Need seperate WZ's for PuG's and Pre-mades

[dondiwayne]

You know what's funny?

 

People already complain about premades while there are only half premades to begin with, you can only queue with 4 people, you know?

 

Most so called premades don't even use Vent/TS, they are just a bunsh of more or less skilled players who group up.

 

While i agree, that if the possibility is there to match a half-premade against another half-premade it should be done, i will in no way agree that there should be seperate WZ for solo and groups.

You ask why?

1. Premades should be rewarded for grouping up it's a major point of MMOS, to socialise.

2. Premades shouldn't wait longer in queue just because there is currentely no other premade to be matched with.

 

People claim that 90% of the time they play against premades, so from the logic they most likely have a premade on their team too. So in fact they do not complain about premades but about losing. This is what Waldorf education has led to, people can't accept they are bad/worse at something because they were always told how worthful they are despite what they did but life doesn't work that way, you either win or you fail. If you fail at something, go on and look for a different thing you maybe good at.

I for example am terribad in FPS but i do not get to their Forums and ask for patches and tools to be on par with good FPS players.

 

Ask yourself the question: If i always lose even if there is a premade grouped with me, what am i doing wrong?

 

The common Puggy:

- runs with the Zerg without any clue why they are running in that direction

- Scenario A: The Zerg happens to capture the node and everyone runs away from the node, seconds later they wonder why they lost the node again.

- Scenario B: The enemy Team captures the node despite the PUGS effort. The PUGS try harder to cap this node and run into the defenders 1 by 1 and die, the defender is smiling at home and enjoys his immortal streak...

- In Huttball it seems most Puggys haven't found out, that there is a Ball...Most of the i happen to see a bunch of Puggys throwing all their damage on 1 single enemy while the Ballcarrier is jogging past them and asks himself: Wadda Faq r they doing?

 

PS: don't come up with the gear factor! I still see plenty of people who do not even have the respect to buy blue pvp gear. Why respect? I simply think it is disrespectful to join a WZ at 50 without having bought those items who drastically increase your performance and are obtainable for a minor amount of credits.

[eventidephoenix]

Return to Sender pride.

 

Carth was here

[V-Serp]

So what do you do about "premades" who are just a few friends who suck at PvP and aren't using vent, but felt like queuing together for fun? It is a MMO after all, and people play this game to play w/ friends a lot of the time.

 

"Um, sorry Ted, I can't do WZs w/ you because we'll have to play a bunch of professional premades..."

 

Is this what you're proposing the solution be?

 

The same solution the premades that roll over the PUGs tell the PUGs: get better gear, get friends, use vent and get better. You've already got the friends part apparently, so what's the issue?

 

I don't see how you can hold the two conflicting viewpoints that people need to group up, use vent, get better gear and "play better" but then make excuses for people that group up. Just to make it clear, I am being sarcastic and am parodying the anti-separate queue people with my first paragraph.

 

I'm in a PVP guild, actually it's my own guild. I have access to a lot of PVP players, and can easily get more that would likely be classified as top players from previous things I've been connected to. I can run premades, and used to when I wanted easy wins and easy comms. There were times soloing for me that I would get a really bad string of PUGs, so I'd use a premade to get my dailys.

 

But I really just wanted the 8v8 rated wzs, and usually don't really like running premades.

 

Honestly, I'm just looking to get the best games for the most people. I just don't see how the current PVP system is good for anybody other than the premades rolling through everyone. It doesn't seem like most people are having any fun, and I constantly see people drop out when up against a good premade. It doesn't help matters that frequently the numbers are also uneven, and the wz start with 5 people on one side, and can get even lower than that. I've been on the other side of that and I've felt bad for the lone guy on the other side myself.

 

To me the simple solution is to separate the queues and put the rewards back into the game. Heck, even without separate queues just having rewards back in might be enough, but with the PVP changes I'm not sure if PUGs can compete with good premades even with the rewards, I don't think most people will enjoy 5v8 matches getting rolled even if they got more for it.

[Darth_Acherus]

the simple solution is to just remove the PVP gear. Spawn everyone in equivalent gear and let skill, strategy and teamwork decide the fight.

 

Don't want to work for gear? Then stop playing mmo's.

[ThorgrimLutgen]

I do like the idea of removing pvp gear, but gear should not be bolstered in 50 pvp, make people work in pve and cooperate to get better gear to make pvp more interesting. It would get more people to participate in pve and more pugs would probably be running flashpoints and ops. This would build a much bigger community. Right now there is quite a divide in the community PVPers and PVEers. I know some people like to do both but PVP strictly guilds are pretty shut out from the guilds that do everything.

 

Why?

 

I PVP as I enjoy it, I do not PVE with the exception of the very rare HM, as I find the gameplay tedious and simplistic beyond words, it is simply not fun. If it was all SWTOR had to offer, I would not be here. We play in our leisure time for fun right? The day Bioware force me to one style of gameplay to allow me to play as I wish, will be the day I remove my card details.

Edited April 18, 2012 by ThorgrimLutgen

[ocping]

It's simple.

 

People who group up become more organized, and thus level up in GROUP ABILITY.

 

Forever-alones who keep queuing solo might be skilled or total noobs, but they gain zero experience in GROUP ABILITY.

 

l2p and get in a group

[Varicite]

The same solution the premades that roll over the PUGs tell the PUGs: get better gear, get friends, use vent and get better. You've already got the friends part apparently, so what's the issue?

 

I don't see how you can hold the two conflicting viewpoints that people need to group up, use vent, get better gear and "play better" but then make excuses for people that group up. Just to make it clear, I am being sarcastic and am parodying the anti-separate queue people with my first paragraph.

 

I'm in a PVP guild, actually it's my own guild. I have access to a lot of PVP players, and can easily get more that would likely be classified as top players from previous things I've been connected to. I can run premades, and used to when I wanted easy wins and easy comms. There were times soloing for me that I would get a really bad string of PUGs, so I'd use a premade to get my dailys.

 

But I really just wanted the 8v8 rated wzs, and usually don't really like running premades.

 

Honestly, I'm just looking to get the best games for the most people. I just don't see how the current PVP system is good for anybody other than the premades rolling through everyone. It doesn't seem like most people are having any fun, and I constantly see people drop out when up against a good premade. It doesn't help matters that frequently the numbers are also uneven, and the wz start with 5 people on one side, and can get even lower than that. I've been on the other side of that and I've felt bad for the lone guy on the other side myself.

 

To me the simple solution is to separate the queues and put the rewards back into the game. Heck, even without separate queues just having rewards back in might be enough, but with the PVP changes I'm not sure if PUGs can compete with good premades even with the rewards, I don't think most people will enjoy 5v8 matches getting rolled even if they got more for it.

 

So basically your solution is to put anyone who wants to play w/ friends in the exact same boat that you don't want to be in yourself, gotcha. All of this because you are tired of facing better players who communicate w/ eachother.

 

You don't need a premade to beat a premade; a pug who just uses chat to communicate and plays well is more than a match for most premades, in my experience.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/taugrim/b/314308945

 

At 0:55:00 you can see Taugrim's premade fighting our pug. We won, because we played well and communicated w/ eachother. We weren't using vent, and none of us knew eachother beforehand (aside from my fiance who queues w/ me), or were even from the same guild. I'm llil-ill btw, you can see me doing my thing in the video. He talks about us a little bit after the match a bit (the tank assassin, my fiance is lli-lill, the deception assassin), as well as one of our pug healers who did really well during the match. Hehe, if you look really close, you can see me guarding the ball carrier from inside the pit for our winning score.

 

I'm not trying to brag here (obviously, since this is lowbie pvp), it's just a pretty good example of a complete pug beating a decently-skilled premade. And it's from the POV of the premade, so it's kinda amusing. : ) We just had a group of puggers who knew what they were doing; that's literally all it takes.

 

Also, I have never said anything about puggers needing to group up, use vent, get better gear, etc. so I'm not holding conflicting opinions about anything at all.

 

As for "playing better", that's something I advocate for anyone, no matter how they choose to queue.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Varicite

[xdvesper]

Also:

 

My premade 3 capped a four man Return To Sender premade in Civil War right from the start. I know, not so unusual, nothing to be proud about, they probably weren't the best geared. The funny thing was, a random pug in our group was saying "Thank god it's a Republic pug, we have been getting owned by their premades all night." He wasn't even aware of our 4 man team in that match!

 

Classic PVP solo queue whiner mentality: if they win it's because they were good enough to win a "fair" fight and the enemy was a pug, if they lost it's because the enemy had a premade.

 

They never consider the possibility that some of their wins are against enemy premades, and never consider that many of their own wins are because there are premades on their own faction carrying them. They just think it's "impossible" to beat premades and that there aren't any premades on their faction to get queued with. Or they think that just because 4 people are from different guilds they can't be a premade.

[Rhyn]

To me the biggest reason pugs lose is because they do not work as a team and think.

Example

1. Not fighting on the node and allowing a ninja.

2. Not defending what you take with at least 2-3 players.

3. Trying for the 3 cap when you have 2 already.

4. Have no idea how to focus targets or mark healers

5. Go for the heavy armor players instead of the healers then light armor players

6. Don’t work as a team and spend more time fighting in chat than against the adversaries.

 

Yes expertise makes a huge difference. However, knowing your class and knowing how to defensed and attack is what counts. Remember knowledge is power and I hate to say it but there are a lot of players that have very little knowledge on how to play a WZ.

[fuzzDONTEVENTRIP]

I cant reply anymore to this thread because moderators think im being a big meanie. Good day

 

-fuzz

Edited April 18, 2012 by fuzzDONTEVENTRIP

[Roccobb]

Personally, I don't care if my times go from 2 minutes it is now to 30 minutes. There is nothing fun about constantly losing in a pug against a premade.

[Visue]

This pvp system is in dire need of separate war zones for pug and pre-made groups. On Dalborra, absolutely every warzone i have been in the past week has had a pre-made from one of two guilds all in full BM gear, making it near impossible to even have a chance at winning a warzone. I have had 0/3 for my daily for the past 6 days. I wouldn't be so annoyed if it was a once in a while sort of thing, but people in recruit-only bits of BM gear have no real chance of a whole team in BM gear. We have none of the organizational means that pre-mades have (vent etc) and much more disparate gear levels. IMO it should be hard-core pre-mades vs. other pre-mades and pugs against pugs. And before people ask why not make a pre-made of my own, it is a bit difficult finding all BM geared people skilled in pvp that want to make a pre-made with a random person, shouldn't need a guild group just to have a chance in hell of winning a warzone.

 

I know where you're coming from, and I agree with splitting them up.

[Didy_Kush]

I personally enjoy facerolling the useless imps on the dalborra server with my premade(S)

 

Rts ftw

[Visue]

I personally enjoy facerolling the useless imps on the dalborra server with my premade(S)

 

Rts ftw

 

What's fun about entering a WZ you know you're going to win? Wouldn't you rather have to work for your victories?

[Varicite]

I know where you're coming from, and I agree with splitting them up.

 

You don't need a guild group to beat a premade though. <.<

 

Your group just needs to communicate and employ better tactics than the players you're facing. Penalizing all people who want to queue in a group, regardless of their skill level, is just a poor solution to being outplayed by a team in PvP.

 

I'm on Ajunta Pall too, and most people tend to give up as soon as they realize it's a premade, or when the first strategy falls apart and they see it's going to be a hard fight. A team of players who know what they're doing and decide to stick it out have a great chance of taking on a premade (depending on their team makeup and gear, of course).

 

Of course, sometimes you do just get plain outplayed, but that should really be expected from time to time. What people really seem to be complaining about is having to fight good players while their own team could use a few lessons in objective PvP. I know that personally, there's usually a point in the match where I just say to my fiance "okay, there's just no way that this team is going to beat that premade.", and we just have to harass them as best we can.

 

That isn't really the fault of the premade, imo. I don't think they should be punished for it.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Varicite

[Didy_Kush]

What's fun about entering a WZ you know you're going to win? Wouldn't you rather have to work for your victories?

 

I get my decent Warzones when the dailies reset and the imps who no what to do actually play.

 

The rest of the day is free comms like the OP has stated 0/3 for 6 days

[KBSIP]

Cross server LFG so I can actually get in to a warzone outside of the 1-2 hour peak times of my low pop server. Don't care so much about premades vs pugs, smart pugs can still win as long as they read the enemy strat and counter.

[Neckpickup]

If you just like to pug, which has its charm, do so under 50.

 

There is a lot of ego free fun to be had under 50, and if someone destroys you, you can console yourself with the excuse that they are a higher level.

 

it might not be perfect, but it is a solution.

[MandraMoody]

@ OP

 

Premade groups don't want any sort of challenge, least of all from another premade. That's why you are getting all of the L2peeveepee responses.

 

Everyone wants an over-advantage and instant win on a stick.

[ocping]

@ OP

 

Premade groups don't want any sort of challenge, least of all from another premade. That's why you are getting all of the L2peeveepee responses.

 

Everyone wants an over-advantage and instant win on a stick.

 

You are wrong. Premades do want a challenge, and hence most of us were waiting for ranked warzones. Since it's not out, you puggers will have to deal with it.

 

How is implementing a separate queue any different from implementing ranked WZs? They are essentially the same concept which is to separate people who want a challenge and people who don't.

 

And FYI, even if you queue in a group of 4, it's not an instant win. The other 4 PUGs can have 2 total idiots and you'd still lose to an enemy team with 8 players that know how to play.

[Covalent]

You know what's funny?

 

People already complain about premades while there are only half premades to begin with, you can only queue with 4 people, you know?

 

Most so called premades don't even use Vent/TS, they are just a bunsh of more or less skilled players who group up.

 

While i agree, that if the possibility is there to match a half-premade against another half-premade it should be done, i will in no way agree that there should be seperate WZ for solo and groups.

You ask why?

1. Premades should be rewarded for grouping up it's a major point of MMOS, to socialise.

2. Premades shouldn't wait longer in queue just because there is currentely no other premade to be matched with.

 

People claim that 90% of the time they play against premades, so from the logic they most likely have a premade on their team too. So in fact they do not complain about premades but about losing. This is what Waldorf education has led to, people can't accept they are bad/worse at something because they were always told how worthful they are despite what they did but life doesn't work that way, you either win or you fail. If you fail at something, go on and look for a different thing you maybe good at.

I for example am terribad in FPS but i do not get to their Forums and ask for patches and tools to be on par with good FPS players.

 

Ask yourself the question: If i always lose even if there is a premade grouped with me, what am i doing wrong?

 

Every match should be a challenge for both sides because win or lose those matches are the most fun. The reward for forming a premade should be that you get to play with your friends, not that you get easy wins. And yes, a premade should be made to wait if no other premades are available. Shorter queues should never be a reason to lower quality. Granted this will probably require cross-server to work properly.

 

I agree with you that the percentages people come up with just don't add up, and that self reflection is good. However let's not exaggerate the effect a single player has on his win ratio. One player is just 12.5% of a team. It would take a lot of games to get statistical data on how that 12.5% is performing and even then faction imbalances (be it skill, gear or population) can easily skew the data.

 

Also please people stop trying to educate PuGs, it absolutely does not work. Your average PuG is bad and it will always be bad. You can lecture teamwork, gear etc. all you want but the PuGs will still always be bad. Even after 7 years of doing the same old battlegrounds PuGs in WoW are still terrible at them. And that game has far more educational resources available to them than ToR has. So if it was something that could be sorted with people getting better it would have happened by now.

[crrypto]

So what do you do about "premades" who are just a few friends who suck at PvP and aren't using vent, but felt like queuing together for fun? It is a MMO after all, and people play this game to play w/ friends a lot of the time.

 

"Um, sorry Ted, I can't do WZs w/ you because we'll have to play a bunch of professional premades..."

 

Is this what you're proposing the solution be?

 

Your post is self defeating. If those same premades of friends queued, there's a good chance they would also be playing premades of friends in addition to those super teams. You contradict yourself in a single breath.

[mordredz]

No? /thread...

[MightyHalo]

If you like pugging cancel your sub since this game is no longer for you.

[crrypto]

If you like pugging cancel your sub since this game is no longer for you.

 

I'm a rank 58 pyro merc and I do pretty well PUGing. I just had my first child and I'm lucky if I get an hour a night. I can usually finish my daily still. I win 75% of my PUGs. I try and communicate in ops channel, work together, and melt some faces.

 

I think this is an issue for lower population servers where you have the same premades rolling the same eight PUGs over and over. My server is medium pop and either there's a lot less premades on my server or there's a lot more PUGs.

 

Finally, I do see my fair share of premades and our PUGs will win sometimes. If it's a pounding they typically end the game as quickly as possible.

 

Perhaps it's because I get < 10 hours a week but I enjoy every minute I get in this stun-fest; even if I'm getting rolled by premades. I can always find one willing to peel off 1v1 and lose to me.