the rotation but it didn't seem to help much, they still pulled aggro after double damage occurred.

 

Looking for some good criticism. This is admittedly the first game I've ever played a tank class in so while I think I've done a pretty decent job as a tank, I by no means claim to be an elitist . I've never had these problems in any other HM or any SM. It's only happening in Denova HM (and more so on the 2nd encounter).

 

-GD

[Dacadus]

First off drop Smash and Scream til later in your rotation/priority list.

 

Your opening should start like this:

Throw -) Charge -) SA- ) Crushing

 

Make sure to have your top Mara guarded and tbh there's absolutely ZERO reason to tank swap for HM FB/SC if you have an assassin/pt/jugg in your raid that isnt tanking. As described in the previous comment just have that dps taunt FB a couple seconds after DD is announced then have the original FB tank retaunt it back. This way neither tanks need to stop their rotations and it makes the fight trivial. Interceding is fine on some fights but for FB/SC the last thing you need to do is to cleave your dps/healers so just don't do it.

 

Another note is to make sure your dps is using their aggro drops (you shouldn't be losing aggro anyways but every little bit helps). Once you hit your first Defensive Systems you should never have an aggro problem for the rest of the fight. Just kite the blue reticles and throw your taunts/force scream/s throw/ force choke/etcetc to continue building threat during the shield/add phase.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Sireene
use of retarded - PM'd

[Gravesson]

First off drop Smash and Scream til later in your rotation/priority list.

 

Your opening should start like this:

Throw -) Charge -) SA- ) Crushing

 

Make sure to have your top Mara guarded and tbh there's absolutely ZERO reason to tank swap for HM FB/SC if you have an assassin/pt/jugg in your raid that isnt tanking. As described in the previous comment just have that dps taunt FB a couple seconds after DD is announced then have the original FB tank retaunt it back. This way neither tanks need to stop their rotations and it makes the fight trivial. Interceding is fine on some fights but for FB/SC the last thing you need to do is to cleave your dps/healers so just don't do it.

 

Another note is to make sure your dps is using their aggro drops (you shouldn't be losing aggro anyways but every little bit helps). Once you hit your first Defensive Systems you should never have an aggro problem for the rest of the fight. Just kite the blue reticles and throw your taunts/force scream/s throw/ force choke/etcetc to continue building threat during the shield/add phase.

 

Alright I'll give that a shot. I have tried different things in the rotation because of the threat issue but still haven't had much luck.. Should I be saving them until the end of the rotation or following cb with those (fs/crushing)?

 

I have been guarding the Mara and they try their best to drop their aggro every time their cooldown is up. One thing that really erks me is the animation that Juggs have on all their attacks. I sometimes feel like it takes forever and a day for the animation to follow through , even though I'm queuing up the next attack ahead of time.

 

How about spec? Is Immortal spec idea? I've seen so many threads where people are using Hybrid specs. Midigation is never a problem for me. I have 24k hp (buffed) .

 

As for the Tank Swap, unfortuantly with our group makeup doesn't have another tank class in their. We are running with the following :

 

Juggs (me, Tank 1)

Assassin (Tank 2)

2 Mara's

1 Sniper

Sorc Healer

Ops Healer

Sorc dps

 

It's more often then not the same crew .

[defendurname]

First off, if you are talking about the 2nd boss in Denova then some of the suggestions here are moot.

 

Taunt is always used first because of the tank swaps that occur.....so its perfectly fine to taunt.]

 

Leaping a melee is abit dangerous: u have to make sure that he has just fired his attack so u can leap and then bring the turret facing away otherwise the melee get hit... if they have the debuff then I imagine they will be 1shotted.

 

This is only my experience in normal mode though: I have no idea if HM is different. However, the only time I have trouble with threat is at the start of the fight. Normally its not an issue. Then again, we normally have a sage on Stormcaller side who can pull the dps during the shield phase to reduce agro so maybe that helps too!

[Gravesson]

First off, if you are talking about the 2nd boss in Denova then some of the suggestions here are moot.

 

Taunt is always used first because of the tank swaps that occur.....so its perfectly fine to taunt.]

 

Leaping a melee is abit dangerous: u have to make sure that he has just fired his attack so u can leap and then bring the turret facing away otherwise the melee get hit... if they have the debuff then I imagine they will be 1shotted.

 

This is only my experience in normal mode though: I have no idea if HM is different. However, the only time I have trouble with threat is at the start of the fight. Normally its not an issue. Then again, we normally have a sage on Stormcaller side who can pull the dps during the shield phase to reduce agro so maybe that helps too!

 

HM Denova is a big difference. SM is a cakewalk in comparision .

 

My threat issues are only happening before the tank swap, after the tank swap happens it's smooth sailing. You don't have a very big window before DD happens, and right after DD happens it's time to swap tanks. If for some reason your taunt is down the other tank will be screwed , and it will likely cause a wipe.

 

I haven't had a chance to do Denova again since I first posted this but I'll try some adjustments once I do.

[defendurname]

My apologies then. I normally am a dps but I respec tank when we have a need and it felt pretty simple to me...but, as you said, that was story mode, and I can completely believe that HM Denova really sucks.

 

Especially now that I've remembered how hard Warlord Kephess hurts and thats just on story mode.....

[OlosBC]

I'll have to test this (not because I doubt you) but because this is counter to previously well tested results that show that threat generation being inverse to distance.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=341126

 

Threat generation does not change with distance. The amount of threat required to pull agro changes distance, and using wording like "inverse to distance" confuses the issue, making it seem like there's a scaling variable, which is not the case, its "in melee" or "out of melee".

 

If the tank is out of the 4m range, he would require 130% threat to pull agro, so taunt puts him at 130% vs 110% if he's in melee. So yes, taunts are more effective threat if the tankis at range.

[thorizdin]

Yep, I meant to come back to this thread over the weekend after I verified what you were saying and indeed you are correct. Taunting from outside of melee aggro range (not attack) does generate more threat because it works off of the threshold to pull aggro. I'll personally call that a poor mechanic but that's what's there at the moment.

[Kaisies]

Keep in mind that taunt is a 10% increase to your current threat on your target if you're within 3.00 meters. But if you step back to 3.01 meters, it becomes a 30% increase.

 

this person is correct, threat generation from taunt(s) and amount of threat required to have the mob switch targets is directly related to how far away you are from the boss. Have your melee stand back further, put taunt deeper into rotation (and use on c/d), and also taunt when you have the DD going on for max threat.

[Morsexy]

Its because this is a stationary mob and god knows what is going on with it.

 

 

I've pulled aggro at the weirdest times on this encounter on hard mode.

 

 

 

I tend to chalk this up to the same problem category as

 

"boss mechanic where he charges someone to put a debuff on them, one shots anyone other than heaviest armor class 1\20th of the time with a melee swing and hit that can't be programmed out for some reason"

 

Still not fixed years later. Or at least the desire to code bosses who do that kind of ability sequence has never gone away.

[Vid-szhite]

My friend, a tank spec'd Jugg, is having issues holding threat in the new HM EC(stormcaller). Our melee dps is wayyyy too strong/ bursty which causes the tank to have major issues with aggro. It seems like every tank swap or beginning of the fight both the melee rip threat off the tank....He opens with his single taunt, (6seconds of threat) then uses his AoE taunt. But still has issues. Both the melee are using aggro dumps and vanishes consistently. I have no idea what his rotation is nor do I have that much knowledge about tanking. What could be some issues that we are unaware of????

 

Make sure he isn't using Enraged Defense. That move reduces your aggro and locks you out of taunt. I know it sounds like a stupid thing to ask, but I really did run with a Jugg Tank today who was spamming ED on cooldown. He had no hate at all, and constantly dropped aggro to me and our full-rakata Sorc. Once we figured out he was using Enraged Defense, not realizing it was an aggro reducing ability, we corrected him and we stopped wiping to every boss fight in HM BT.

 

What, you thought we were in EC too? Hah!

 

(Aside: Seriously? I've tanked HM BT. It's not that hard to keep aggro! That poor sorc must have had a full repair bill from all the deaths).

Edited May 4, 2012 by Vid-szhite