The end of the arguement. Is SWTOR in decline? Can it be saved?

[Oldgrimm]

Why should SWTOR have been a sandbox game? BW pretty clearly wanted a story-driven MMO and not a sandbox game.

 

I looked into Archage and thought "yeah, this could be the game some folks have been looking for". I hope it is and I hope those who are looking forward to it finally find their "home" like so many of us have here.

 

In the leveling process I can see clearly, that SWTOR is a story driven MMO. But please help me, where is this "story driven" after reaching the lvl-cap?

Your argument is valid, but on the long term the Lvl50 content, is the content what matters most.

 

And I could be too pessimistic, but I dont see much of a story driven MMO in the endgame.

Or is it the purpose in SWTOR to play all the 8 storylines to lvl 50?

What comes then?

 

OK, we could count the idea of a story driven MMO as an innovation, but the final implementation failed.

[DarthVindictus]

Why should SWTOR have been a sandbox game? BW pretty clearly wanted a story-driven MMO and not a sandbox game.

 

I looked into Archage and thought "yeah, this could be the game some folks have been looking for". I hope it is and I hope those who are looking forward to it finally find their "home" like so many of us have here.

 

I'm not big on sandbox games myself (usually see them as a dev excuse for not making content, claiming community driven content will take its place but that ends up being nothing but open world pvp and grinding) but when you really look at what TOR is as a themepark MMO, you find out that the model really isn't ideal for a star wars MMO.

 

It's only apparent in a few locations but...

 

As imperial you play in areas on corellia where there's republic and resistance fighters everywhere, like you land basically in a hot spot of resistance. On Republic side, you're in areas with Imperials everywhere.

 

It doesn't feel organic. We should be on our respective sides but we should have to cross the front lines to encounter republic NPC's.

 

Questing areas need to overlap more, it would encourage more open world PVP, and make the planets feel more organic. The current game design doesn't accomplish this and it shatters immersion. Doesn't help that aside from phased instances, mobs are just standing around in the middle of nowhere waiting to be attacked. That's a drawback of MMO's that have exp/level systems across the board, even GW2 with its dynamic event system still has mobs standing around just waiting to be killed.. not as many and there are more enemies that move with purpose, but the mobs standing around waiting to die are still there.

 

I don't think I'll ever see an MMO that feels fully organic the way a single player elder scrolls game feels, where you don't have mobs just standing around waiting to die, populations of creatures seem somewhat realistic, etc.

[JeramieCrowe]

In the leveling process I can see clearly, that SWTOR is a story driven MMO. But please help me, where is this "story driven" after reaching the lvl-cap?

Your argument is valid, but on the long term the Lvl50 content, is the content what matters most.

 

It's coming. The content has already been written a year in advance for the continuation of all 8 storylines well past 50. Why do you think your screen says "Interlude" at 50? Open war is coming, along with more chapters to our class stories. BioWare has already stated that.

 

In the meantime, there's still plenty to do.

[DieAlteHexe]

In the leveling process I can see clearly, that SWTOR is a story driven MMO. But please help me, where is this "story driven" after reaching the lvl-cap?

 

In an expansion most likely.

 

Your argument is valid, but on the long term the Lvl50 content, is the content what matters most.

 

Which, alas, rarely comes fast enough.

 

And I could be too pessimistic, but I dont see much of a story driven MMO in the endgame.

Or is it the purpose in SWTOR to play all the 8 storylines to lvl 50?

What comes then?

 

OK, we could count the idea of a story driven MMO as an innovation, but the final implementation failed.

 

The game isn't over yet. That's why you see the "interlude" bit. It is an MMO that has not yet been out six months. Expansions usually take between six months and a year to manifest, bringing a higher level cap, more quests, more content, more raid/PvP etc.

[DarthVindictus]

It's coming. The content has already been written a year in advance for the continuation of all 8 storylines well past 50. Why do you think your screen says "Interlude" at 50? Open war is coming, along with more chapters to our class stories. BioWare has already stated that.

 

In the meantime, there's still plenty to do.

 

raising the level cap will 100% kill my interest. I still eventually want to come back and make an agent and a knight for the story but raising level caps is stupid and unnecessary. It only replaces content rather than expanding it, and gives the illusion of progression while your character stays largely the same.

 

Had to edit since Bioware showed their propensity for editing criticism to make it look like a compliment yet again.

Edited April 20, 2012 by DarthVindictus

[DieAlteHexe]

...I don't think I'll ever see an MMO that feels fully organic the way a single player elder scrolls game feels, where you don't have mobs just standing around waiting to die, populations of creatures seem somewhat realistic, etc.

 

I don't think so either, at least not any time soon. Couple of reasons...

 

1. Big bucks invested in what sells hence fairly formulaic MMOs, drat it all.

 

2. Technology needs to get a bit further so that horizons can be stretched.

Edited April 20, 2012 by DieAlteHexe

[Oldgrimm]

It's coming. The content has already been written a year in advance for the continuation of all 8 storylines well past 50. Why do you think your screen says "Interlude" at 50? Open war is coming, along with more chapters to our class stories. BioWare has already stated that.

 

I'm glad, that there are people out there, who are so easily entertained.

But, after 2 content-patches there are some disbelievers, who dont think that these flowery words are in fact the truth.

 

In the meantime, there's still plenty to do.

 

And what exactly?

As a dedicated PvP player I already know, that this game wasnt designed for our kind.

For dedicated PvE players, there is not that plenty to do either.

So yes, SWTOR will be a field test for me how many real casual player are out there, because this game is clearly made for the casual Joe.

[GreySix]

GW2 has 3 main storylines per race (5 races, that's 15 main stories, potentially more if the other choices alter them to a large extent), that are altered by a few other decisions in your character Bio (haven't figured out to what extent yet), along with branching choices that are NOT based on a morality system, IE my Ash Legion Charr Thief had a story somewhat like the Imperial Agent line, I infiltrated a base in disguise discovered the enemy's plans, and freed a prisoner from the Blood Legion. I questioned him and he said his entire warband was wiped out. So I had a chance to recruit him or let him go become a Gladium (a Charr without a Warband, which is shameful in their culture), to recruit him I had to pass a speech check, charm, ferocity or dignity, which you can fail. Now you don't recruit him as a companion (those don't exist, thankfully), but every time you go back to your home instance, he is there, small change, but a person you saved is permanently there, rather than just a mail. Then I told of the enemy's plans to my superiors, and had to make a choice.. which assassination target would I protect? The other would be protected by a Rookie with no field experience. I didn't finish this one yet but I'm predicting that I will succeed and he will fail, and it will branch my story.

 

Well, that all sounds groovy, but one question for you:

 

Does it deal with Star Wars?

 

If no, then you can keep your D&D elves, gnomes, hobbits, and freaks. Thanks, but no thanks.

Edited April 20, 2012 by GreySix

[DieAlteHexe]

raising the level cap will 100% kill my interest. I still eventually want to come back and make an agent and a knight for the story.

 

Why is that? Most folk enjoy advancing in levels and it's quite a common complaint that it takes so long for expansion/updates to increase level-cap.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Sireene
quote/reply to edited post

[Geeluc]

And what exactly?

As a dedicated PvP player I already know, that this game wasnt designed for our kind.

For dedicated PvE players, there is not that plenty to do either.

So yes, SWTOR will be a field test for me how many real casual player are out there, because this game is clearly made for the casual Joe.

 

Seriously?

 

I consider myself an 'average joe' of a gamer and I don't think the game is made for me at all! Never got into PvP or the grouping. Once you hit 50, there's the 'wash, rinse, repeats' of the dailies to do, but that's not nearly enough to keep a causal player like me playing.

 

I think it's more aimed at the PvP'ers/FP/Raiders.

[JeramieCrowe]

raising the level cap will 100% kill my interest. I still eventually want to come back and make an agent and a knight for the story.

 

Where did I ever say raise the level cap? They're not going to do that. The storyline continuations are all level 50 content. Again, BioWare has already stated as much.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Sireene
quote of edited post

[Oldgrimm]

The game isn't over yet. That's why you see the "interlude" bit. It is an MMO that has not yet been out six months. Expansions usually take between six months and a year to manifest, bringing a higher level cap, more quests, more content, more raid/PvP etc.

 

A little analogy there:

 

You walk into a clothing-shop and check all the available offerings in there.

All you find are outdated and overpriced rags and untasty clothes.

Believe me, if you would walk to the shop-manager and ask him, if he could offer you some clothes of a better quality.

You wouldnt expect him coming out of the storage-room with a Versace suit.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Oldgrimm

[Oldgrimm]

Seriously?

 

I consider myself an 'average joe' of a gamer and I don't think the game is made for me at all! Never got into PvP or the grouping. Once you hit 50, there's the 'wash, rinse, repeats' of the dailies to do, but that's not nearly enough to keep a causal player like me playing.

 

I think it's more aimed at the PvP'ers/FP/Raiders.

 

Believe me... its not.

[DieAlteHexe]

A little analogy there:

 

You walk into a clothing-shop and check all the available offerings in there.

All you find are outdated and overpriced rags and untasty clothes.

Believe me, if you would walk to the shop-manager and ask him, if he could offer you some clothes of a better quality.

You wont expect him coming out of the storage-room with a Versace suit.

 

I...what?

 

I'm sorry, but that WHOOOOOOSH sound you just heard was that going straight over my achy head.

[JeramieCrowe]

I'm glad, that there are people out there, who are so easily entertained.

But, after 2 content-patches there are some disbelievers, who dont think that these flowery words are in fact the truth.

 

No one can fix pessimism but the pessimist.

 

And what exactly?

As a dedicated PvP player I already know, that this game wasnt designed for our kind.

For dedicated PvE players, there is not that plenty to do either.

So yes, SWTOR will be a field test for me how many real casual player are out there, because this game is clearly made for the casual Joe.

 

I'm not a casual by any means. I play upwards of 8 hours+ a day. And I only have 2 50's. The rest are still up and coming. Legacy level 30. I'm what can be considered a "hardcore" player. I'm in the minority. Most other players are just now reaching level 50. I have a guildie who accomplished his first level 50 just yesterday. BioWare has never EVER hidden the fact that playing all 8 storylines was part of their endgame. In fact, they've highlighted it time and time again. If people come here and don't do the storylines and complain...well, that's on you , not BioWare, because they TOLD you it was part of the endgame.

 

As for PvP, do you realize that this game launched with EXACTLY what the PvPers asked for in beta? It failed, but don't put all that blame on BioWare. For every PvPer's pointing fingers, there are three more of their own fingers pointed right back at themselves... They're revamping it currently.

Edited April 20, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[faymar]

People have been saying the game is dead since launch.....on launch day you actually had post that said.

 

Since SWTOR has failed who is going to GW2?

 

Only an idiot would think that isn't an agenda from the Arenanet Zealots and that will continue until three months after GW2 launches. The population is fine we were just told yesterday that it hasn't dropped. Yet the hate machine still is trying to affect the games population by spreading misinformation...kinda sad and lame really.

[Oldgrimm]

I...what?

 

I'm sorry, but that WHOOOOOOSH sound you just heard was that going straight over my achy head.

 

I try german:

 

Wenn man in Betracht zieht, was SWTOR bisher anzubieten hatte. Wird man seine Erwartungen an zukuenftige Erweiterungen / Patches und Storyfortfuehrungen dementsprechend anpassen.

 

Or english:

 

If you see, how much SWTOR offers to a gamer now. You will moderate your expectations in the future expansions / patches or coming story lines.

[JustAnotherClone]

It's ridiculous to say this game's in any more decline than any other MMO - got this same gloom-and-doom behavior on Rift as well.

 

This game has only two problems right now for me - both curable. They do need to shrink the server base as I rarely get a chance to do Heroics, let alone flash points. Also, having hit 50 twice, and not having much to do with PvP, I haven't found much interest going forward and am content to play alts until more class content and such improves.

 

Probably going to stick with it for now as most upcoming contenders don't offer anything particularly different. I get all my alts up to 50 and no changes...well, I'll have to reconsider.

[JeramieCrowe]

If you see, how much SWTOR offers to a gamer now. You will moderate your expectations in the future expansions / patches or coming story lines.

 

I do see it, realistically. Not pessimistically with unreal expectations.

 

The FACT is that TOR offers more content at 3 months old than any other MMO has at 3 months old... EVER. Period. End of story.

[Geeluc]

I If you see, how much SWTOR offers to a gamer now. You will moderate your expectations in the future expansions / patches or coming story lines.

 

I agree. The overall game promised so much, but then, as it hit, at first, it was amazing, but it didn't last.

 

1.2 offered so much, but again, it didn't really deliver any thing amazing.

 

Any future patches (if I ever re-sub) will be met with a 'meh' attitude, so then, I either won't be disappointed or it will be amazing to me. But at the moment, my faith in BW isn't very high.

[Oldgrimm]

No one can fix pessimism but the pessimist.

 

In some definitions pessimism is very close to realism.

 

I'm not a casual by any means. I play upwards of 8 hours+ a day. And I only have 2 50's. The rest are still up and coming. Legacy level 30. I'm what can be considered a "hardcore" player. I'm in the minority. Most other players are just now reaching level 50. I have a guildie who accomplished his first level 50 just yesterday. BioWare has never EVER hidden the fact that playing all 8 storylines was part of their endgame. In fact, they've highlighted it time and time again. If people come here and don't do the storylines and complain...well, that's on you , not BioWare, because they TOLD you it was part of the endgame.

 

Hmm... I play(ed) less than half of the time than you and consumed the offered PvE raids and the PvP system quite quickly.

And if they define the endgame to "roll alts until you squeal", its not that healthy. Because many many people dont share the thought on this definition of the endgame.

 

As for PvP, do you realize that this game launched with EXACTLY what the PvPers asked for in beta? It failed, but don't put all that blame on BioWare. For every PvPer's pointing fingers, there are three more of their own fingers pointed right back at themselves... They're revamping it currently.

 

Nah, please you make it too easy for yourself. I could fill pages with the wrong choices BW/EA made.

And the worst thing was, that they clearly didnt do what the PvP asked for in beta.

The best argument for this is Ilum.... and my resume is with this one word concluded.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Averran
drug reference

[DieAlteHexe]

I try german:

 

Wenn man in Betracht zieht, was SWTOR bisher anzubieten hatte. Wird man seine Erwartungen an zukuenftige Erweiterungen / Patches und Storyfortfuehrungen dementsprechend anpassen.

 

Or english:

 

If you see, how much SWTOR offers to a gamer now. You will moderate your expectations in the future expansions / patches or coming story lines.

 

Ah. Thank you for clarifying in two languages! My German is not very good though so it's good you went with English as well.

 

As for the meaning:

 

SWTOR offers a great deal to me right now. It also is a new MMO which "suffers" from the very thing that ALL new MMOs suffer from...the devs really not believing how fast people will consume their offering. It happens EVERY SINGLE TIME.

 

So, whilst it sounds as if you don't think overmuch of the current content and therefore believe that anything coming in the future is going to be equally interesting to you, all I can say is I'm sorry to hear that, and hope you find a game that you enjoy as much as I enjoy this one.

[Oldgrimm]

 

SWTOR offers a great deal to me right now. It also is a new MMO which "suffers" from the very thing that ALL new MMOs suffer from...the devs really not believing how fast people will consume their offering. It happens EVERY SINGLE TIME.

 

So, whilst it sounds as if you don't think overmuch of the current content and therefore believe that anything coming in the future is going to be equally interesting to you, all I can say is I'm sorry to hear that, and hope you find a game that you enjoy as much as I enjoy this one.

 

Thats OK, and I see that SWTOR will remain with a healthy subscribtion base to be profitable for EA/BW.

But, as you said, players like me will find their enjoyment elsewhere.

 

and btw. dont use a german nick .... its misleading

[ShatteredVision]

Unsubed today. Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.

 

I loved this game, but enough is enough. I can't keep deflecting and saying they'll fix things. If they're going to fix those things, they can do it with someone else's money. I'm done paying for beta. The fact that they still haven't merged servers or allowed for transfers at this point is the final straw. I had some great times, but they were fleeting, at best. No, I won't be patiently awaiting an awful game like GW2. Would rather check out the new Rift update. That game was legit. See some of you there.

[DarthVindictus]

Well, that all sounds groovy, but one question for you:

 

Does it deal with Star Wars?

 

If no, then you can keep your D&D elves, gnomes, hobbits, and freaks. Thanks, but no thanks.

 

That's a pretty sheep like attitude to have. That tells them all they have to do is put a lightsaber in it and they get your money.