Can tactics hold its own against assault now in pvp? General questions.

[BigCheeseX]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801G0GZrsrrMrbzbs.1

 

Kicking this build and it ROCKS!

 

I switch between Ion Cell and High Energy Cell as needed, sometimes playing both in a WZ depending on who I am qu'ed with and what the game is dictating. Because the damage is STRONG, the Utility is GREAT ( Front Line Defense, HOLD THE LINE anyone, shorter harpoon pull and Cryo Grenade, and the ability to go Ion Cell and still have Good DPS while all the benefits of Defense, I really feel this build is THE PVP build.

 

I have run Full Assault (love the assault) and Assault Hybrids, STRONG DPS but squishy and no escape, a true glass cannon.

 

I ran Iron Fist for months and loved it pre 1.2 but it is low in the DPS area and Tactics with ION cell is now better IMO.

 

The spec linked above has it all and, as mentioned in a previous post, once you get in the rhythm of it you will find you DESTROY ALL!

[fedexfan]

The thing about Vanguard that made me like the class before launch was the "close-mid range combat". I said to myself no matter how long until game comes out im not gonna change my mind and go Commando, im gonna stick with what i decided months ago... Now, the thing about tactics is like some of the guys above said - consistent solid damage. That is because of all the crit and damage bonuses to elemental dmg and the bonuses to Ion Pulse specifically.. With Assault and my current gear which hasnt changed much in the last couple of weeks my highest HiB and AP crits were about 2.6k, BUT with High Energy Cell and 8/31/2 im able to consistently deal 1700 ion pulse shots which kills enemies way way faster, especially in 1v1 fights. Other important thing is the rotation and with ammo regeneration every 6 seconds it is no problem to go Gut->Fire Pulse->Stockstrike-> spam Ion Pulse forever, and then mix in interrupts, cryo grenade, and sticky grenade. Also i like just having "things" , you know... with Assault i feel i have 2 awesome skills but that's almost it .. with Tactics i have a lot more to do.. No need to start talking about Hold The Line, thats like one of the 2 most important things to it ...

[Saprezzan]

I'm enjoying myself as a Tactics Vanguard, if only they'd fix PC's snare - so annoying.

 

But I still think they should remove Hamstring off of that long skill chain, so we could actually afford to buy it.

 

Then I'd go with something like this :

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801G0hZrRrrRrbzbsZo.1

 

(assuming the leftover point goes into Hamstring).

[Keypek]

Well, I went assault over the weekend and am now torn on which to do. I was taking people down quicker with assault then I was tactics. And doing a lot more total damage thanks to the dots. I am sticking with assault until they fix all the bugs with tactics. AP was critting for 3.5-4k with power relic and hib/IP were regularly critting in the 2K range on some targets. I couldn't imagine playing assault before it got nerfed a couple weeks ago lol. Just insane.

 

There is nothing that is more awesome than putting AP on a marrauder, agent, or assasin and have them stealth to run away only to see an explosion 20 meteres away from you and watch a limp body fall to the earth. I lmao every time.

 

It is extremely squishy though. Am almost always top damage with assault though.

[TheOpf]

Check out the Bounty Hunter AP/Tactics guide in my sig. We have several of the builds you are thinking about already on there along with rotation guides and alternatives.

[Chocodaddy]

This is just such a stupid statement.... When I play tactics, i go neck and neck statistics wise with really good assault vanguards. I don't know why you think you can't put pressure on a healer as tactics... Because you can.... And many of us do. Just because you can't play the spec doesn't make it sucky. It just means it doesn't match your play style. Personally I suck at Mara... That doesn't mean the AC is weak.

 

 

Stop making ridiculous statements like tactics damage is "laughable"... It makes you look silly. The tree takes skill to play. And it's not a one trick pony gimmick class based in one ability. That's like me saying assault is a super easy class to play faceroll ftw! Three button spam lolfest!!! Lol anyone that plays it is an unskilled noob! There now I'm silly too. Obviously it's not true.... Though its much easier to play... And people who go from it to tactics without giving it a full week or two to get used to the build play style are the main people saying tactics suck.

 

 

Again... BOTH are viable. BOTH can pressure healers. BOTH can do good damage.

 

by laughable damage i was referring to the people who run shield specs, talking about there survivability when there damage is some what lack luster. im sure tactics can put out good numbers, can it do it as quickly and as fluidly as assault spec, no, but it can put out damage.

[TheOpf]

by laughable damage i was referring to the people who run shield specs, talking about there survivability when there damage is some what lack luster. im sure tactics can put out good numbers, can it do it as quickly and as fluidly as assault spec, no, but it can put out damage.

 

That is a complete farce. Assault is as fluid as chucking darts blindly at a wall. No one who ever plays assault calls it fluid. They call it burst and seriously strong damage if you can time your SS and HiB to hit at right about the same time as Plastique.

 

You seriously have the worst taste in your mouth for AP/Tactics, and my guess is because you can't play it well. AP does not play anything like Assault, but everyone who has played AP/Tactics for a certain period of time will say it plays much more fluidly than Assault.

 

The only thing Assault/Pyro does differently is it allows you to have a more mobile Burst. The Burst is approximately the same over the same period of time.

 

In every test done in Spreadsheets and dummy testing, using Optimum heat management, rotations, uptime on boss and no lag, Pyro/Assault is ahead in dps by a total of 4.7 percent. However, Any mistake made in your rotation, heat management, or not using Inciendiary Round after it ticks off will cost you over 100dps. Tactics has a much more forgiving rotation and more fluid build. If you drop Gut or mess up your rotation you might lose 40-50 dps. This makes it a much smoother spec in terms of optimizing, and allows for an easier rotation when switching. The only thing that will kill Tactics dps is if PG/PFT is interrupted.

 

Unfortunately, Tactics is at a disadvantage until the slow is fixed in pvp in terms of optimizing their burst. Your failure to understand anything not issued out of your mouth is the main problem with your comments.

[exphryl]

Just wanted to add I've been seeing some people on my server running 31 AP with Ion Cell. i still can not wrap my ahead around the purpose of this build.

 

It seems they overheat fast then become a free kill.

 

Not sure if I'm missing something in the spec here that people that do run Ion with that could enlighten me. (Wouldn't it make more sense to get rid of Immolate and just get the Shield > Ammo back in Shield?)

[TheOpf]

Just wanted to add I've been seeing some people on my server running 31 AP with Ion Cell. i still can not wrap my ahead around the purpose of this build.

 

It seems they overheat fast then become a free kill.

 

Not sure if I'm missing something in the spec here that people that do run Ion with that could enlighten me. (Wouldn't it make more sense to get rid of Immolate and just get the Shield > Ammo back in Shield?)

 

Pre 1.2 Ion Cell was run to give yourself a bit more survivability while gettting the slow. However Ion Cell is currenty broken and the dps is way down on it. People who still preach it's usage are shortchanging and effectively neutering their dps to live for less than 5 seconds more. The mitigation difference is almost nil without the additional points from deep in the Shield tree.

 

In 1.2 there are 3 ways to effectively play AP/Tactics - Norse, Tibetan Candle and deep AP/Tac with HEC. Tibetan Candle is essentially the 31 pt AP tree with the Vanguard version of CGC. Technically it is the top dps based on spreadsheets and simulaters out of all the 31 pt AP builds. I am testing it today to find out about it's heat issues.

[Fdzzaigl]

What I would like to see in the tactics tree is a slight change or buff to the "Serrated Blades" talent.

Spending 3 points for a meagre 15% damage increase on a (mediocre) dot is kind of a waste imo, but you still need to do it if you want the 30% slow.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Fdzzaigl

[Fafryd]

I would like to see Gut give back a % of damage done as health regen. It would add something interesting to both Gut and Tactics.

[Canmore]

gut has less damage than id expect a skill to have for its tier , but theres something wholesome about sticking your vibro knifr into a sith =p

[TheOpf]

I would like to see Gut give back a % of damage done as health regen. It would add something interesting to both Gut and Tactics.

 

I think you would then have the level of complaints that Marauders are currently being hit with. We have some of the hardest hitting burst in the game. Gut is actually not bad. If used correctly it's about 12 percent of your total damage.

[Chocodaddy]

That is a complete farce. Assault is as fluid as chucking darts blindly at a wall. No one who ever plays assault calls it fluid. They call it burst and seriously strong damage if you can time your SS and HiB to hit at right about the same time as Plastique.

 

You seriously have the worst taste in your mouth for AP/Tactics, and my guess is because you can't play it well. AP does not play anything like Assault, but everyone who has played AP/Tactics for a certain period of time will say it plays much more fluidly than Assault.

 

The only thing Assault/Pyro does differently is it allows you to have a more mobile Burst. The Burst is approximately the same over the same period of time.

 

In every test done in Spreadsheets and dummy testing, using Optimum heat management, rotations, uptime on boss and no lag, Pyro/Assault is ahead in dps by a total of 4.7 percent. However, Any mistake made in your rotation, heat management, or not using Inciendiary Round after it ticks off will cost you over 100dps. Tactics has a much more forgiving rotation and more fluid build. If you drop Gut or mess up your rotation you might lose 40-50 dps. This makes it a much smoother spec in terms of optimizing, and allows for an easier rotation when switching. The only thing that will kill Tactics dps is if PG/PFT is interrupted.

 

Unfortunately, Tactics is at a disadvantage until the slow is fixed in pvp in terms of optimizing their burst. Your failure to understand anything not issued out of your mouth is the main problem with your comments.

ok back to the original question can tatics hold its own against AS in pvp.

1) spreadsheets and dummy tests mean absolutely nothing in pvp, they never have. I should not have to explain why. and throwing random numbers and percentages out there without the bases to back them up makes you seem like an idiot.

2) if i go by what other posts have been made. then one would assume that AS has higher mobility, much faster burst set up time, and some decent burst from range, but with some slight heat/ammo problems. while tactics has lesser mobility, due to its bread and butter ability requiring you to be stationary, (which also stands a chance of being interrupted), a longer burst set up time and little to no burst from range. but when the burst is set up its equals out to the same as AS. as well as having somewhat better sustained damage for the people that run with high energy cell talented.

 

honestly with the information we know, not ******** parse logs/ spreadsheets/ percentages on dummies/ test mobs that people some how always have laying about to randomly pull out there *** when arguments likes this show up, based on what we know it would seem to me that, that while tatics can bring something to the table, it doesn't bring quite as much As Assault . can tactics be successful, yes. is it the Powerhouse that warranted massive QQ like assault spec no.

[ShiroRX]

Always felt Assault VG/Pyro PT was perhaps the best pvp dps spec in the game. Still do. Highest tier damage dealing potential, a lot of protection if you know how to taunt, and no casting so very difficult to disrupt (compared to mercs/commandos/sages/sorcs), the general utility of ranged positioning and having a gun (a gun in this game is about 1000x better than a lightsaber).

 

and of course harpoon.

 

Sure, many classes have these abilities, but Assault VG as a whole is greater than the sum of those parts. This is gonna become more evident in Ranked. Luckily people have been watching good PT and VG players since day 1 destroy and still no one plays them. (Vanguard was almost tied with Scoundrel for least played AC, Powertech not that far ahead).

 

 

Now don't get me wrong, I think tactics is very good, and will absolutely have a place because Hold The Line is just so insanely good, but in terms of general effectiveness in a coordinated (or even a pug) situation, I don't know how they're gonna do more than a well played Assault.

Edited April 24, 2012 by ShiroRX

[Philosomanic]

In my opinion, Tactics is a great spec for PvP. It's not just about how much damage you can put out, where Assault wins slightly. Tactics specializes in being in your face applying pressure, and they're incredibly hard to get rid of. They have a passive in-combat run speed boost, Hold the Line, interrupts on a 6s CD (other classes have 8s or 12!), and grapple on a 35s CD.

 

Tactics Vanguards are relentless and unstoppable. They run faster than you and have range, so you can't kite them. They can ignore your slows and knockbacks with Hold the Line. They'll reel you in with Harpoon and crush your face. They're highly mobile fast responders, and absolutely deadly for taking down ranged classes.

 

Even though they have slightly lower damage, they make up for it with tenacity. I think people severely underestimate Tactics. Heck, if you stun them, their defenses actually go up. It's not all about the DPS, people.

[TheOpf]

ok back to the original question can tatics hold its own against AS in pvp.

1) spreadsheets and dummy tests mean absolutely nothing in pvp, they never have. I should not have to explain why. and throwing random numbers and percentages out there without the bases to back them up makes you seem like an idiot.

 

Spreadsheets and parses do not take into account human error. They are designed to help optimize rotations and builds. You will never be able to duplicate a perfect rotation in pvp, but it helps us identify the difference between a bad attack and a good one, and how much each attack can help you over a certain period of times. Your failure to grasp the basic concept of a parser or spreadsheet simply means you probably struggled with Algebra because x is not a real number. Calling me an idiot while completely ignoring the concept or the fact that I have been AP/Tactics biggest proponent recently and claiming spreadsheets are random numbers is both uninformed and a bit ignorant.

 

 

2) if i go by what other posts have been made. then one would assume that AS has higher mobility, much faster burst set up time, and some decent burst from range, but with some slight heat/ammo problems. while tactics has lesser mobility, due to its bread and butter ability requiring you to be stationary, (which also stands a chance of being interrupted), a longer burst set up time and little to no burst from range. but when the burst is set up its equals out to the same as AS. as well as having somewhat better sustained damage for the people that run with high energy cell talented.

 

honestly with the information we know, not ******** parse logs/ spreadsheets/ percentages on dummies/ test mobs that people some how always have laying about to randomly pull out there *** when arguments likes this show up, based on what we know it would seem to me that, that while tatics can bring something to the table, it doesn't bring quite as much As Assault . can tactics be successful, yes. is it the Powerhouse that warranted massive QQ like assault spec no.

 

Assault pre-1.2 had a crazy infinite burst, now it is more inline with AP/Tactics. The only thing that was holding tactics back pre 1.2 was the massive spam fest to PFT/PG and the lack of a slow. They helped fix both of those, and being with 4.7 percent of optimal Pyro performance is really good. If you want real life examples, i have friends who top both pve and pvp charts as AP. On my server the only Pyro's who can out damage me in pvp are the ones that outgear me.

 

Right now Tactics is broken, but still viable.

 

You have once again missed the point completely. Assault does not offer more utility.

 

Assault: More Mobile Burst

Tactics: Better mobility and heat management

 

That's the only difference, their total burst is approximately the same. Over 5 minutes both will do the same amount of damage, the only difference is Utility versus Mobile Burst. I perfer AP/Tactics because I like being able to be fully mobile, and then being stationary for my burst. The playstyle fits my style of play. The only point I agree is without the fix to PG Tactics is seriously at a disadvantage in terms of being able to pump out their burst.

 

Please stop confusing pre-1.2 Assault with current Assault.

[TheOpf]

In my opinion, Tactics is a great spec for PvP. It's not just about how much damage you can put out, where Assault wins slightly. Tactics specializes in being in your face applying pressure, and they're incredibly hard to get rid of. They have a passive in-combat run speed boost, Hold the Line, interrupts on a 6s CD (other classes have 8s or 12!), and grapple on a 35s CD.

 

Tactics Vanguards are relentless and unstoppable. They run faster than you and have range, so you can't kite them. They can ignore your slows and knockbacks with Hold the Line. They'll reel you in with Harpoon and crush your face. They're highly mobile fast responders, and absolutely deadly for taking down ranged classes.

 

Even though they have slightly lower damage, they make up for it with tenacity. I think people severely underestimate Tactics. Heck, if you stun them, their defenses actually go up. It's not all about the DPS, people.

 

BINGO! THIS MAN HAS IT. You trade Mobile burst for mobility and steady pressure.

[ShiroRX]

You say Assault slightly out damages it, but is it so? The slightly I mean, because it seems more than slightly. Freely admit I haven't seen any great players pick up tactics/AP on Mandalore, however. Edited April 24, 2012 by ShiroRX

[Philosomanic]

You say Assault slightly out damages it, but is it so? The slightly I mean, because it seems more than slightly.

 

There's no way to know exactly. That's based purely on personal experience. Here's the problem with DPS parsing:

 

There is no "best" class in this game. There simply isn't. There is, however, a best class/spec for any given player. That would be the spec that most closely fits how you like to play, the one that feels most natural and smooth to you.

 

So if we have someone who is a natural Assault player who parses both Assault and Tactics, he's going to come to the conclusion that Assault is better. This might be because Assault really is, but it also might be because the Assault rotation comes more naturally to him. Even slight rotation problems can lead to significant DPS drops.

 

The only thing we can say with any surety is that Assault and Tactics are reasonably close. Let's say that Assault was hypothetically better by a small margin (<75 DPS). It would still be better for you to play Tactics if that's what feels natural to you. So don't go by which supposedly has better DPS, go by what feels best when you play it.

[TheOpf]

You say Assault slightly out damages it, but is it so? The slightly I mean, because it seems more than slightly. Freely admit I haven't seen any great players pick up tactics/AP on Mandalore, however.

 

Tactics is still broken so you will see fewer of them. Switching from Pyro to AP is tough. It took me about a week to get used to the different playstyle. Taugrim of taugrim.com recently switched from Ironfist to Norse build, and he even stated it takes sometime to get used to the change and learning to setup PFT/PG.

 

The dps difference between the two specs is 4.7 percent. It's about 100 dps between standard Pyro and Norse build AP/Tactics.

 

There's no way to know exactly. That's based purely on personal experience. Here's the problem with DPS parsing:

 

There is no "best" class in this game. There simply isn't. There is, however, a best class/spec for any given player. That would be the spec that most closely fits how you like to play, the one that feels most natural and smooth to you.

 

So if we have someone who is a natural Assault player who parses both Assault and Tactics, he's going to come to the conclusion that Assault is better. This might be because Assault really is, but it also might be because the Assault rotation comes more naturally to him. Even slight rotation problems can lead to significant DPS drops.

 

The only thing we can say with any surety is that Assault and Tactics are reasonably close. Let's say that Assault was hypothetically better by a small margin (<75 DPS). It would still be better for you to play Tactics if that's what feels natural to you. So don't go by which supposedly has better DPS, go by what feels best when you play it.

 

Once again, you stated it best.

Edited April 24, 2012 by TheOpf

[ShiroRX]

Don't want it to seem like I'm anti-tactics/ap or something, just wanted to state that before my next question.

 

Is that 4.7% difference on dummy tests? The reason I'm asking is because in pvp it seems difficult to really unload pulse cannon effectively whenever the proc is up, people don't like standing in our AOEs. Imagining this is harder when they see you point blank about to unload it instead of standing 20-30 yds back and launching mortar.

 

Here's a thought experiment. I wonder how tactics would do with Storm and Shield w/ Hold the Line.

 

Tactics and my brain may just not sync up, that's very possible.

Edited April 24, 2012 by ShiroRX

[TheOpf]

Don't want it to seem like I'm anti-tactics/ap or something, just wanted to state that before my next question.

 

Is that 4.7% difference on dummy tests? The reason I'm asking is because in pvp it seems difficult to really unload pulse cannon effectively whenever the proc is up, people don't like standing in our AOEs. Imagining this is harder when they see you point blank about to unload it instead of standing 20-30 yds back and launching mortar.

 

Here's a thought experiment. I wonder how tactics would do with Storm and Shield w/ Hold the Line.

 

Until the slow is fixed on Pulse Cannon you will have to use it Situationally. When someone isnt' looking, or you have someone facing you meleeing, or you can stun and unleash the wrath. HtL is great when used in conjunction with it.

 

4.7 percent is optimal rotation via spreadsheet parsers. So it's really about which you can play better.

[Dksaller]

Haven't read most of this thread so I'm not sure if this has been posted but here is my build

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZrsrrobckdsZb.1

 

It forgoes the pulse cannon talents (besides Tactical Tools for the harpoon CD reduction). I get good numbers and don't even put PC into my rotation obviously. PC isn't required for Tactics builds to do competitive damage in WZs.

[exphryl]

Spreadsheets and parses do not take into account human error. They are designed to help optimize rotations and builds. You will never be able to duplicate a perfect rotation in pvp, but it helps us identify the difference between a bad attack and a good one, and how much each attack can help you over a certain period of times. Your failure to grasp the basic concept of a parser or spreadsheet simply means you probably struggled with Algebra because x is not a real number. Calling me an idiot while completely ignoring the concept or the fact that I have been AP/Tactics biggest proponent recently and claiming spreadsheets are random numbers is both uninformed and a bit ignorant.

 

 

While a bit off topic on an AP Build, I feel Parsers/Spreadsheets DO mean very little in PvP. In PvE you have a scripted environment where you know what a boss will do, when he'll do it, and what will happen. Thus from that you can build an approriate rotation and maximize the dps in your build.

 

However, in a PvP environment two entirely different players, playing the same class, can play two entirely different ways where your rotation no longer works and you have to think on the fly. It's a simple concept of why Player A is > Player B. PvP Is more about reaction to the events around you and what the other player or players are doing than a set rotation.

 

Don't let me give the wrong impression, In games at time i'll spend hours at a time on a target dummy parsing and re-parsing over and over to get a consistent result. But again that's more so in PvE..

 

Assault pre-1.2 had a crazy infinite burst, now it is more inline with AP/Tactics. The only thing that was holding tactics back pre 1.2 was the massive spam fest to PFT/PG and the lack of a slow. They helped fix both of those, and being with 4.7 percent of optimal Pyro performance is really good. If you want real life examples, i have friends who top both pve and pvp charts as AP. On my server the only Pyro's who can out damage me in pvp are the ones that outgear me.

 

Any class can top PvP Charts =/ Not a good basis for an argument. (I've seen some off the wall specs of some classes achieve that). The thing with AP is it has more AOE damage than Pyro does, so theoretically it SHOULD always out "Damage Done" a Pyro. I can count the amount of times I use FT as Pyro in a day on one hand. From that pretty much all my results are single target damage.

 

Please stop confusing pre-1.2 Assault with current Assault.

 

Results from Pre 1.2 and Current Assault/Pyro are pretty much the same. If anything from the Expertise change current 1.2 Assault out edges Pre 1.2 Assault/Pyro.

 

The only change is you can't get the rare Rail Shot > Flame Burst > Rail Shot > Rocket PUnch > Rail Shot type combos anymore and it requires a bit more "finesse" to manage your Ammo/Heat. It also means at least for me, if I am attacking a high priority target I need to kill like a Healer I go in with most available resources where before the proc change I could be at Half capacity and still have enough to take down who I wanted.

Edited April 25, 2012 by exphryl