Stealth Nerf to RS?

[Humankeg]

In 4 pc rakata and rest BM gear, I regularly hit 5k+ (topping out at 6.7k) prior to 1.2.

 

With the damage buff I should have got from the expertise buff, I am now topping out at 4.2k (highest was 4167).

 

Still using the same gear set up, minus the few mods I changed to get my gear back to their original state.

 

Was there something I missed on RS, or are the few mods (power/surge) that I used have (now have accuracy in some) really give a 15% damage boost?

Edited April 15, 2012 by Humankeg

[Assaultrooper]

In 4 pc rakata and rest BM gear, I regularly hit 5k+ (topping out at 6.7k) prior to 1.2.

 

With the damage buff I should have got from the expertise buff, I am now topping out at 4.2k (highest was 4167).

 

Still using the same gear set up, minus the few mods I changed to get my gear back to their original state.

 

Was there something I missed on RS, or are the few mods (power/surge) that I used have (now have accuracy in some) really give a 15% damage boost?

 

Maybe it is those rakata pieces (+everyone having BM gear now) Every rakata piece is abou 3% less damage you are dealing, comparatively that is.

 

Again most probably you are seen just people getting geared up. That said.. I critted 6k this morning

[Humankeg]

Well, even if I am losing damage using rakata over bm gear, I still gained an overall buff from expertise (from 10.7% to 17%) while my damage mitigation still stayed the same.

 

if anything, I should have been topping out regularly at 5.6k+ or so. And I know I have faced some very undergeared players.

[exphryl]

Well, even if I am losing damage using rakata over bm gear, I still gained an overall buff from expertise (from 10.7% to 17%) while my damage mitigation still stayed the same.

 

if anything, I should have been topping out regularly at 5.6k+ or so. And I know I have faced some very undergeared players.

 

Could try replacing all your Rakata mods with BM armoring/ mods /enhacnements and see? (Since the set bonus is tied to the gear with Tier 1 you can do that just fine)

 

I know just in the Eliminator PvP Gear I can get a 5K most matches, but usually however around 4.5-4.7k on full BM Geared players.

[theangryllama]

Well, even if I am losing damage using rakata over bm gear, I still gained an overall buff from expertise (from 10.7% to 17%) while my damage mitigation still stayed the same.

 

if anything, I should have been topping out regularly at 5.6k+ or so. And I know I have faced some very undergeared players.

 

Thing is those in full BM gear gained another 5% or so again over what you gained. Pretty much there is so much expertise on gear now (using 4x rakata your missing out on 400 expertise) and it scales so well that pvping in pve gear now is utterly gimping yourself.

 

If you like the set boni better than do as ex suggested and put your PvP mods into your rakata gear.

[Humankeg]

Thing is those in full BM gear gained another 5% or so again over what you gained. Pretty much there is so much expertise on gear now (using 4x rakata your missing out on 400 expertise) and it scales so well that pvping in pve gear now is utterly gimping yourself.

 

If you like the set boni better than do as ex suggested and put your PvP mods into your rakata gear.

 

Damage reduction didn't increase though. Only damage done (mostly). ANd this isn't about using pve gear vs using pvp gear.

 

With the expertise buff I gained roughly 7% damage done. At most, fully pvp geared players gained 1-3% damage reduction, meaning my buff to damage from expertise still means I should be doing more damage, not less. But I am also fighting people that are not very geared at all, yet my RS's aren't hitting what they should.

 

Just did about 7 more wz's, and highest hit was still about 4200. And I doubt that changing the 5 or 6 mods from accuracy back to power/surge will make the difference. I also am running a slightly different spec, which also increases my RS hits even more so.

[theangryllama]

Damage reduction didn't increase though. Only damage done (mostly). ANd this isn't about using pve gear vs using pvp gear.

 

With the expertise buff I gained roughly 7% damage done. At most, fully pvp geared players gained 1-3% damage reduction, meaning my buff to damage from expertise still means I should be doing more damage, not less. But I am also fighting people that are not very geared at all, yet my RS's aren't hitting what they should.

 

Just did about 7 more wz's, and highest hit was still about 4200. And I doubt that changing the 5 or 6 mods from accuracy back to power/surge will make the difference. I also am running a slightly different spec, which also increases my RS hits even more so.

 

I see what your saying now.. a full BM gained 6.7% damage reduction (7.2% damage gained) with the scaling change so unless you've added some expertise mods you shouldn't have gained the 7% your saying (note all I have to go off is the maths here from http://dulfy.net/2012/03/22/pvp-gearing-in-1-2/) as they increased the gap over you by an additional 200 expertise (4 pieces x 50 expertise pre 1.2 now 4 pieces x 100 expertise post 1.2) so they now have more expertise that benefits from higher expertise scaling so they should definately logically be taking less damage than previously (as damage reduced now scales exactly to counteract damage gained)

[Osicat]

You do it wrong in my opinion if you dont use pvp gear now. The expertice is so strong and I must say that I think a non Termal Detonator build pyro is weak now in 1.2, you simply need the burst.

 

Dont think RS been nerfed thu in any way and in purst potensial I accualy feel buffed in 1.2. In pre 1.2 i did run 8-6-27 and was wery dependant on PPM, best rs I had then was around 6,8k.

 

Now i run 7-3-31 and I say my burst is stronger. Had RS hit for 5,5k at best in pvp gear but consider same target when 1 st RS landed had dots from cylinder and IM ticking for ~1,5k. 5,5k RS + 5k TD + dots, then 1,5 GC later its 3k+ RP + dots and then another 5k RS. I never feel so strong as I do now in full BM expe gear with termal detonator and 60% RS proc chance on RP.

 

Did WZ,s most of the day yesterday and had 5k crit medal awarded due to RS in most of them. Had a few termal detonator hit for 5k+ aswell.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Osicat

[Theology]

7/3/31. Interesting.

 

Do you notice the lack of crit chance? That's what..9% on fire and 3% on tech? Seems like alot..

[Osicat]

Yeah it hurt a little but you get 1% from burnout, also the extra shields keep you alive (energy rebounder). also with good hear TD hit like a fking truck filled with bricks combined with RS. You still have the cd 25% crit and with pvp gear RS is on 15% extra crit.

 

With the area of death from above nerf aoe is alot less interesting and the buff to our single target nuke (it is a buff and a big fat one aswell) our "nuke the annoying healer" play ia alot more important.

 

I play more like ramp up all on 1 target then nuke it now. Also our strength in target changing can even take the best healer off guard. Save TS, land a RS on one player and some rapid, have healer start heal him. Then change to the healer, unload all IM, TD, RS + dots with u trinket and crit cd and you most of the times get him.

 

This is just out of my experience but wirk fine for me. on single target I experienced numbers on 1 target after 1st RS landed in 6 sec around 12-18k (2x RS 1x TD 1x RP 1xFB + dots.) if they still alive after this your 6 sec PPM is up again and with 45% chanse on new RS a FB+ RS is a GG.

[Hokonoso]

Damage reduction didn't increase though. Only damage done (mostly). ANd this isn't about using pve gear vs using pvp gear.

 

With the expertise buff I gained roughly 7% damage done. At most, fully pvp geared players gained 1-3% damage reduction, meaning my buff to damage from expertise still means I should be doing more damage, not less. But I am also fighting people that are not very geared at all, yet my RS's aren't hitting what they should.

 

Just did about 7 more wz's, and highest hit was still about 4200. And I doubt that changing the 5 or 6 mods from accuracy back to power/surge will make the difference. I also am running a slightly different spec, which also increases my RS hits even more so.

 

ur looking at healing not dmg reduction, u only gained a tiny bit more dmg than reduction with this patch, but you lost an arseload of surge which is why you do way less dmg. want to hit for 6k? removd ALL your gear with power/surge, get ur bonus tech dmg to about 800 and crit multiplier to 75-77% and you will see those 6k crits again.

 

also keep in mind, no one is undergeared anymore, just hit 50 on an alt and he has more expertise than my PT due to buying the full recruit set, meaning you will be hitting them for less than you would pre-patch, meaning everyone has more mitigation now than 1.1.5.

[Humankeg]

I see what your saying now.. a full BM gained 6.7% damage reduction (7.2% damage gained) with the scaling change so unless you've added some expertise mods you shouldn't have gained the 7% your saying (note all I have to go off is the maths here from http://dulfy.net/2012/03/22/pvp-gearing-in-1-2/) as they increased the gap over you by an additional 200 expertise (4 pieces x 50 expertise pre 1.2 now 4 pieces x 100 expertise post 1.2) so they now have more expertise that benefits from higher expertise scaling so they should definately logically be taking less damage than previously (as damage reduced now scales exactly to counteract damage gained)

 

Incorrect.

 

Damage buff to players like myself (500 expertise) went from 10.76% (guesstimating) to 17% with out changing any gear, due to the gear itself changing after the patch. I used to be at about 500 expertise, after the patch it jumped to about 770. Damage mitigation rose 1%-2%, if even that, because damage done increases much faster than damage mitigated by expertise.

 

So logically, everyone is taking more damage now, not less (unless fighting someone with no expertise.

 

And seeing as I have fought people with little to no expertise, my damage should have gone up 7% (plus the amount I gained from the new spec minus the amount lost from having accuracy mods again); yet I have noticed my max hits have dropped ~10%-15%.

 

You do it wrong in my opinion if you dont use pvp gear now. The expertice is so strong and I must say that I think a non Termal Detonator build pyro is weak now in 1.2, you simply need the burst.

 

Dont think RS been nerfed thu in any way and in purst potensial I accualy feel buffed in 1.2. In pre 1.2 i did run 8-6-27 and was wery dependant on PPM, best rs I had then was around 6,8k.

 

Now i run 7-3-31 and I say my burst is stronger. Had RS hit for 5,5k at best in pvp gear but consider same target when 1 st RS landed had dots from cylinder and IM ticking for ~1,5k. 5,5k RS + 5k TD + dots, then 1,5 GC later its 3k+ RP + dots and then another 5k RS. I never feel so strong as I do now in full BM expe gear with termal detonator and 60% RS proc chance on RP.

 

Did WZ,s most of the day yesterday and had 5k crit medal awarded due to RS in most of them. Had a few termal detonator hit for 5k+ aswell.

 

This discussion isn't about whether pvp gear is better for pvp than pve gear. If you wish to discuss it, please start another thread on that.

 

7/3/31. Interesting.

 

Do you notice the lack of crit chance? That's what..9% on fire and 3% on tech? Seems like alot..

 

To be honest, my overall bursting capabilities seem to be the same minus back-to-back RS procs and heat loss. People still die pretty easily.

 

I just noticed my RS's hitting for significantly less, and the only loss in damage I can figure out was swapping back in my accuracy mods instead of surge/power. Everything else I have (expertise damage buff, new spec) shows I should be doing significantly more damage. I was honestly expecting to be hitting 6k RS's every match and instead it is ~4.2k.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Humankeg

[theangryllama]

Well then as I said all I have to go on is the maths behind it having champion gear still myself... If somehow you defy those mathematics I've got nothing to go on.

[Humankeg]

Well then as I said all I have to go on is the maths behind it having champion gear still myself... If somehow you defy those mathematics I've got nothing to go on.

 

Yea, your math is wrong or you aren't understanding or were unfamiliar with what happened with gear/expertise.

 

If I start with 500 expertise before the patch, I am at 10% bonus damage and mitigation.

 

If you had all your gear in their original setup (meaning the original mods that came with the gear), after the patch you would have went from 500 expertise to about 770. This is with out changing a single piece of gear from before the patch to after the patch.

 

On top of just gaining more expertise, players gained more damage done per expertise they had. Meaning prior to patch, 500 expertise gave 10% damage bonus and after the patch 500 expertise would give 15% (guessing on the exact amount here, but its a significant boost). This increase came from the change on the diminishing returns given from expertise, as BW said they were changing.

 

So two players with 500 expertise each prior to patch, would have 10% damage and mitigation. After the patch, they would sit at 17% damage bonus, and 11% (guessing on exact amount here, but its very close) damage mitigation. When fighting each other, even though both gained damage mitigation, the overall damage done by each player would increase anyways, due to +7% gain on bonus damage, compared to only about a +1%-2% on damage mitigation.

 

This is why healers are getting destroyed, and players in general are dying much faster: expertise grants a much higher amount of damage bonus, but not damage reduction.

 

Hope that cleared it up for ya.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Humankeg

[theangryllama]

No thats not correct... the formulas were changed in such a way that if 2 players have identical expertise no damage is gained or lost.

 

Prior to 1.2 damage reduction slowly outscaled damage gained. If both are at 10% then a 1000 damage attack would be upped to 1100 and then reduced to 990 (10% gained then reduced by 10%)

 

Now they exactly cancel each other out. So yes... your damage gain will look higher than your damage reduction but if you work out the maths on that theoretical 1000 damage attack it will in fact completely cancel out.

 

The only purpose of expertise now is a slight (as in 1-2%) advantage for increasing your gear from recruit -> BM -> WH and to massively punish those who are not in pvp gear (0 expertise vs full BM is now 20% more damage taken and ~17% less damage taken)

 

This is using maths and formula from sithwarrior... people who sit there a hell of a lot smarter than the both of us and figure out the formula behind this stuff

 

From the dulfy page i linked earlier

 

PvP Damage Bonus % = 50 * ( 1 – ( 1 – ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( Expertise / 50 ) / 0.8 ) ) (source: Kor from sithwarrior.com)

PVP Damage Reduction % = 100 – 100 / (1 + PvP Damage Bonus %/100)

PvP Healing Boost % = 30 * ( 1 – ( 1 – ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( Expertise / 50 ) / 1.5 ) )

 

You can see that damage reduction is inversely proportional to damage gained in a way that when both applied they completely negate each other. Unless you are sitting at a pvp damage bonus of 25% you will not see a 5% difference between the 2 numbers for this to still remain true. I (and I'm sure most of the others who enjoy looking at the numbers behind things like this) would be interested to see a SS if you are somehow the 1 person this differs for

 

TLDR : If 2 people are in the exact same gear as each other they gained a whole whopping 1.3% or so extra damage against each other than prior to 1.2. This is not because the damage increase formula was changed, but because the amount of damage reduction was reduced slightly to make it exactly compliment it rather than overtake it

Edited April 17, 2012 by theangryllama

[Humankeg]

No thats not correct... the formulas were changed in such a way that if 2 players have identical expertise no damage is gained or lost.

 

Prior to 1.2 damage reduction slowly outscaled damage gained. If both are at 10% then a 1000 damage attack would be upped to 1100 and then reduced to 990 (10% gained then reduced by 10%)

 

Now they exactly cancel each other out. So yes... your damage gain will look higher than your damage reduction but if you work out the maths on that theoretical 1000 damage attack it will in fact completely cancel out.

 

The only purpose of expertise now is a slight (as in 1-2%) advantage for increasing your gear from recruit -> BM -> WH and to massively punish those who are not in pvp gear (0 expertise vs full BM is now 20% more damage taken and ~17% less damage taken)

 

This is using maths and formula from sithwarrior... people who sit there a hell of a lot smarter than the both of us and figure out the formula behind this stuff

 

From the dulfy page i linked earlier

 

PvP Damage Bonus % = 50 * ( 1 – ( 1 – ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( Expertise / 50 ) / 0.8 ) ) (source: Kor from sithwarrior.com)

PVP Damage Reduction % = 100 – 100 / (1 + PvP Damage Bonus %/100)

PvP Healing Boost % = 30 * ( 1 – ( 1 – ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( Expertise / 50 ) / 1.5 ) )

 

You can see that damage reduction is inversely proportional to damage gained in a way that when both applied they completely negate each other. Unless you are sitting at a pvp damage bonus of 25% you will not see a 5% difference between the 2 numbers for this to still remain true. I (and I'm sure most of the others who enjoy looking at the numbers behind things like this) would be interested to see a SS if you are somehow the 1 person this differs for

 

TLDR : If 2 people are in the exact same gear as each other they gained a whole whopping 1.3% or so extra damage against each other than prior to 1.2. This is not because the damage increase formula was changed, but because the amount of damage reduction was reduced slightly to make it exactly compliment it rather than overtake it

 

Incorrect; the way expertise works is the way I mentioned it. You gain more damage bonus than damage reduction. Meaning from pre patch and post patch, everyone does more damage (take everyone with a grain of salt btw).

 

I was incorrect in my estimations of damage reduction (it is a little better than I thought) but still pretty close. I went from 10.75% bonus damage and damage reduction, to 16% bonus damage and 13.8% damage reduction, with out chaning a single piece of gear. This means, if I were to fight against myself, I would be doing an extra 2.2% (estimate) damage, and take 2.2% more damage.

 

This is only amplified by people with little to no expertise.

 

For arguements sake, say I was hitting 5k on players with no expertise, pre patch. That means with a 10.75% damage boost (on players with no expertise) I was hitting 5k. After the patch, the damage boost goes up to 16%, meaning a 6% gain.

 

Again, I shoudl have gained a damage boost to RS, not a nerf. So I still tryign to figure this out as to why my RS's are hitting for far, far less. Today I don't think I broke 4k even, let alone 5k like before. Regardless of what the exact numbers of the math is, my RS should be hitting for more on average, not less. As expertise across the board for everyone, is allowing EVERYONE to hit harder, not softer.

 

Instead of trying to correct people giving the correct information Theangryllama, please gather the correct information. You can just look at your expertise tool tip on your character and see that you gain more damage bonus (significantly more btw) than damage reduction. Prior to patch, they were both equal. Again, this means more damage.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Humankeg

[theangryllama]

I will just simply say this and laugh at what passes for mathematics skills at whatever country it is you hail from.

 

The total % is not figured out by going 16% - 13.8% = 2.2% bonus!

 

The total % bonus is figured out by going

1000 * 16% = 1160

1160 * 86.2% (100-13.8%) = 999.92 damage! Completely cancelled out!

[Humankeg]

I will just simply say this and laugh at what passes for mathematics skills at whatever country it is you hail from.

 

The total % is not figured out by going 16% - 13.8% = 2.2% bonus!

 

The total % bonus is figured out by going

1000 * 16% = 1160

1160 * 86.2% (100-13.8%) = 999.92 damage! Completely cancelled out!

 

And I will just simply say this and laugh at what passes as reading comprehension and mathematical skills at what ever 3rd world country you must be from.

 

Two players, with exactly the same gear, will do more damage against each other post patch then pre-patch, with no changes to the gear. With the scaling change expertise recieved, damage has increased.

 

I don't need math to figure it out. Just simple logic. You are bringing up a match problem that has little to do with what we are talking about.

 

Hell, why do you think so many people are raging over "glass canon fights" and people dying so quickly? Because people are doing MORE DAMAGE after the patch, because expertise increases damage more-so than damage reduction. Just read the patch notes ffs, instead of acting like a complete twit on the forums.

 

Edit: since I would rather just see you eat crow, Ill throw in the math for you:

 

100 base damage

500 expertise pre patch (10% damage reduc, 10% damage bonus)

770 post patch (16% damage bonus, 13.8% damage reduction)

 

pre patch

100 + (100*0.1) = 110

110 * (0.9) = 99

Damage dealt = 99

 

post patch

100 + (100*0.16) = 116

116 * (0.862) = 99.99

 

Does 99 = 99.99?

 

NO.

 

99.99 > 99

 

I also would like to add that pre-patch, the more expertise you had, the more damage you actually mitigated OVER what the damage bonus was. For example, with 50% expertise buff:

 

100 base damage * (50%) = 150%

150 * .5 = 75

Actual damage = 75

 

Expertise does not work in this manner any more because of the buff bonus damage has gained, and the fact it scales faster than damage reduction. Post patch, with 50% expertise buff to damage, the actual damage will still be around 100 (due to the changes made).

 

If post patch damage is higher than that means its a damage.... BUFF. Now try the math with someone wearing no expertise vs someone with 770 expertise, and see how much damage increases. Like I have said from the begining. My RS's should be hitting for more, not less.

 

but its ok, keep trying to convince everyone that is getting destroyed in pvp right now (healers and new players for starters) that damage hasn't increased at all. I suggest starting a thread on it actually.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Humankeg