The end of the arguement. Is SWTOR in decline? Can it be saved?

[shepardcomander]

Yeah guys, keep telling players to go back to WoW or leave. That's gonna help.

 

F*n fanboys.

 

 

They are just following the esteemed community manager's example. At NYCC 2011 he told anyone who enjoyed Star Wars style space combat to go play something else because tor was not for them source: http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/16570-nycc-2011-q-a-panel-live-blog @ the 48:30 mark. The empty servers stand as evidence that a great many players are heading Bioware's official advice.

[DarthVindictus]

It is time for the all important history lesson.

• Remember when Warhammer Online was launched? Remember how people were worshiping that game before launch and flooded the forums with whining after?
   
  
• Remember when Age of Conan was launched? Remember how people were worshiping that game before launch and flooded the forums with whining after?
   
  
• Remember when Aion was launched? Remember how people were worshiping that game before launch and flooded the forums with whining after?
   
  
• Remember when Rift was launched? Remember how people were worshiping that game before launch and flooded the forums with whining after?
  
• Remember when FF XIV was launched? Remember how people were worshiping that game before launch and flooded the forums with whining after?
  

 

Remember what were people saying before TOR was launched? Of course, you do.

 

What do we have now?

 

• People are worshiping GW2, before launch. What do you think will happen in 2-3 months?
  
• People are worshiping Tera, before launch. What do you think will happen in 2-3 months?
  
• People are worshiping TSW, before launch. What do you think will happen in 2-3 months?
  

You know what's gonna happen and you know that it is going to happen.

 

Savvy MMO gamers weren't saying that.

 

In the case of Warhammer? I barely took interest in it. When I saw that it was basically WoW with a PVP focus, I stopped paying attention, wasn't even an IP I was interested in.

 

Age of Conan DID interest me, and I signed up for the beta and got in. I was very disappointed, even though it did have some good points to it, I saw a VERY rocky launch in its future that was going to prevent the game from ever being successful. I did not buy the game. I was right. That was a depressing one because it did have some neat ideas, that actually turned up in this game and future games (instanced personal storylines), not saying that was the inspiration for such quests being in TOR or GW2, just saying it was a good idea shared by all 3 games. Terrible management of the game unfortunately. Very sad about that one.

 

Aion never interested me aside from the artwork. The art felt familiar to Guild Wars, often wondered if they didn't contract out some of the artists from Arenanet to work on Aion (considering they're both published by NCsoft). But aside from that, Korean grinder. Impressive subscription numbers overseas, not surprising it's F2P in North America and Europe.

 

Rift was again, very few new ideas. WoW with better graphics. Though I suppose they have some dynamic events. Never had much hope for it, didn't even sign up for beta.

 

Final Fantasy XIV was never worshipped. From the very first moment it was announced it was given negative reception. Good art as you'd come to expect from Square Enix, but really, nobody expected it to be good. It was however quite shocking to hear just HOW bad it really was.

 

For me, SW:TOR was never "worshipped" I was excited at first, but as details came in over the years, I got disappointed. If I hadn't tried out the beta and had gotten completely bored of LotRO, with the kinship I was in falling apart and my server dying, if it hadn't been for kinship members showing interest in starting a guild here.. probably wouldn't have given it a chance. But beta gave me the reaction of "it's not as bad as I thought it'd be, I suppose I can play it for awhile" But it is the first MMO I've ever played where I really did already have plans on leaving shortly after starting. I figured I'd give it a few months, play through a few storylines, and probably be done, just fill time before GW2. I anticipated the biggest killer of fun for me in an MMO on it's way: expansions with level cap raises. Can't stand em. killed the enjoyment and quality of WoW, and LotRO. Maybe not the first expansion, but successive expansions? Yeah. Turns the game into a hamster wheel. With the gear treadmill already taking place here in 1.2.. I can smell the level 60 maybe level 70 expansion on the way. Not interested in that. Still like the class stories, and the first time you go through the quests and flashpoints the dialog is good, and it's Star Wars.. but.. that's about it.

 

GW2.. I'll admit is hyped like crazy. But.. there's a lot of stuff that actually warrants the hype. It's doing something different than the standard MMO formula. It is refreshing (from personal experience I can vouch for that). It's the first MMO for a long time that the more info I got on it, the more excited I became for it, with the new ideas and old ideas done right. Plus, A.net already showed they can deliver on what they promise, in GW1, until that is, they switched from doing GW1 campaigns and started on GW2.. they fell back on their 'no grind' promise at that point.. but I can't blame them there. 3 years with no grind was impressive. I expect GW2 will do very well, especially when it doesn't rely on subscriptions.

 

TERA... I don't really see many people worshipping it, and any Saavy MMO'er will look at it and say, okay, so the combat has an improvement with the aiming.. otherwise it's another Themepark with no substance. Failure.

 

TSW I know nothing about haven't taken an interest in.. so can't say.

[soloborn]

Having played several of the "mainstream" MMOs over the years (Evercrack, WoW, EvE, Planetside, SW Galaxies, LOTRO, DDO, STO, etc.), I can say that many of these suffered at the start. Players reached the max level and quickly got bored. Both EQ and WoW was like this at the start, but both quickly learned the magic formula that this game is now employing. Patches bring on new features like new bosses, armor and places to explore. Running special events challenge both veteran and midlevel players and provide rare rewards.

 

The first expansion for an MMO normally comes out about a year after the release (with WoW being about every two years). EQ had the record with almost 20 expansions (lost count after PoP) over the past 13+ years.

 

My point, this game is only 4 months old and people are already ready to jump ship! I say give the devs a chance. This game has much potential and there is still plenty of room for expansion (dagobah, yavin, kashyyyk, geonosis, kessel, besbin, endor, the water planet, etc.). The response to this week's event should be proof that there is life in this game and it will only grow as the devs expand the MMO.

 

Maybe a better thread would be "What features would you want in a SW MMO?" or "What would make SWTOR a better game without turning it into a WoW clone?" My input would be to create an entire planet on each server just dedicated to PVP (with multiple landing points to prevent spawn ganking).

 

____________________________________________________________________

[StyxzieWaterz]

Surely someone has noted that server caps were smaller at launch...much smaller.

 

There's no denying that server pops have decreased overall, but it'f plain foolish to assume this is from solely unsubs. How many ppl rerolled? How many are subbed but don't log in? I've been subed since launch, but only recently started playing again due to time issues. How many were like me?

 

Stop with the doom-saying. If you don't feel popular playing TOR anymore then bounce. There's plenty of new mmos coming for you to over-hype and pronounce dead on launch...

[DarthVindictus]

I think swtor is holding steady.

 

I would like to see swtor continuing with world events to unfold and tell a larger story of the universe. I would hope the rhakghoul event was just the start of it and I think it is. Rise of the rhakgouls now a ship crashed on tatooine. What next?

 

Keep up this dynamic storyline and introduce others arcs and keep it going every month or so with a new event and the game will grow.

 

I think subscription base is about to take another dump this next week

 

You see.. the 30 free days are being given starting next week. That's a few days after people who subscribed for 3 month subscriptions (like myself) will have their subscriptions expire. It's a baiting tactic. You won't get the 30 free days if you let your account expire, so to get the 30 free days.. you have to resubscribe, basically getting 2 months for the price of 1 or 4 for 3 7 for 6, you get the idea. EA/Bioware must have determined the number of 3 month subscribers to be a significant amount to go to a tactic like this. Now you just have to wonder, are they ANTICIPATING a bunch of 3 months subscriptions ending, or do they already have a substantial amount of 3 month subscribers who cancelled months ago? Either way, the timing is obvious damage control.

[Yogurta]

Anyone who thinks this game is doing well is just lying to himself.

 

Population in zones and fleet has been nothing but declining since launch.

Everybody rerolling on hig populated servers is because all the other servers are doing great?

I suppose that friend invites and free days are not being given because the game is doing great.

Neither is EA stock plummeting because SWTOR is selling like hotcakes.

 

I support that somebody finds this game interesting and fun, but that person has to realize, there are more and more people everyday who do not share such opinion.

 

P.S. Using my posting privilege before my sub ends today

[macumba]

actually the only thing important is whether you like the game or not, I for myself could care less about how much money somebody makes selling the game. ea is obviously not learning.

after breathing down every developers neck threatening them with their jobs and wondering afterwards where the creativity went, now we (the customers) are the next target for exploitation,

I believe they leave the devs at BW pretty much alone, but day1 dlc's forcing origin upon us (I bet richard garriot is really really sad that the name of his old company is used for that abomination).

they are squeezing us, they think they can get away with just about anything.... well obviously they cannot. I really hope the crowd funded games like double fines adventure or wasteland2 will set a good example for the future and I bet after the millions raised from crowd funding publishers like EA and activision (who are left out of this) are already making plans on how to reach out for that kind of funds.

[Kthx]

I think subscription base is about to take another dump this next week

 

What do you mean by "another dump"? Do you have any evidence that the subscription numbers have declined at all? All the data provided by EA and BioWare indicates that subscriptions have remained steady.

[NevesNET]

I think subscription base is about to take another dump this next week

 

You see.. the 30 free days are being given starting next week. That's a few days after people who subscribed for 3 month subscriptions (like myself) will have their subscriptions expire. It's a baiting tactic. You won't get the 30 free days if you let your account expire, so to get the 30 free days.. you have to resubscribe, basically getting 2 months for the price of 1 or 4 for 3 7 for 6, you get the idea. EA/Bioware must have determined the number of 3 month subscribers to be a significant amount to go to a tactic like this. Now you just have to wonder, are they ANTICIPATING a bunch of 3 months subscriptions ending, or do they already have a substantial amount of 3 month subscribers who cancelled months ago? Either way, the timing is obvious damage control.

 

This... see you next game; and, you'd have to be BLIND to not see most servers are already dead. I'm in the same boat as you, used that money towards my GW2 pre-order. EA thinks we're all idiots and that we're going to give them more $, nice try, come again.

[Kthx]

I support that somebody finds this game interesting and fun, but that person has to realize, there are more and more people everyday who do not share such opinion.

 

Those of us who enjoy the game have never said that we expect every other player to also enjoy it. We understand that taste in games is subjective. What we have said is that your lack of enjoyment of SWTOR doesn't mean that the game is dying.

[DieAlteHexe]

Those of us who enjoy the game have never said that we expect every other player to also enjoy it. We understand that taste in games is subjective. What we have said is that your lack of enjoyment of SWTOR doesn't mean that the game is dying.

 

Exactly how I feel. There have been several MMOs that I thought were, well, I won't use the language I thought here yet others thought they were the best thing since sliced bread. I just shrugged and moved on.

 

This game is nowhere near "dying". It's fluctuating as all new MMOs do, and it will seek its level in time. Those who keep braying that it's dying are indulging themselves in "prophecy" and they are going to be wrong. Whilst I doubt this game will ever come close to the level of subs that WoW has...who cares (well, aside from EA/BW, I'm sure they would have been happy had that happened ).

 

The game simply has to be profitable. That's it. So long as that happens (and I'm pretty sure it will) then these assertions of "death" are moot.

[DarthVindictus]

What do you mean by "another dump"? Do you have any evidence that the subscription numbers have declined at all? All the data provided by EA and BioWare indicates that subscriptions have remained steady.

 

The first statements were that the game had sold a little over 2 million copies. January runs around, we hear "1.7 million subscribers" in other words, 300k people dropped subscription right away. That's a significant loss right after the first month (the free month).

[Ashlov]

I've played these types of games since the early EQ days, so I know that sometimes it simply takes time to develop a good product. Why does this trend continue? I don't know enough about these types of businesses to really have a solid grasp on why they typically have poor launches.

 

My guild and I are playing this for now, but we're also excited to give Guild Wars 2 a try in the next couple of weeks (hopefully). Assuming the game is worth a damn, for no monthly fee, it'll take some really big changes for me to dump $15 a month to stick around SWTOR.

 

That, I'm still bitter that they haven't bothered to say a single word about removing the Party Instigator. It's a crappy little social item, but business practices like that makes me wonder what vending machine their decision makers got their degrees from.

 

While I really dislike WoW overall, they've set some industry standards that are widely accepted as 'good ideas' and seem to be desired by most gamers. As to why BW didn't plan for these types of things or bring them into the fold early on is mind boggling.

[corbanite]

I think subscription base is about to take another dump this next week

 

You see.. the 30 free days are being given starting next week. That's a few days after people who subscribed for 3 month subscriptions (like myself) will have their subscriptions expire. It's a baiting tactic. You won't get the 30 free days if you let your account expire, so to get the 30 free days.. you have to resubscribe, basically getting 2 months for the price of 1 or 4 for 3 7 for 6, you get the idea. EA/Bioware must have determined the number of 3 month subscribers to be a significant amount to go to a tactic like this. Now you just have to wonder, are they ANTICIPATING a bunch of 3 months subscriptions ending, or do they already have a substantial amount of 3 month subscribers who cancelled months ago? Either way, the timing is obvious damage control.

 

all a free month for me as I intended on staying anyhow. Thanks bioware

 

oh and

 

FOR ACTIVE SUBSCRIBERS OF STAR WARS™: THE OLD REPUBLIC™ ("SWTOR") AS OF APRIL 12, 2012, 12:00PM CDT, 5:00PM GMT OR AS OF APRIL 21, 2012, 12:00PM CDT, 5:00PM GMT

 

please note the use of OR rather than AND. Sorry for caps was a cut and paste from the email

Edited April 18, 2012 by corbanite

[DarthVindictus]

all a free month for me as I intended on staying anyhow. Thanks bioware

 

oh and

 

FOR ACTIVE SUBSCRIBERS OF STAR WARS™: THE OLD REPUBLIC™ ("SWTOR") AS OF APRIL 12, 2012, 12:00PM CDT, 5:00PM GMT OR AS OF APRIL 21, 2012, 12:00PM CDT, 5:00PM GMT

 

please note the use of OR rather than AND. Sorry for caps was a cut and paste from the email

 

I'll believe it when I see that my account becomes reactivated when they roll out that promotion. But to me, having it start right after 3month subscriptions end screams bait and damage control. Otherwise, why wouldn't they just credit all level 50/legacy level 6 characters with active subscriptions on the date of the 1.2 patch with 30 days on their current subscription.. rather than delaying it past a point when subscriptions could possibly drop?

[Obie_Wan]

all a free month for me as I intended on staying anyhow. Thanks bioware

 

oh and

 

FOR ACTIVE SUBSCRIBERS OF STAR WARS™: THE OLD REPUBLIC™ ("SWTOR") AS OF APRIL 12, 2012, 12:00PM CDT, 5:00PM GMT OR AS OF APRIL 21, 2012, 12:00PM CDT, 5:00PM GMT

 

please note the use of OR rather than AND. Sorry for caps was a cut and paste from the email

 

Well I've been unsubbed since April 12, and so far I haven't seen any of the free time. Not the 30 days, nor the 1 days. My time has run out as of yesterday. So I dunno, this is probably just another PR stunt on their part or they screwed something up again.

[DieAlteHexe]

Well I've been unsubbed since April 12, and so far I haven't seen any of the free time. Not the 30 days, nor the 1 days. My time has run out as of yesterday. So I dunno, this is probably just another PR stunt on their part or they screwed something up again.

 

No. Might want to read this from which comes this:

 

We've also got another significant piece of good news: everyone will have until April 22nd at noon CDT (5:00pm GMT - click here for a time zone converter) to have a Level 50 character or Legacy Level 6 on their account to get 30 days of game time on us. (Your 30 days of game time will be applied to your account on April 25th by 11:59pm CDT.) Players will now have multiple options, as well as more time, to try and reach these goals and play all the great new content in Game Update 1.2

 

Boy, people are so quick to believe the worst.

 

FWIW, just got the email about the pet a couple hours back.

[Devlonir]

Well I've been unsubbed since April 12, and so far I haven't seen any of the free time. Not the 30 days, nor the 1 days. My time has run out as of yesterday. So I dunno, this is probably just another PR stunt on their part or they screwed something up again.

 

Also, for the 30 days you need to have an active recurring subscription. Saying you unsubbed automatically disqualifies you for the 30 days.

 

Sorry mate.

[DieAlteHexe]

Also, for the 30 days you need to have an active recurring subscription. Saying you unsubbed automatically disqualifies you for the 30 days.

 

Sorry mate.

 

I missed that. Thank you for pointing that out.

[Kthx]

The first statements were that the game had sold a little over 2 million copies. January runs around, we hear "1.7 million subscribers" in other words, 300k people dropped subscription right away. That's a significant loss right after the first month (the free month).

 

Here is what was actually said:

 

"As John stated, we have sold through 2 million units of the game since December. We currently have a little over 1.7 million active subscribers. The rest have either not started playing yet or have opted out. This is an outstanding start for an MMO, and the metrics on engagement suggest players are loving the game." [Frank Gibeau, President EA Labels, February 1, 2012]

 

What does this mean in plain English?

 

1. The gap of 300,000 includes both players that have opted out of a subscription and players who never started. There are a number of reasons for the latter: Lack of time, change of plans, hardware incompatibilies, etc. I personally have a bunch of games that I owned for quite some time before I started playing them. The fact is that there is no information on what share of the 300,000 opted out and what share never started playing.

 

2. Practically all MMOs include 30 days of play with the purchase of the game. Enjoyment of games is highly subjective. Just as there are many players who don't play single-player games to completion, there will be players who, for whatever reason, are not sufficiently attracted to a particularl MMO to keep subscribing. Assuming, for argument's sake, that all 300,000 consist of players who opted out, this still represents a capture rate of 85%, which is deemed excellent for an MMO.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Kthx

[Obie_Wan]

Also, for the 30 days you need to have an active recurring subscription. Saying you unsubbed automatically disqualifies you for the 30 days.

 

Sorry mate.

 

Well you and the gentleman above me can credit BioWare themselves for misinformation then.

 

 

Do a search for Stephen Reid's name and you'll find he had posted there with information regarding people who had unsubbed but still having days remaining on their account.

 

 

That and there's people claiming left and right that they've already received their game time. Some say they already got their 30 days, other say they got their free 1 day.

 

I've gotten neither. The former, understandable despite the inaccurate information mess, the latter not quite so.

[Pvpingwithnoobs]

Today was my last day, 2 accounts now cancelled, 1.2 destroyed my pvp fun. (no i don't play a healer either lol)

 

Great work BW, looks like those EA staff who will find they are made redundant, can thank you lot in some way lol

 

Sleep well tonight, i know I will as i am still employed, maybe thats because I listen to my customers.

[Dayln]

Today was my last day, 2 accounts now cancelled, 1.2 destroyed my pvp fun. (no i don't play a healer either lol)

 

Great work BW, looks like those EA staff who will find they are made redundant, can thank you lot in some way lol

 

Sleep well tonight, i know I will as i am still employed, maybe thats because I listen to my customers.

 

And as you leave, 5 more new accoutns have subscribed

 

have a nice day

[Elgarr]

Today was my last day, 2 accounts now cancelled, 1.2 destroyed my pvp fun. (no i don't play a healer either lol)

 

Great work BW, looks like those EA staff who will find they are made redundant, can thank you lot in some way lol

 

Sleep well tonight, i know I will as i am still employed, maybe thats because I listen to my customers.

 

Lol ditto.

 

0 days left on mine, I did it just in the nick of time

[Drakkip]

And as you leave, 5 more new accoutns have subscribed

 

have a nice day

 

Really? You have some proof of that? Some evidence to suggest that for everyone 1 unsub 5 more new players sub? Or I guess this is that "90% of all statistics are made up on the spot" .... lol