PVP Class Balance: A non troll thread

[duffordz]

Hi, I'm a Juggernaut. I want cloak of pain.

[Blloodbane]

Hi, I'm a Juggernaut. I want cloak of pain.

 

tell you what, we will share cloak of pain if you share CC immunities...

[duffordz]

Take em, vengeance isn't a viable tree anyways.

[Snuffalupagus]

Nice post, but it rests on the premise that DPS should be the only deciding factor and that the instagibb fest we have now is somehow desirable.

 

No thats the exact opposite of what i'm trying to say, just because i didnt talk about healers doesnt mean i dont want them. I actually said i dont like how healers work in wz's atm and i liked it more pre 1.2.

 

What i want is for every dps to b different not just 'sustained damage' with different tooltips and names for their moves. Some should b better at protecting healers, some should be better at taking down ranged classes that when left alone will do ridiculous amounts of damage. In a way it is paper-scissors-rock but with 8 different variables which need to be mixed and matched to get the best TEAM. I actually want there to b a class that is the best 1v1, there always is and always will be. But a champion team should always beat a team of champions and a well balanced team with varying types of dps should beat a team of just mara's or just mara's with a healer or 2.

 

This is probably just a pipe dream but my that is my idea of great balance with exciting gameplay. Anyone can balance pvp, just give everyone the same moves. The real challenge is to have balance with variety

[VoidJustice]

First off I can kill Sentinals and I am a Vigilance Guardian. You have to manage a Sents cooldowns for sure, and in a classic 1v1 Im gonna stand here, you stand there and we mash eachother till someone dies contest, Im going down.

 

Luckily Pvp isn't a 1v1 Im gonna stand here till one of us dies thing. Fight the sent down, when they go nutzo cooldown, snare and leap away, if they follow guardian leap away, then runaway... then return to sent in 6 seconds. Counting to 6 is the ultimate ability when killing Sents. I know OP right.

 

Now it's not easy, and it doesn't always work, but if you can catch a sent with their cooldowns down... they are squishy and taste of peanutbutter. If their cooldowns are up and well, snare, leap, leap, count to 6.

 

Also another way to kill a sent. Sent attacks healer, ya... taunt, guard healer, dead sent.

Sure it's 2v1 and the sent may not see you at first if you do it right but, still dead sent, live healer...

 

My point. You guys die, your not OP, everything is fine.

 

I know what all you Sents have to do to make the damage ok, Im a guardian, it isn't easy, I know about the 20+ keybindings, the staying in melee range, the medium armor, all that. I applaud you, remember your success may simply be that your good at Pvp and pelase stop asking for nerfs to your own class. If you manage to get yourself nerfed then the new Sents will cry endless tears as that will not be fair for them.

 

Dps dies and fast... the only thing making you feel giddy with power is the fact that someone can finally kill a healer. It's not you being op it's just the game being balanced. Also I imagine getting tons of healer kills now you are drunk with happiness. Please do not confuse balance with torture. Helskinky syndrome at it's best.

 

Also yes I have a Sentinal alt, he is level 5. I have stopped playing him atm, too much fun pvp'ing with some semibalance of class balance.

 

Also and finally, please note the I kill everyone 500k damage 500k healers are starting to realize they need guards. Soon it won't be so easy to get those healer kills. I suggest gorging yourself. They are learning Wz aren't for soloing.

 

enjoy...

Edited April 16, 2012 by VoidJustice

[ELECTRICJUDGMENT]

no YOU are talking about DPS comparison...

 

I am talking about what Juggs get and what Mara's trade off for that... 2 of your 3 skill tress are tank specific, only ONE is DPS, where as Mara's ONLY have DPS trees.

 

So you are trying to compare a DPS/TANK oriented AC and Skill Tree against a lesser armor AC that ONLY does DPS...

 

Not to mention another poster has already posted TWICE that refutiated your other claim that Tankassins are better... and again you are trying to go with a DPS/Tank tree VS a Tank/DPS tree and let me tell you from personal experience. Tankassins are MUCH squisher than jugs when my Mara gets on them.

 

Want to compare apples and oranges next?

 

That is not a "trade off," Soresu is a defensive lightsaber form intended for tanking (Defense/Immortal) and reduces damage output significantly.

 

Focus/Rage and Vigilance/Vengeance are DPS trees, they specify "(damage)" at the bottom of the trees. They do not say "(damage... under the condition you remain squishier than a marauder)." Suggesting DPS Guardians/Juggernauts should switch to Soresu in order to stay alive while sacrificing like 30% of their DPS is not reasonable for a spec DPS focused and geared.

 

What unicorn has shown is a DPS Juggs/Guards in full DPS gear (heavy armor) in Shien or Shii-Cho forms (still putting out less damage than similarly geared Marauders) also have less HP than Marauders. Look at the screenshots.

 

Mara

HP: 16120

AR: 3511

 

Jugg

HP: 15410

AR: 4735

 

Even with his heavy armor rating of 1224 more, and having less DPS, your Marauder in medium armor has 710 more HP than his Jugg.

 

A "trade off" is DPS Juggs and Guardians having 2000 more HP for their reduced DPS, but they don't.

 

Soresu form is not a reasonable solution for this problem. A reasonable solution would be to either increase the Defense/Endurance of Vindicator PvP gear, or increase damage output of DPS Guardian/Jugg to match Marauders. Which would you prefer.

Edited April 16, 2012 by ELECTRICJUDGMENT

[kiwoo]

kiwoo, that may be just me being biased as a sent which i said might happen. But i think any grav round commando would tell you that if u interrupt their grav round they are going to struggle. It sets up all their abilities. Those 6k crits are probably from someone who has full grav round charges on someone else and has used demo round.

 

Like i said, left alone they will eat through teams, targeted, they will do very little damage

 

Thats all well and good when its 1 BH, what about having 2 BHs while stunned, then force choked.

 

I'm not saying I shouldn't die in that situation. I'm saying that BHs are hitting too hard with heatseeker.

 

When Ops/scoundrels where hitting for that hard with all the pre nerf surge and stacking consumables they were nerfed numerous times.

 

I don't see any other classes getting that high a hit, I always check highest hit on the scoreboard. All others are from 2k to 4k and a bit. I'm only seeing 6k-near 7k crits from BHs.

 

Not to mention its easy to get TM/GR debuffs on you if your focus is protecting the carrier or trying to kill the carrier. Not to mention that TM/GR will be active again a lot sooner than the CD on your interrupt. And as a Sage i Don't have the burst to drop a BH in 4 seconds.

 

http://i42.tinypic.com/eq30gm.png

 

As an example.

Edited April 16, 2012 by kiwoo

[Vodrin]

Thats all well and good when its 1 BH, what about having 2 BHs while stunned, then force choked.

 

I'm not saying I shouldn't die in that situation. I'm saying that BHs are hitting too hard with heatseeker.

 

When Ops/scoundrels where hitting for that hard with all the pre nerf surge and stacking consumables they were nerfed numerous times.

 

I don't see any other classes getting that high a hit, I always check highest hit on the scoreboard. All others are from 2k to 4k and a bit. I'm only seeing 6k-near 7k crits from BHs.

 

Not to mention its easy to get TM/GR debuffs on you if your focus is protecting the carrier or trying to kill the carrier. Not to mention that TM/GR will be active again a lot sooner than the CD on your interrupt. And as a Sage i Don't have the burst to drop a BH in 4 seconds.

 

http://i42.tinypic.com/eq30gm.png

 

As an example.

 

I'm topping 4K with relic and WZ adrenals on my mostly recruit geared rage jugg, so I'm thinking other classes are capable of approaching 5-6K crits. I'd hesitate to adjust any classes damage right now until they decide if they are going to adjust how gear is affecting PvP damage and mitigation first. I just can't believe they intended to drop time to kill by as much as they did in the last patch. I'm thinking they missed the mark due to having so few 50's on the PTS to test PvP with.

[kiwoo]

I'm topping 4K with relic and WZ adrenals on my mostly recruit geared rage jugg, so I'm thinking other classes are capable of approaching 5-6K crits. I'd hesitate to adjust any classes damage right now until they decide if they are going to adjust how gear is affecting PvP damage and mitigation first. I just can't believe they intended to drop time to kill by as much as they did in the last patch. I'm thinking they missed the mark due to having so few 50's on the PTS to test PvP with.

 

I agree, something in the damage calculations seems to be well off in comparison to how it was pre 1,2. And certain classes seem to be benefitting more than others, hence the example i posted.

 

I'm not saying NREF CLASSES^^. But something needs to be checked and double checked on the damage calculation figures and see what has radically reduced TTK for some classes.

 

As the last time a class (aka scoundrel/Ops) had, according to BW, a fast TTK they did numerous nerfs to slow it down. So going on that assumption. Something must be wrong to allow TTK to be as short as it is post 1,2.

Edited April 16, 2012 by kiwoo

[Apocryphas]

Guardians need a buff my friend, heavy armor provides us around 5% extra mitigation over a sentinel, yet we have no viable defensive cool downs of our own and we do less damage than sentinels.

[unicornfive]

Guardians need a buff my friend, heavy armor provides us around 5% extra mitigation over a sentinel, yet we have no viable defensive cool downs of our own and we do less damage than sentinels.

 

They still cant undersatnd it m8, like the 6 year old kids. I even posted screenshots and they still cant process it...

 

BM geared jugg in shii-cho :

http://www.screenshots.cc/original/66592/k88e7

BM geared (2 champion) mara in shii-cho :

http://www.screenshots.cc/original/66618/nc7te

Edited April 16, 2012 by unicornfive

[Jabbabba]

Dps shadows need buff m8

Sorry if i sound very rude but learn the classes first and then post your opinion about nerfs based obviously on your 1v1 pvp experience.

any shadow tank can win a sentinel if the sentinel doesn't knows what he is hitting.

 

Smugglers need a huge buff

in a warzone where is like 5 guys defending a turret if the smuggler get in the middle of a fight he is 4 hits by anyone(only 2 crappy defensive cooldowns)

For operations they are useless compare to a sentinel(shadow-smugglers)cause they cannot backstab a boss because the bosses are very tall.

 

Sorry for my english.

Sorry if i sound rude to you Snuffalupagus.

[upzie]

Ok, sorry to say that, we talking about dps and u link me jugg in tanking stance....

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/8BYQlTM/dark-charge

http://www.torhead.com/ability/8eCuJyq/soresu-form

http://www.torhead.com/ability/3SQar1G/ion-gas-cylinder

If u inspect assassin (light armor) while he has Dark charge onm, he has more armor than any class in game...

 

We talking about dps here in dps stances....

The main argument was that heavy armor doesnt offer much dmg reduction compared to others...

According to you, light armor > heavy, about dmg reduction, since assassin in tanking stance > powertech , jugg in dps stance..

 

Since when is ~6.8-6.9k more than 7-9k armor ?

 

And wait, a tank in tank stance, got more armor (by a small margin) than ppl in dps speccs, that are not in tank stances.... wow that caught me off guard.....

 

Lets see same assassin in his dps stance got about ~2.4k armor - ~18-20% dmg reduction.

 

I get what you're trying to say, but god you're dense at times.

[TyrantLeader]

TL;DR

Each dps class should have a specific role to play

BUFF/NERF/LEAVE

Sentinel/Marauder: Nerf

Guardian/Juggernaut: Leave

Commando/Mercenary: Buff

Vanguard/Powertech: Leave

Scoundrel/Operative: Buff

Gunslinger/Sniper: Small Buff

Sage/Sorcerer: Buff

Shadow/Assassin: Nerf

 

great post. excellent format and agree with most of your points. If only we could teach biofail how to read and we could get somewhere.

[Delease]

I would say sniper needs a complete breakdown and evaluation when compared to other classes. We are cannon fodder if someone farts at us. That simple.

 

Having some of the weakest defense in the game along with damage going through every possible defensive check...If i had hair i would have pulled it out already. So frustrating

[Zellata]

Thanks Zellata, you could always boost the impact of those heals yes? And if u dont like the idea of them having a healing while damage mechanic what role would you have sorcs play instead. Crazy burst damage but squishy as hell when targeted. I suppose this would be slightly different to snipers and commandos in that they are more sustained dps while poor when targetted.

 

Thoughts? And how would change the class?

 

Given that sorcs/sages already have a healing tree, I don't think that adding heals to one of dps trees is a good idea. Healing tree is broken atm, but we are talking in general here. Middle tree (lightning) is really a PvE tree, as it turns sorc into a turret and really relies on a tank keeping aggro. In other words, useless in PvP. I think madness tree can be turned into a viable PvP spec if 31pt skill (creeping terrors) is changed to an instant cast nuke (no dot, no root, reasonably long cd - 30s to 1 minute maybe), that does lots of dmg and provides burst capability. This way sorcs become a squishy kiting class. Snipers are still in no-interrupt, no-cc turret mode. Mercs are kind of in-between - less mobility, but better defense.

[Jetflair]

I don't agree with the Vanguard portion.

 

Am I only who thinks Vanguard Assault Spec actually got buffed with last patch?

 

Before patch I played Tactics because I felt Assault was with my gear glass cannon with not enough survivability to hang around enough long to do actual damage. Tactics offered enough survivability and real life dps so I could duel with most classes with ease.

 

Infact rarealy saw on my server Assault Vanguards before patch. Yes I wasn't BM mostly had Champion gear so I didn't have load of expertise to help me.

 

After patch that survivability seems to have disappeared but Assault's burst went up the roof.

Now I even see some others who are specced to Assault Vanguards.

 

So much in infact it went up that I think it now offsets the lack of survivability.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Jetflair

[Jarwan]

"Although it would never happen ideally I'd like them to rollback to pre 1.2 with a couple of changes. Instead of nerfing their damage, i would nerf their ability to get into position in the 1st place. Double the cd of sneak, and make it easier to detect stealth for every class. Even without sneak it is almost impossible to react quick enough when you hear that sound of stealthed op. Keep the uniqueness of the ganking class but make it harder for them to gank so it places more emphasis on the ganking and less on sustained dps. Like I said before every class should have a roll, dont turn every class into the same thing with different abilities, ITS BORING."

 

Are you being serious? Then what the frak is the point of playing a stealth class if it's going to be even harder then it is now. You do realise they've already increased the range at which you can be spotted while in stealth right? And you still want to make it easier for us Scoundrels to get spotted in broad daylight under stealth? What is the point of having stealth then, we might as well remove it and run around naked.

 

The reason why 1.2 is annoying a lot of us Scoundrels is the fact that they tried to highlight some of the skills that were ignored in pre 1.2 and the solution is to tweak the most used ones so now Quick Shot is obsolete as it sucks so much energy. Scoundrels and energy management no longer applies in 1.2. I actually think pre 1.2 Scoundrels were in a better place then they are now.

 

Pre 1.2 Scoundrel Scrappers would rarely use Cool Head to restore energy and they relied mostly on Pugnacity as part of their skill chain. CH for many of us is considered a "incase of emergency, pop CH". It's a skill reserved when you're in a pinch, now CH has become part of our frakking chain! Why? Because our preferred skills require more energy plus cool down timers have been tweaked.

 

BIOWARE if you have any sympathy left somewhere deep in the recesses of your heart, PLEASE RETURN US BACK TO HOW WE WERE. And that's before the 1.2 update.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Jarwan

[Onager]

There's no fruitful discussion coming from this thread nor the posters therein. (Except ragz lol)

 

Not capable of covering any new ground as long as people don't really 'get' what's actually wrong in the first place.

[Pekish]

he base all his long post on a 1vs1 stated at the very begin that is not important then analize mainly speaking about 1vs1 that made me not reach the end of the post if you think that 1vs1 is a way to measure or understnad you cannot balance it

 

Also I am a firm believer that every class even in dps should have a specified roll, you do not need every class being able to b competitive in a 1v1 to have a viable and balanced game

 

... bla bla bla...

 

I would like to go on to say that I believe sents should be the best 1v1 class.

 

... bla bla bla...

 

only feared a tankassasin in a 1v1 duel, they are one of the few classes with the abilities and damage to avoid our cd's and still burn us down.

 

 

please analyze everything again thinking only about group PVP utility in group utility in CAP objective and defend OBJECTIVE... once u actually analyze PVP for real without looking at 1vs1 perhaps you will reach a different conclusion. (and no Damage count MEANS close to NOTHING in a objective PVP)

Edited April 19, 2012 by Pekish

[LordFenixx]

Sorc's need to be able to not get blown up so fast. If they were going for the "glass cannon" thing with them, they have the glass part down with having no defensive cooldowns, but every other class can hit harder.

 

I have played a stealth character for a long time and I have also made a scoundrel here, and no, they should never be able to kill people in a couple seconds. I have been a stealth (yes, a WoW rogue and feral druid) that can kill most people in 2 hits and it is far from fair. I loved the ambush/backstab combo that killed nearly everyone rogues used to be able to do. The most flag returns I have had in a warsong on my rogue was 36 because my team was horrible, but I could kill the flag carrier and vanish right away in the middle of five people.

 

Stealth classes in most games can normally choose to leave combat with a cooldown at any time so trying to say they just die when caught out of stealth is not true. As a sorc, you just die when caught period. If you know what you're doing, you can kill people without having to be in stealth.

Edited April 19, 2012 by LordFenixx

[Humankeg]

Would just like to point out that PT/Vanguards can not guard another player. Well, they can, but they won't. To guard someone means lowering damage output by a huge amount, and damage is mostly what a PT/vanguard brings to the table.

 

If you want a guard on your team, you take a Tankassin, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. They do as much damage as dps, they significantly out damage the other tank specs, they have more utility then the other tank classes, ect.

 

Zero reason for a jug or pt tank, other than for the cfharges a jug brings, but that still isn't enough to top a tankassin.

[EugeneYap]

I kinda disagree with the SENTINEL/MARAUDER damage output, we are still in the "middle of the pack" in the score board our DPS is still lacking behind a lot of classes.

Plus their DPS needs time to build up and it only works if dumb players allow that to happen. Which can be stop very easily. Stun/aoe stun, Blindness, kick in the nuts, root him on the and keep your distance while you dps:wea_02: the hack out of senti/mara

[EugeneYap]

"Although it would never happen ideally I'd like them to rollback to pre 1.2 with a couple of changes. Instead of nerfing their damage, i would nerf their ability to get into position in the 1st place. Double the cd of sneak, and make it easier to detect stealth for every class. Even without sneak it is almost impossible to react quick enough when you hear that sound of stealthed op. Keep the uniqueness of the ganking class but make it harder for them to gank so it places more emphasis on the ganking and less on sustained dps. Like I said before every class should have a roll, dont turn every class into the same thing with different abilities, ITS BORING."

 

Are you being serious? Then what the frak is the point of playing a stealth class if it's going to be even harder then it is now. You do realise they've already increased the range at which you can be spotted while in stealth right? And you still want to make it easier for us Scoundrels to get spotted in broad daylight under stealth? What is the point of having stealth then, we might as well remove it and run around naked.

 

The reason why 1.2 is annoying a lot of us Scoundrels is the fact that they tried to highlight some of the skills that were ignored in pre 1.2 and the solution is to tweak the most used ones so now Quick Shot is obsolete as it sucks so much energy. Scoundrels and energy management no longer applies in 1.2. I actually think pre 1.2 Scoundrels were in a better place then they are now.

 

Pre 1.2 Scoundrel Scrappers would rarely use Cool Head to restore energy and they relied mostly on Pugnacity as part of their skill chain. CH for many of us is considered a "incase of emergency, pop CH". It's a skill reserved when you're in a pinch, now CH has become part of our frakking chain! Why? Because our preferred skills require more energy plus cool down timers have been tweaked.

 

BIOWARE if you have any sympathy left somewhere deep in the recesses of your heart, PLEASE RETURN US BACK TO HOW WE WERE. And that's before the 1.2 update.

 

Dude you wan to compare this with other games?????

Dude despite the nerf they still can kill you before anyone got a change to get up even after shield buffed.

If you can't do that then there must be something wrong with your char

[RankorSSGS]

"This is not to say we are in a state of godmode and no class can possibly kill us. I could name 1 person from almost every class on my server who can do more damage than me, but you have to be the best of the best to beat a mediocre sentinel in 1v1 atm and thats not how it should be.

 

"I would like to go on to say that I believe sents should be the best 1v1 class. This DOES NOT mean they should top damage every wz, the 2 are very different things and it is possible to have without the other as it was pre 1.2. A good sent pre 1.2 only feared a tankassasin in a 1v1 duel, they are one of the few classes with the abilities and damage to avoid our cd's and still burn us down."

 

Quite a contradiction there, please clarify.

"SURVIVABLITY

Guarded by the force was borderline OP before 1.2 but it was counterable. Post 1.2 is ridiculous for 2 reasons

a) People now have to use their cc's on masterstrike

b) The game is now faster so 5 seconds of immunity is insane.

 

My fix would be to either reduced the duration to 3 seconds, which with a debuff to masterstike would pretty much balance out the class or remove it altogether and also reduce the cd on camo to 30 seconds. I believe that every dps class should have a roll and sents should b to win almost any 1v1's, they need defensive cd's but with the state of the game atm 5 seconds of immunity is 2 powerful. A reduction in the cd of camo would let them get away from the middle of a fight more often and b valuable but not overpowering."

 

I agree Guarded by the force is OP currently. Reducing its effect time sounds reasonable with a reduced cd on camo. Good idea.

 

"DAMAGE OUTPUT

For god knows why, masterstrike received a 23% damage increase (when specced) in 1.2. With BM gear mine hits for 4.2-4.9 without crits or boosts. If this crits and you use relics etc you are looking at about 9k damage, if you time this with a critted merc slash you are looking at 13k damage in 3 sec Now this just plain stupid, regardless or whether or not the player is dumb enough to be hit by the full channel it forces the enemy to use a cc or stun or sprint at NO COST to the sentinel. Quite simply the 15% passive buff given must be removed."

 

The root on masterstrike is currently deep in the combat tree, which means that only 1 of three trees has access to it. And combat probably remains the least played tree at this time. Masterstrike was widely considered useless in pvp before, and people complained bitterly. Now it has a role, and people still complain.

"Feel free to tell me i'm wrong this is simply my opinion =)"

 

Some good points, but I do believe your taking it a little far. I also agree that they should be kings of 1v1 damage, I believe this is our niche. However, I feel that the proposed changes will remove even that from us.

 

I notice that people often are taking aspects of all 3 trees that they hate, and are combining it into a "OMG SO OP" class. A Sentinel with the reduced cd on interrupts and the use of point blank force charge as an interrupt does not have access to the root on masterstrike, or o 6k force sweeps, or vice versa.

 

Having said all this, here are my proposed changes:

 

1. People need to stop complaining about every thing.

2. Guarded by the force should be either shortened or removed, but either way, compensation will be required, reduced cd on camo sounds good.

3. I am conflicted about this one. Masterstrike can do incredible damage, BUT, it remains highly situational, and, the true monster is only available in 1 of the 3 trees. I personally believe it is fine as is, but a SLIGHT nerf would be acceptable.

 

I am curious which tree people believe is OP. Is it the self healing dots and a wider range of interrupts? Is it the 6k sweeps? (which have a very long windup time, good players can see them coming a mile away) Is it the root on masterstrike with 100% armor penetration? (it only last 6 seconds, pop a cd or a cc and its over)

 

These are the opinions of a player who loves his Sents/ Maras, but has played all the classes, and loves them all. Feel free to discuss, but please keep it respectful.