How may DPS attackers should healer be able to defend against?

[iiell]

No, I suggest every damage dealing skill/combo should be 1/3rd of what a healer is able to heal on the same period of time (instead of 1~1.5x), but then stealth classes wouldn't be viable anymore.

 

Heck, no DPS would be viable anymore...Why have DPS if you can just heal yourselves through it and the Warzones?

 

Could you imagine 8 man rated Warzones with just 8 healers?

 

Novare Coast/ Alderaan = Hurry, cap two and just heal!

Huttball = Heal > Pull > Heal > Pull > Score

Voidstar - Nobody would get passed the first two doors!

 

LOL!

[LancelotOC]

I never really agreed with the implicit and ineffable connection between Stealth and Enormous Damage. I always thought proper design for stealth should play on the whole invisibility aspect, and not the "then I shove my foot up your ***" aspect.

 

To a certain extent, it still works in PUG Voidstar, where stealthers will give the attacking team a slight advantage by making it harder for defenders to know how to split up. IMHO what makes stealthing non-viable in Voidstar is that the two doors are a bit too close to each other and the spawn.

 

However, given that this is the design we have - and BW / EA is not going to take chances with anything remotely experimental - your point does stand.

 

This is why 1v1 still is and will always be an awful foundation for class balance, and the OP's question was misguided to begin with. What should happen is that a stealther SHOULD murder a healer 1v1. A better question is "how long should it take?" TTK matters.

 

It may be designed this way, for stealth to solo healers, but the design is still flawed since this is a PVP game and the objective is to kill each other. If support classes can be killed solo then no one will play one since they are already giving up killing people.

 

The time to kill would have to be something extraordinarily long...so long that the kill would amount to no gain for the team killing the support class. Again because if the class is solable or killable faster than that in a pvp game no one would give up killing to play one.

[jolleebindu]

1.2 healing changes are making healers pretty angry. And while some others (probably other classes) say it was necessary to nerf healers, some say that it was not necessary to do it so drastically.

 

While reading through posts on this subject I realised that I don't understand class balance as others do so I would like clarification on this issue:

How many DPS attackers (sent/mara as pure DPS) should a healer be able to defend against without dying (and of course without doing any significant damage to this DPS player)?

 

Solo healer ...... one or two?

Healer with tank guarding him/her ........ two or three?

 

This is very difficult to test as all of participating players would have be of same skill, level and gear. How many times do we find ourselves in such exact situation?

 

not being cc'ed/interrupted i would say 2, being cc'ed and interrupted by a single player<1, being attacked by a player that is not using cc/int's properly ~1, depending on attacking player's cd's and the healer's own - their goal, like ranged is to stay out of the thick of it as much as they can, using los to avoid being spotted, etc.

[jolleebindu]

It may be designed this way, for stealth to solo healers, but the design is still flawed since this is a PVP game and the objective is to kill each other. If support classes can be killed solo then no one will play one since they are already giving up killing people.

 

The time to kill would have to be something extraordinarily long...so long that the kill would amount to no gain for the team killing the support class. Again because if the class is solable or killable faster than that in a pvp game no one would give up killing to play one.

 

i think i'm misunderstanding this, I thought the point of a support class is that they are more powerful adding to a group than they are solo..

i.e. solo they should suck, but in group they should rule

 

I would expect the opposite for good 1v1 classes

i.e. solo they rule (1v1) but adding to a group they suck (i'm picturing 3 sents/marauders being aoe knocked back/slowed/whatever by 3 classes with such cc/slows/kb's)

[Xiahoufig]

I my opinion, I don't PvP much mind you (my PvP toon is a level 28 rank 23 sentinel), a healer should be able to keep himself alive against one dps, or at least last long enough to get help. Now I'm not saying it should be a stalemate every time, but if you have a healer and dps of equal gear and skill, then it should roughly be even until one or the other runs out of resources. If the healer outskills the dps, then they should never die and the opposite should be true if the dps is more skilled. If a single dps is able to take down the healer with no help it makes the healers worthless because you can just send one dps each to take down a healer. Any more than one then healing is overpowered.

[hairlessOrphan]

It may be designed this way, for stealth to solo healers, but the design is still flawed since this is a PVP game and the objective is to kill each other.

 

No, killing is a means to an end. The objective is to push a little glow ball across a purple line.

 

This makes (almost) all the difference in the world.

 

The other thing that completes the difference-making: class-based teamplay means theoretically the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

 

To make it clearer: your argument is more applicable to PvE than PvP - there is no objective in PvE other than killing the mobs. And yet, you would not advocate that healers be able to tank raid bosses, right?

[LancelotOC]

Well said. So then it does come down to TTK. In which case they seem to have misjudged the effect of current DPS assiting on players with current hitpoint maxes. I guess the fix lies in increasing everyone's hitpoints at the detriment of longer less exciting combat. I imagine they would also need to reduce the 8 sec cap time to something lower to compensate.

[RobNightfall]

One to two, depending on how good the healer is vs. how good the DPS player or players are and the healer is focused on healing themselves only. Past that, and healers become all important in PvP and while that's a fairly common way to have PvP set up, it gets old quick.

[Meanerr]

Sage here.

 

My answer is: ONE

 

If you are going to stand there and eat the dps (especially in light armor) then you should die and will die.

[lytlbyt]

Healers should be able to survive a single dps. By survive i mean a single dps should be incapable of killing a good healer, but by the same token they should also be able to completely lock down a healer and prevent them from healing their team-mates.

 

2+ the healer should die relatively fast, unless he's with a tank friend.

 

this.......qft

[Dzhokhar]

i think i'm misunderstanding this, I thought the point of a support class is that they are more powerful adding to a group than they are solo..

i.e. solo they should suck, but in group they should rule

 

I would expect the opposite for good 1v1 classes

i.e. solo they rule (1v1) but adding to a group they suck (i'm picturing 3 sents/marauders being aoe knocked back/slowed/whatever by 3 classes with such cc/slows/kb's)

 

The problem is that if a healer can't stay alive solo, the other team will just assign one person to take him out (while the rest of the team occupies everyone else). Similarly, if a healer can't consistently outheal a single DPS, the other team can pretty much ignore him (because in that case <8 DPS> vs <7 DPS + 1 Healer>, would be equivalent to <7.x DPS> vs <7 DPS> followed by <Surviving DPS> vs <1 Healer>.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Dzhokhar

[Bazzoong]

Since as a healer it rewards 4% more healing, at most, while lowering your primary and secondary stats, I'm not even sure it could make the least difference... Level 49 crafted gear has high chances of being better than recruit as a healer, let alone high grade PvE gear with about 25/25 more than BM each piece.

 

Taking 1800 damage out of a 18k hp pool or 2000 damage out of a 20k hp pool isn't that different, and I'm not even sure the bonus expertise gives to healing has a higher return than your primary stat, excluding crit boost the said stat provides.

 

Haha, ouch I spilled my coffee.

 

Yeah get lvl 49 crafted gear then get rakata gear, I`d love to have you on the opposing team.

 

I will strive on your tears, haha.

 

Get it into your heads they fixed pve gear it`s suicide to use in pvp now, expertise is awesome, bye bye over-powered pve gear.

[NuSeC]

As a jugg tank... If I am in a WZ I will ALWAYS look to see who the healers are so I can make sure I keep them alive. I will guard and taunt you until you give up.

 

If a healer will actually heal me while I am guarding them and taking damage I will keep them protected.

 

However I have had the gimped healer that would rather I guard them then die because they dont heal me and instead heal other team mates that are doing nothing but running around trying to 1vs1 someone.

 

If I get no heals while I am guarding you I will just let that Sent take you out and not shield because I am not going to take damage and die for some dumb healer.... It is the job of the tank to take damage and protect his teammate

 

BTW. it takes 4 dps to take me and the healer down while I am guarding. Between taunts, cc and interrupts A good healer pwns face while I am guarding them.

[cashogy]

solo healer should be able to handle 1 dps on them. the good healers still can.

 

a healer with a tank and supporting dps should be able to hold off 2-4 guys. the good healers still can

[fungihoujo]

The problem is the WZ design essentially called for healers needing the nerf- VS and Alderaan both could be defended too easily by healers, but that's a problem with the WZ, not with healers- and making healers take the brunt of the nerf hurts them in any situation where you're fighting.

 

This is the only game I've played where a healer is deadmeat with a single dps on them... often in a few seconds as there's nearly nothing that can be done to avoid being chain rooted/stunned.

 

Another thing is- many classes can't destroy a healer quite so well- even now, it might take 3 sorcs to take down a healer, while it may only take two ops or snipers, or one assassin or marauder. That'll make it imbalancing because while a marauder has killing a healer way, way too easy, and a PT, sin or juggernaut can easily lock down a healer by themselves and eventually kill them- four dps sorcs on your team in VS means zero chance of winning due to lack of burst- and for them, one or two healers is STILL OP even with the nerfs.

 

 

 

TLDR- BW has done a **** job with balance in 1.2, and it's not a surprise that 90% of the people saying 'no, it's fine, everything's balanced now' are marauders. Things are balanced after all when you're able to go 1v3 and win every time.

[JediDuckling]

1.2 healing changes are making healers pretty angry. And while some others (probably other classes) say it was necessary to nerf healers, some say that it was not necessary to do it so drastically.

 

While reading through posts on this subject I realised that I don't understand class balance as others do so I would like clarification on this issue:

How many DPS attackers (sent/mara as pure DPS) should a healer be able to defend against without dying (and of course without doing any significant damage to this DPS player)?

 

Solo healer ...... one or two?

Healer with tank guarding him/her ........ two or three?

 

This is very difficult to test as all of participating players would have be of same skill, level and gear. How many times do we find ourselves in such exact situation?

 

its pathetic a healer should be able to defend against about 2 players possibly. healers now cant even defend themselves against 1 player without proponing there death by popping all there cd's and then die.

 

my commando healer feels like im wearing toilet paper for armor i dont think im wearing plate anymore.

 

not only that my heals have been pretty much nerfed in half from 1.2 that donth elp eithers

 

there is also the fact that everyone is either a maurauder or pyrotech whch are crazy overpowerd right now

[Adzzy]

1-2:1

 

When free casting, they should be able to outheal the dps of 1 person, up to the dps of 2 people, when targeted themselves, if of equal skill it should be 1:1, where interrupts play their part.

[ItGetsAllOver]

... said the DPSer.

 

 

Again, if Healing and DPS are actually balanced then the formula would be as simple as x - y = 0 where x is DPS and y is HPS. In that situation, no matter how long the fight lasts no side would ever gain the advantage. The DPS would hurt the healer and the healer would heal himself reverting both sides back to square 1.

 

That is balance, and that is what DPS players do not want.

 

... said the Medicine Operative, you mean.

 

Balance is not a healer staying alive forever while a DPSer wails on them. A healer that can stay alive forever will be able to slowly whittle away at a DPSer, killing them.

 

All I would have to do is keep Corrosive Dart on a Sentinel and heal myself while he attacked me futilely until he was dead several minutes later from a DoT. How is that balance?

[Sickboy_]

healers should die and fast, from 2 players beating on them. They should also be forced to only heal themselves from one player beating on them, or they should die in a 1v1. The people wanting it to be like WoW, where a paladin or druid healer can easily keep themselves at 100% AND keep their team at 100% with 5+ people on them want to thoroughly ruin this game just like how WoW is ruined.

[ReflexMMO]

If we lived in a perfect world 1 healer would be able to survive against 1 dps if they had equal skill levels and gear in all aspects.

However living in a perfect world isn't the case. So through a Sentinel's perspective i think that even while the healer is damaging the DPS slowly while healing himself would give an advantage to the DPS. 1:1, everlasting fight.

Edited April 18, 2012 by ReflexMMO

[Crunx]

the fact that people think it should take 2 dps to take down 1 healer is just laughable.

 

if the healer is being targeted, he should die to 1 dps, and it shouldnt be rocket science. you SHOULD have to blow your CDs to stay alive, we have to use them to burn.

 

If you are freecasting, i don't see why healing shouldnt outscale dps, that is inherently the point of healing. But when you get targeted, you should die without help.

 

that is where we are right now. many healers QQ because they get targeted... well sorry, you have to be a viable target, learn to kite to force the dps into terrible positions in even fights and get teammates who help.

 

The only tweaking needed right now is that freecasting dps >>>>>>>>>>>>> freecasting healing.

[LancelotOC]

The PVP game may be about objectives but the PVE game is about lasting sustained encounter damage. You can't do the PVE without healers. There are endless DPS players. I strongly feel that in the hair splitting of who should be stronger it should be the healer/support. Let's pay mind to the elephant in the room.. the popularity of DPS classes stems from the widely agreed upon notion that they are more fun to play in PVP.

 

Make healers weaker people will not play them. Make DPS the weaker of the two, people will still play them. It is frivolous to argue against this imho and this constant dragging of this argument by DPS is hurting the game's longevity. The game will not last as long if it's just based on pro-DPS designed PVP. It needs the PVE content to be available to all for much needed variety.

 

Past that there are so many people at BW working on PVE content.. what do you all suggest we do with them and do with the PVE designated servers? Fire them and close the servers down? Very nearsighted to defend this as the course of action BW should take. Carry on though, I'm not one to squash people's dreams of a pro-DPS style PVP MMO game where support classes are the prey.

 

When I was younger I wanted everything on the planet.. not that I'm older that ambition has vanished. lalala

 

I wish it was simple ambition and not that the good of the many outweighed the good of me.

Edited April 19, 2012 by LancelotOC

[Anelitt]

Should be able to defend against 1, else would be grossly OP

[Lexster]

IMO, games tend to go the wrong way with healers. I understand that healers role is to heal, and that they need to spit out heals fast and efficiently. The problem really stems from the healers ability to heal THEMSELF so quickly and cheaply that they can outlast others smacking on them until the attacker loses power and dies slowly.

 

Self healing should have the reduced ability, not the ability to heal another.

[Monterone]

1 healer should be able to out-heal 1 dps in EVERY situation. NO healer should be able to out-heal 2 dps.

 

That means, whenever a dps jumps on a healer or finds one in open world, it should end up in a stale mate. Certain classes, like marauders that have a healing debuff, should be more efficient at taking out healers in a group environment but should NOT be able to just kill any healer solo.

 

I know people will say that's their job and they should be able to kill anyone they want to because they are uber dps, but that's all bs. There is no point to a healer if one can die in an uncoordinated attack, especially if attacked by only one person. Warzones should take strategy and team work, not a Chuck Norris marauder going around soloing people.