The end of the arguement. Is SWTOR in decline? Can it be saved?

[JerokTalram]

I actually enjoy looking at server loads because I deal with it at work constantly.

 

Its educational for me to see what other companies are doing.

 

I hate to say it but the way SWTOR designed their servers is very unimpressive. they seem to have a cap around 1.5k-2k users, which is sad IMO. I think we run 5k users per and i KNOW they have more money then us.

 

They should be double the size IMO. 4-5k servers. Trust me when I say that MMOs aren't as demanding on servers as people think they are.

 

What are you a level 1 tech who has to call mommy, er level 2 every time there's a problem? If you are in the industry like you say you are you should know that you are comparing apples to unknowns. Just because your server supports 4-5K users doesn't mean that theirs can. First of all, you don't even know if the load created by each user is the same in each case. Second you don't know the hardware BW is using. Maybe they decided to go with more lower end machines (or maybe virtual machines) then you using. Maybe they are using low-power servers to be ecologically friendly. Not every server or virtual machine is going to be the same and thus can't handle the same load. I use to design beowulf clusters for a living. Big Iron is not always best and rarely the cheapest solution.

Edited April 19, 2012 by JerokTalram

[evildestroyer]

It looks to me Bioware could care less about us.

 

They are making pvp worse, half the servers are ghost towns and the game runs like crap on many PCs. PCs that can run Crysis or BF3 on highest settings struggle with this game at times.

 

I think what we need a merges and transfers that will help many people but i doubt thats gonna happen soon. Bioware needs to learn how to do pvp right too. It will be funny so see how badly this game will get hurt by GW2 and D3.

[KonstantinT]

I canceled a few days ago, but still playing until sub runs out. Might even renew if i get bored when it runs out. I play less now though. Just doesn't seem like a whole lot to do other than warzones for mostly a pvp player like me.

 

BTW I tried BF3 3-4 months ago. Log in first time, pick server, spawn, 15 seconds later dead. Respawn, 10 seconds later dead, respawn 20 seconds later dead. Repeat for about 20 min. Uninstall game.

 

Funny, last battlefield I played was battlefield 2, (as well as 1942 and Vietnam) absolutely loved those games. BF3 is a giant step back. Somewhat pretty graphics, but gameplay is somehow totally different and ruined for me personally. Maybe they tailored a bit too much to the console generation I don't know... I enjoyed running a bit before getting into the fight, made for some nice standoffs, thrown in the middle of it at random points, by yourself is just a bad design decision.

 

SWTOR has some promise if they get on the pvp portion of it QUICK. Like next big patch kind of quick. Something big like new Ilum that actually has a point to it, or some other way to do open world pvp a bit more like DAOC/WAR type. That's just me though.

 

PS - healing reduction was a pretty bad idea in 1.2 as well. I still heal same numbers on my healing operative, but people drop like flies. Can't keep anyone alive. Not fun. I feel it on my powertech and when OP is dps specced to, the lack of healing that is. Anyways, other than that 1.2 wasn't bad.... though again could have removed random stun/puke/dmg from the plague, it's annoying.

Edited April 19, 2012 by KonstantinT

[DarthVindictus]

Can't wait till April 27th...open beta for GW2

 

Not really open so to say, cause only prepurchases and random draw are going to be in it.. but it'll be the first beta most people will get a chance to play it.

 

Can't wait myself, I was really hoping for this weekend however, GW1's 7th anniversary is that weekend, kinda feel bad for the live team guy that makes an event for the 7th anniversary only to present it to ghost towns.

[Oddzball]

What are you a level 1 tech who has to call mommy, er level 2 every time there's a problem? If you are in the industry like you say you are you should know that you are comparing apples to unknowns. Just because your server 4-5K users doesn't mean that theirs can. First of all, you don't even know if the load created by each user is the same in each case. Second you don't know the hardware BW is using. Maybe they decided to go with more lower end machines (or maybe virtual machines) then you using. Maybe they are using low-power servers to be ecologically friendly. Not every server or virtual machine is going to be the same and thus can't handle the same load. I use to design beowulf clusters for a living. Big Iron is not always best and rarely the cheapest solution.

 

You wish. Nice to see the hostility though. If I had to guess, BW is probably using virtual machines. And you should know the load isn't the same for any user ever for the most part. It depends on what they are doing.

 

MMO servers like SWTOR, WoW, Rift are all the same for the most part, so I can make some pretty good educated guesses.

 

You have a patching server/authentication, and a database and world/zone server. Also a master server somewhere that will call on other servers that are in standby to handle the load if a particular world/zone server needs help. In simple terms anyway.

 

They probably have an HP or IBM Blade server. But you are right, I cant say for sure. But i would be willing to bet money that they run multiple virtual servers on them. (As opposed to using the whole blade for one server, I bet they split them in half.)

Edited April 19, 2012 by Oddzball

[DarthVindictus]

Eh i have my 2 lvl 50s on both sides, it gets boring after that, all my friends are in bed.

 

I like math and numbers so i find this fun.

 

The reason i dont use fleet is the number change to much to quickly.

 

Fleet can go from 50 to 120 in like 2 minutes depending on guilds or groups poping in and out of FP and ops.

 

People use it because that's the realistic available pool of people to recruit for flashpoints and team queued PVP.

 

If we had galaxy wide LFG utilities "dead" servers where an overwhelming majority of the players are not on the fleet would feel more lively. But nobody wants to run around to every planet spamming local chat looking for group members.

 

Community driven attempts to have galaxy wide lfg chat basically failed on Space Slug, didn't help that there were 2 competing attempts at the same time.

 

So as far as I see it, the ball is in Bioware's hands to fix that dilemma, because the community tried and it didn't take hold.

 

Not to mention, player created channels are VERY spammy. You see everyone joining and leaving the channel and its obnoxious, even if there's only a handfull of people using it.

Edited April 19, 2012 by DarthVindictus

[hypnosys]

I stumbled upon this link recently and I decided to share it with the SWTOR community. Its a transcript from a keynote speech by Jeff Strain at Games Developer Conference in 2007, and I feel it still holds absolutely true to this date. It is a long read but I am sure a lot of you will find it very interesting. (http://www.guildwars.com/events/trad...7/gcspeech.php).

 

Note: I opened a thread on this but it was closed by the mods. If you are interested about the MMO industry in general this is a great read.

[defiantlegacy]

Also, GW2, Terra - Also dying.

 

FFS guys, Age of Conan still has enough people to play and enjoy, as does Planetside 1...This game is going nowhere and will just get better and better.

 

Tera is, in fact, quite awful

[Oddzball]

I stumbled upon this link recently and I decided to share it with the SWTOR community. Its a transcript from a keynote speech by Jeff Strain at Games Developer Conference in 2007, and I feel it still holds absolutely true to this date. It is a long read but I am sure a lot of you will find it very interesting. (http://www.guildwars.com/events/trad...7/gcspeech.php).

 

Note: I opened a thread on this but it was closed by the mods. If you are interested about the MMO industry in general this is a great read.

 

THats actually interesting, thanks.

[Infiltrator]

BF3 severely hurt EA. Honestly I am glad it did with the awful integration of Battlelog which absolutely sucked.

 

This game is only in just starting out, WoW and every other half decent MMO went through this...

[Oddzball]

And for the guy who tried to call me out like he was hot stuff. We run HP BL485 Blades 8 to a rack, with 166 racks spread across 4 square miles in various buildings. I'm not specifically the hardware guy, but I'm not an idiot. I fail to see why their server population caps are so low unless they are using some really cheap servers.

[DarthVindictus]

Tera is, in fact, quite awful

 

The only thing TERA has going for it is the targeting system for combat. Aside from that.. nothing unless you're some weird pedo.

[DarthVindictus]

And for the guy who tried to call me out like he was hot stuff. We run HP BL485 Blades 8 to a rack, with 166 racks spread across 4 square miles in various buildings. I'm not specifically the hardware guy, but I'm not an idiot. I fail to see why their server population caps are so low unless they are using some really cheap servers.

 

Terrible Engine that wasn't ready when Bioware acquired it.

[Oddzball]

No its not the hero framework.

 

HeroEngine Able to Support 100,000 Concurrent Users on Single Shard

 

Seriously. Its their hardware. HAS to be.

[GalacticKegger]

No, fleets are not a good indication of activity levels.

No different than going into Stormwind or Orgrimmar to get a feel for a server's population in WoW. I was on Thorium Brotherhood and Kirin Tor, both were awesome raiding servers once. I dropped in February because there were more Love Is In The Air quest NPCs in the town squares than there were players. And the AHs on both servers were bare. Ya, Fleet is this game's social center which makes it a good (not perfect) indicator of a server's activity. There is no way to know what a server's true population is. Edited April 19, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Biytor]

No its not the hero framework.

 

HeroEngine Able to Support 100,000 Concurrent Users on Single Shard

 

Seriously. Its their hardware. HAS to be.

 

 

They are no CCP. But then CCP didn't know what a can of worms they were going to open when they made a single shard,

Edited April 19, 2012 by Biytor

[DarthVindictus]

[quote name='Oddzball']No its not the hero framework. HeroEngine Able to Support 100,000 Concurrent Users on Single Shard Seriously. Its their hardware. HAS to be.[/QUOTE] Is it true that the Hero Engine's license is free but you have to give them 30% of the earnings from any game developed with it? Just seems like a terrible business decision if so, on top of the licensing fees for Lucas.

[Oddzball]

Is it true that the Hero Engine's license is free but you have to give them 30% of the earnings from any game developed with it?

 

Just seems like a terrible business decision if so, on top of the licensing fees for Lucas.

 

No its not 30%, its negotiated per individual contract. I think thats just a rumor someone started.

[Saltydogg]

Jek Jek Pop pstats as of 7:28 PM 4/18/2012

 

1120 Players active

 

Republic ~562 active players.

LVL 50;

37 Commandos

27 Vanguards

33 Sents

29 Guards

37 Sage

30 Shadow

19 Gunslinger

19 Scoundrel

 

Empire ~555 active players

LVL 50;

34 Juggs

19 Mara's

63 Sorcs

22 Assassins

46 Mercs

16 Powertechs

16 Snipers

20 Operatives

 

 

Approx 40% on both sides are between lvl 20-45

 

Starter planets only had around 5-10% of the total population. Fleet only had around 15% of the total population.

 

Proving fleet is a bad way to measure a server pop.

 

As much as I appreciate you bring up the stats but there is a major flaw with counting those types of numbers. First off for a new game that is a pretty pathetic population value. Granted its mid week but really a total of 1k or about for a server population is dead. For the supposed 1.7 million active subs you should see three times the numbers of active 50's per server. This is the point I am making. To do end game you need numbers. The launch of the game you had guilds filled, hell my guild had 143 people in it, thats including alts. We are down to 42 or so half of that are active players. Once again doing a population search such as this only proves that people are playing in some sort of capacity. There is little to no MMO feeling, no massive open pvp battles due to population imbalance and the abortion call Illum, there are no pug groups putting together flash points, warzone pops have gotten better but still take in some cases 15 minutes to pop. Overall a server that has a population of 1-2k is a total failure in my opinion. It show a progressivly deteriating game. I am sorry but I am not wrong with this assessment, I saw the same thing happen in Warhammer. Once you see the first server merge is when you know this game is in serious trouble. That wont happen until after May due to second quarter investment reports come out.

[Oddzball]

As much as I appreciate you bring up the stats but there is a major flaw with counting those types of numbers. First off for a new game that is a pretty pathetic population value. Granted its mid week but really a total of 1k or about for a server population is dead. For the supposed 1.7 million active subs you should see three times the numbers of active 50's per server. This is the point I am making. To do end game you need numbers. The launch of the game you had guilds filled, hell my guild had 143 people in it, thats including alts. We are down to 42 or so half of that are active players. Once again doing a population search such as this only proves that people are playing in some sort of capacity. There is little to no MMO feeling, no massive open pvp battles due to population imbalance and the abortion call Illum, there are no pug groups putting together flash points, warzone pops have gotten better but still take in some cases 15 minutes to pop. Overall a server that has a population of 1-2k is a total failure in my opinion. It show a progressivly deteriating game. I am sorry but I am not wrong with this assessment, I saw the same thing happen in Warhammer. Once you see the first server merge is when you know this game is in serious trouble. That wont happen until after May due to second quarter investment reports come out.

 

THats active on a Tuesday night though. Its around 1.5k on weekends for most servers. And the factions arent that imbalanced btw. Not when you look at the actual numbers.

 

Im not defending the games pathetically smaller server sizes by any means, but we definately have issues with population. Even with what the BW marketing machine tries to spin in its interviews.

 

THe game is fundementally designed to be played solo and in small group though. SO maybe its just not the kind of MMO that requires big groups of ppl online.

[DarthVindictus]

No its not 30%, its negotiated per individual contract. I think thats just a rumor someone started.

 

No I found where that came from it's on the wikipedia entry for HeroEngine. There's a cloud version of it that is free but the license is 30% of the earnings of the game made with it.

 

I suppose this allows for a small developer to make a game with it for free if they want.

[Oddzball]

No I found where that came from it's on the wikipedia entry for HeroEngine. There's a cloud version of it that is free but the license is 30% of the earnings of the game made with it.

 

I suppose this allows for a small developer to make a game with it for free if they want.

 

WIki is so out of date. You should go look at the developers forums. Much better info.

[Saltydogg]

THats active on a Tuesday night though. Its around 1.5k on weekends for most servers. And the factions arent that imbalanced btw. Not when you look at the actual numbers.

 

Im not defending the games pathetically smaller server sizes by any means, but we definately have issues with population. Even with what the BW marketing machine tries to spin in its interviews.

 

THe game is fundementally designed to be played solo and in small group though. SO maybe its just not the kind of MMO that requires big groups of ppl online.

 

If their engine can handle a server with a 10k population they should start merging now. That will fix the flood of people unsubbing. I reroll on fatman just to enjoy the game when I dont have guildies on. That server has a very healthy population and at a low level i can find a group from pretty much any heroic quest. When rolling another toon on the server I am on now I feel like I am playing a first person MMO with a companion. I guess the feel of a MMO is not there when the population is a low as it is. I guess we can only hope for a positive change

[DevonLoy]

Considering most MMO's hire entirely new teams after games have launched, lay-offs are to be expected, but there keeping enough to not hire new people.

[Waxninja]

once a company gets floated on the share market it will go badly for customers and staff. Such is the nature of capitalism. The prime concern of the board then becomes short term profit to appease shareholders not making things work and inevitably the companies original output declines, however they have the funds to buy up and coming independents so their hopes and dreams can be ruined too. Here begins the death-knell of the gaming industry it will struggle on like the movies till it has its next Michael bay moment... (although everything will only be forgiven for a year until everyone realized that beyond korean cgi and megans knockers his movies are terrible...) what we need a revolutionary mmo so the kids dont realise this and riot. oh wait...

 

Beyond the ranting BF3 was a great game ruined by the two terrible systems attached to it - DICE and failsourcewatabe - Origin both of which caused the game to crash so often it was no fun to play. SWTORS's pretty good just the negative reaction on the forums/and in blogs has been bizarre and disproportionate.