This game badly needs mods and macros.

[Raelstrom]

Players who want these tools are raid leaders, they want to weed out bads and recruit good players for raiding. If you don't want these tools then don't use them simple as that. Others want these tools, and swtor should allow addons which they have been saying they will, just not at launch

 

Yes, the elitists want to tell everyone how to play and that if you play to have fun you are just not good enough to play with them. The mods are not NEEDED they are just a crutch to validate peoples need to stroke their numbers.

[Colobulous]

If you want a second wow, why dont you keep playing wow? I dont understand people like you, if you like Hamburgers do you then also demand that chicken wings are made like them?

 

Well, I certainly demand that my Chicken Wings be cooked, cleaned, and not served frozen after being dropped in the dirt. Much the same demands I make for a hamburger.

 

I almost wish I didn't have to try to get people like you, who think that driving people with valid complaints away is the proper course of action, to understand the concerns, but well, it seems I have to keep trying again and again.

 

 

Do you really think a bad player that relies on a meter does watch his mistakes? They dont, they just know 1 thing "most dps, most healing".

 

Then be smarter than them, as either a raider, or a raid leader.

 

It's not that hard.

 

Go play a random dungeon at wow, random raid and you will see what I mean. Ofc a top 20 guild would understand how to read a meter correctly, but why ruin the game for 99% of the players then just because 1 % is competetive?

 

Go play any game, if you can find somebody, you will find the same problems. It'll be harder for you to control for proportions since there is a selection principle involved, but you won't see any great differences.

 

But aslong random people can flame others because of such meters I give my veto. Wow was destroyed by it, pretty much every MMO that I did play was - there must be another way.

 

You can't stop people from being a jerk. With or without meters. But I'd rather be criticized for objective measurements than anything else.

 

Such comments are so low... what has wow done to players. Things like "bads", "noobs" etc. all the flaming, I dont get it. Does nobody play an MMO for fun anymore?

 

I see just as much flaming from persons espousing anti-WOW attitudes. But people's idea of fun does vary. This happens, not just in MMOs, but all sorts of other places.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Colobulous

[Bwcultist]

Tools are tools, If a guild leader or raid leader isnt using the tool properly is that the tools fault? No, if your gm/rl can't see that people do more dmg on certain fights or less healing due to nature of fights. Then you need to find a new one. I've lead about 20 guilds into raiding and each time you must know the in's and out's of the fight and understand melee/ranged do different things ie picking up adds switching targets moving out of ranged fire or melee fire depends always on fight.

[amitylane]

Alright, I guess I'll get in on this conversation late. Got nothing else to do while waiting in my queue.

 

First off, let me give you the addon author perspective. I've been an addon author for WoW for almost 5 years now, and while I won't single out what addons I've created/worked on suffice it to say that they have a "healthy user base". It is pretty cool to see things that started off as a simple side-project for my own purposes turn into a part of the game I love, but problems come with it as well.

 

Addons start life as things we share with the community because we enjoy them and think others might as well. Unfortunately, they can grow to become detrimental to the very community they were intended to help in the first place. People become dependent on them, then when there's the tiniest issue with one of them (bug, oversight, API change, simple versioning that makes people think they're no longer functioning, etc.) people get angry. They feel entitled to it. What started off as something just for aesthetic or quality-of-life purposes has become a "necessity".

 

Unfortunately, this "necessity" feel can actually affect the game itself. While no addon is truly "necessary", when allowed access to certain game information they can trivialize the difficulty of the game. A prime example of this was an addon called AVR that was created during Wrath. It could simulate the appearance of drawing things in the game world to show people where to stand during various times in boss encounters. It removed all need for thought from the player in PvE. Blizzard realized this, and promptly broke the API functions required for it to work.

 

It doesn't end there, though. Addon functionality doesn't need to be that drastic or obvious to affect the game itself. Another example is an addon called Power Auras, which allows you to create graphics that pop up on your screen in response to certain conditions you specify (such as PROCs, cooldowns, debuffs, etc). This type of notification became so ubiquitous that Blizzard felt the need to add their own version to the game so that people without the addon wouldn't feel handicapped.

 

Boss mods are an area where addons have actually affected the design of the game. Mods like BigWigs and Deadly Boss Mods simplified encounters and became so popular that Blizzard has started to design boss encounters under the assumption that everyone is using them. This makes them an actual necessity, and this is where having the ability to create addons fails. They no longer become a personal preference. They become required (well, maybe not actually required, but the difference in difficulty between using them and not using them becomes so great that people will always use them).

People are like electricity: they choose the path of least resistance.

So, the grand question with addons in a game always comes down to one simple thing: Where do you draw the line? What information do you allow addons access to? What functions do you allow addons to manipulate? This may seem like a very simple thing, but it isn't. Part of addon creation is exploring the realm of what is possible with addons, which can lead to people using the existing framework in unintended ways to create unacceptable results (the original Decursive, AVR, etc).

 

Personally, I think that if SW:TOR decides to allow UI modification, it should be carefully designed for aesthetic purposes only. Don't give addons access to things like combat information to create encounter addons. I don't see any harm with changing the look-and-feel of the current information BioWare allows us to have, but I do have a problem with us creating our own information with addons to trivialize the game...and coming from me that's saying a lot, because as an addon author that works on addons that do exactly that I'm essentially shooting myself in the foot.

[Bwcultist]

I enjoyed your wall o text

[ITSAmeee]

Addons doesn't mean Damage Meters. They are not synonymous as far as I know.

 

Implementing and allowing the development and use of addons, doesn't necessarily means that also Damage Meters will come (as in: you need a damn combat log to begin with).

 

And bare with me, while I do agree a combat log is needed and that I wouldn't mind a Damage Meter addon coming out of it, there are so many other things that addons and the community can improve on the absolutely lackluster UI and UI Customization of this game that I don't even know where to start from to give you examples.

 

No wait, I do know: Auction House.

 

Addons would hopefully allow a full rework of the Auction House, because that's what's needed.

 

Please also understand that the User Interface is a major aspect of a game, and since few guys (Artists + Developers that created the vanilla one) can't possibly satisfy the needs and expectations of millions of players, it makes really no sense with today's technology to not allow them to create/modify the interface at their own leisure.

 

As a Healer (for example), if I wanted to click so much on my screen, I would be playing Bejeweled I think.

[Thurgrayden]

I think I miss Bartender the most.

 

I'm hoping that they left the UI shoddy in order to speed along other parts of the development, and that they plan on coming back (soon!) and actually implementing one that works.

[MrSarcastic]

You're right, it does kind of suck.

[Bwcultist]

I actually enjoyed lvling without addon's was nice not having to mess around with them. But when it comes to raiding you need simple addons to help you out. Im not talking boss mods or that make the game way easy but meters for dps/dmg taken/heals and what not be amazing

[Jaku]

Pretty sure Bioware has said addons and macros are coming later.

 

Hopefully by the time the majority of the playerbase is around level 50.

[Colobulous]

Alright, I guess I'll get in on this conversation late. Got nothing else to do while waiting in my queue.

 

You're getting in this redundantly, by repeating the same soliloquy you've had before.

 

I just hope you're not spam-quoted as many times as before, because that prevented any actual dialogue, which has contributing to you posting the same flawed reasoning instead of evolving it.

 

Addons start life as things we share with the community because we enjoy them and think others might as well. Unfortunately, they can grow to become detrimental to the very community they were intended to help in the first place. People become dependent on them, then when there's the tiniest issue with one of them (bug, oversight, API change, simple versioning that makes people think they're no longer functioning, etc.) people get angry. They feel entitled to it. What started off as something just for aesthetic or quality-of-life purposes has become a "necessity".

 

Your reasoning is flawed, perhaps, because you're not aware of something...that any patch change can cause the exact same outrage. If somebody develops a preferred build or playstyle, regardless of any addons, if the developers make a change to that, people get upset in the exact same way.

 

That's been my experience anyway.

 

It doesn't end there, though. Addon functionality doesn't need to be that drastic or obvious to affect the game itself. Another example is an addon called Power Auras, which allows you to create graphics that pop up on your screen in response to certain conditions you specify (such as PROCs, cooldowns, debuffs, etc). This type of notification became so ubiquitous that Blizzard felt the need to add their own version to the game so that people without the addon wouldn't feel handicapped.

 

No, they felt the need to implement it...because it was a damn good idea. You do know that Power Auras worked off data that was deliberately exposed, and information that was already shown, but you know what? Power Auras was a better presentation than the default way was.

 

Boss mods are an area where addons have actually affected the design of the game. Mods like BigWigs and Deadly Boss Mods simplified encounters and became so popular that Blizzard has started to design boss encounters under the assumption that everyone is using them.

 

Source for this claim?

 

Or are you just going to say "Everybody knows!" instead?

[RachelAnne]

Tools are tools, If a guild leader or raid leader isnt using the tool properly is that the tools fault? No, if your gm/rl can't see that people do more dmg on certain fights or less healing due to nature of fights. Then you need to find a new one. I've lead about 20 guilds into raiding and each time you must know the in's and out's of the fight and understand melee/ranged do different things ie picking up adds switching targets moving out of ranged fire or melee fire depends always on fight.

 

This is not about guilds.

 

If I join a guild like I did at wow BC, then for a reason. If I join a competetive guild then I do know people watch me and I agree to their Terms of gameplay.

 

But what about the casuals, those people who are the majority in any MMO? Should they also be measured by such tools every time they play? I dont think so.

 

It should be everyone´s own decision if he wants to be measured or not. Go play at a prof guild and give access to your acc, addons, or whatever. But if you just play casual then you should have the option to turn such things off.

[Bwcultist]

This is not about guilds.

 

If I join a guild like I did at wow BC, then for a reason. If I join a competetive guild then I do know people watch me and I agree to their Terms of gameplay.

 

But what about the casuals, those people who are the majority in any MMO? Should they also be measured by such tools every time they play? I dont think so.

 

It should be everyone´s own decision if he wants to be measured or not. Go play at a prof guild and give access to your acc, addons, or whatever. But if you just play casual then you should have the option to turn such things off.

 

Guilds are for like minded people, if a bunch of casuals want to raid go for it no addons, no one is saying they have to dl addons. But if a casual wants to join a group of "hardcore or semi hard core" then they are joining that guild full knowledge they going to be judged on a skill basis. So if you not into that judging then don't join, people will group together with like minded players.

[Colobulous]

But what about the casuals, those people who are the majority in any MMO? Should they also be measured by such tools every time they play? I dont think so.

 

And they won't be, unless they choose to do something where it's going to happen, like say a raiding situation.

 

It should be everyone´s own decision if he wants to be measured or not. Go play at a prof guild and give access to your acc, addons, or whatever. But if you just play casual then you should have the option to turn such things off.

 

You have the right to not try to experience the difficult content where such would be expected.

 

Don't expect much sympathy for you not wanting to be measured if you choose to group with me though.

[amitylane]

You're getting in this redundantly, by repeating the same soliloquy you've had before.

 

I just hope you're not spam-quoted as many times as before, because that prevented any actual dialogue, which has contributing to you posting the same flawed reasoning instead of evolving it.

Ugh, you and your ad hominem stuff again. I reposted this simply because the old forums were blanked and nobody (including you) has yet to present an actual counterpoint argument instead of just essentially saying "you're wrong".

 

Your reasoning is flawed, perhaps, because you're not aware of something...that any patch change can cause the exact same outrage. If somebody develops a preferred build or playstyle, regardless of any addons, if the developers make a change to that, people get upset in the exact same way.

 

That's been my experience anyway.

That's exactly what I was talking about in that section. Did you even read it?

No, they felt the need to implement it...because it was a damn good idea. You do know that Power Auras worked off data that was deliberately exposed, and information that was already shown, but you know what? Power Auras was a better presentation than the default way was.

"Better" is subjective, and all addons present a different presentation of information already available. That's how they work.

 

Source for this claim?

 

Or are you just going to say "Everybody knows!" instead?

It was a GC post sometime during Wrath. I'll see if I can't dig it up. It's pretty common knowledge amongst addon authors, but I'll try to find the specific post when I get time.

[RachelAnne]

Guilds are for like minded people, if a bunch of casuals want to raid go for it no addons, no one is saying they have to dl addons. But if a casual wants to join a group of "hardcore or semi hard core" then they are joining that guild full knowledge they going to be judged on a skill basis. So if you not into that judging then don't join, people will group together with like minded players.

 

Do you even know how addons work? I think you dont.... It does not matter if a guy has an Addon or not, he will still be tracked by the addons of the others.

 

Also I think you did not understand what I was trying to say. I said that if a player wants to join an elitist guild then this player agree´s to their terms of play. So if I have a guild of professionels then I do want they use addons, in wow we used some raid tools when I did the job, it was a big help with assigning targets and this.

A casual would never apply to such a guild tbh.

 

But if a casual does join a random raid, dungeon etc. then he doesnt want to play professionel. This is the whole problem. In wow you were measured if you did a random 5 men, if you did a lfg raid or anything like that. This should not happen, people can do in their guilds whatever they want, I dont care but outside they should not.

[_Jazz]

First of all...

 

Could the anti-damage-meter-people stop with the "no addons!!"-crap. The community managers will read through it and go, "oh, people really don't want addons huh?". What I believe you mean to say is this - "We want addons! But only cosmetic ones (changing fonts, textures behind frames etc, scale, rotate, move etc.)!"

 

That being said, once a long time ago, I moved into a new place, and wasn't allowed to paint the walls. Now, when it comes to the SWTOR UI there seem to be a lot of different views on the matter. A lot of people are begging for the option to use ui addons, to improve their experience. And likewise a lot of people seem to be begging for Bioware not to implement the use of addons, because it will turn the game into Rift, with 3-button-macro-rotations, and stuff like that.

 

As I see it, not allowing addons in a PC MMO in 2012 is beyond laughable. It really is!

 

Let me tell you about my first encounters with UI addons. Or actualy, let me skip forward a bit, because it's not that exciting. So there I was, fooling around with all kinds of different UI addons, trying to make the User Interface that was indeed tailored to my class, playstyle, spec and so on and so forth, when it hit me. I was having a blast! Yeah the endresult was something I ended up loving, as well as quite a few other people (which is always nice), but the process of "building" my UI really scratched my ******* the right way.

 

So I kept playing around with it. Eventualy got into changing things here and there, in the code of the addons. After that I started making my own. Further down the timeline I ended up teaching myself C++, and various other coding languages online, through Google and Youtube, in order to be able to build and design my own games. This summer I'm starting up my new education, being studying Game Design at the local university.

 

If it wasn't for UI addons in MMOs I wouldn't have realized my "dream," and would instead have chased a path I wasn't truly interested in. The point here is that coding and game design can be extremly hard to get into! But UI addons (for me at least) was the best kind of gateway-drug imaginable. It wasn't so advanced that it scared or demoralized me, yet it opened up knowledge and understanding of numerous paths online, for me to endeavour onto, trying to end up living off of doing what I love.

 

So come on Bioware. If not for us, then for the industry itself. Let the kids fool around with stuff like this. Let them open their eyes, and realize that making games, or work as an artist on games, is indeed very possible!

 

Enough about me though. Lets talk UI and addons.

 

There is (hopefuly) no doubt that UI addons shouldn't be allowed to alter things in a way that gives you a stupid edge. I'm talking about the following things here:

 

 

• Allow people to press one button, and dictate the following X global cooldowns. X =/= 1.
  
• Allow people to use 'time' in macros. Example; "Use X ability, wait 3 seconds, then use Y ability.

 

 

I know most of those things are macro-related. But keep in mind that most UI addons which gives you an unfair edge in one way or another, is doing so by either fooling around with the hardcoded game code, or exploiding macros.

 

What DO people need/want UI addons for then? Well, let me give you an example that a lot of you will hate. But trust me when I'm saying this, it's the best way for me to explain what I'm getting at.

 

Here's a link to a bunch of pictures of my old World of Warcraft User Interface, on my old guilds forum.

 

If you compare those pictures to the standard untouched World of Warcraft interface, then you'll notice that I changed almost everything. But what did I really change? Well, mostly where stuff is. I placed things where I wanted them to be. Where it made sense for me. Not where someone chose to place them, so that they would work okayish with every single type of advanced class/spec/role.

 

But Jazz, you've got access to information that isn't available without the use of those UI addons. Yes, you're right. This information is stuff like a Threat Meter, a Damage Meter and Procs. And what's the deal with that anyway? Is it a problem that someone can see how little dps you're pulling? I get it, we don't want SWTOR to turn into the biggest theorycrafting elitist raiding game southwest of World of Warcraft. I remember back before Damage Meters were even introduced to World of Warcraft. It was fun. But this section of the post isn't about Damage Meters or Threat Meters. It's about being able to place your bars where you want them. Scale things to your liking. Remove things you do not care about. Change the texture used behind bars, player/party frames and your map. Change the font used and so on and so forth. And that is all cosmetic, so I don't see the argument against allowing that.

 

Also I sort of remember Bioware mentioning that there wouldn't be allowed the use of UI addons at launch. That hopefuly means that they're just busy, and maybe a couple of months down the road, we'll get access to addons.

 

By the way, do you guys realize the size of the various UI addon dev communities spread across various MMOs?

 

Enough nonsense. You want a SWTOR related example of what I would use UI addons for? Fine! As a Bounty Hunter Mercenary, I'd like to design a User Interface that actualy gives a GOOD visual indication of how many stacks of Heat Signiture are on my target, as well as keep track of Target Lock. What SWTOR's User Interface truly fails at, is allowing people to be aware of, and keep check of, buffs, debuffs and procs. Enjoy removing debuffs as a healer guys.

 

I for one truly hope that Bioware some time realize that we spend unreal ammounts of time on these kind of games. And as such, what we have to look at, and the way it works due to how and where, is a big deal. Let people filter the information that they do not want/need, as well as scale/move/visualy redesign the informaiton that they do want/need. A good User Interface is (by me) determined by a few things. Lets list them.

 

 

• How well the information the player needs to be able to navigate the game, is brought to the player
  
• How visualy and cosmeticly pleasing it is

 

 

These things are very very subjective. And that's my point, thank you very much. My girlfriend for one likes her User Interface to be a cluster**** of stuff, where I on the other hand only want the information that is relevant to what I have to do in the game. I for one couildn't care less about having a big circular portrait of my character, target and companions. Let me change that.

 

If you look away from the whole "not having macros issue", then what I'd be doing with a costum built User Interface isn't affecting how I play, but simply how I recieve the information I need from the game, in order to play how I play.

 

Not being allowed the use of (at least) cosmetic addons, is like moving into a new place, and not being able to paint the walls. Now, if you plan on living there for six years, and if the colours of the walls really really annoy you, then that really sucks! Think about that. It's not a problem that will ruin everything. But nonetheless it's sometheing that could easily greaten the experience of a ton of people.

 

Not everyone on SWTOR is a massive fan of blue!

 

What about macros? Yes! We want them! I wish for the implementation of macros. I really do. I'd like to link two things or more together in a macro (giving that only one of them activates the global cooldown). I'd like to be able to make a macro that simply scrolls through the various health potions available in the game. From the most powerful, to the least powerful. Seeing as a macro-system should never allow a player to dictate what happens for more than one single global cooldown, it would simply cycle through the potions, untill it reaches one that I actualy have in my inventory. This way I wont have to have 3-5 different health potions on my bars. I click the macro I've made because I need a potion, and the macro automaticly uses the largest one available.

 

Some people might also like to make a macro that uses a random mount, to spice things up. What's wrong with that? Or some raidleader might like a macro that he can press, that automaticly invites the core raid team to a group. Why not?

Edited December 21, 2011 by _Jazz

[Bwcultist]

thats wow..... bw has no auto group finding or auto raid finding. and again if you want to be casual do casual content it wont affect us. If you want to do harder stuff then be ready to be judged addons or not.

[Colobulous]

Ugh, you and your ad hominem stuff again. I reposted this simply because the old forums were blanked and nobody (including you) has yet to present an actual counterpoint argument instead of just essentially saying "you're wrong".

 

It's against your argument and your position. If I call you names, or attack you personally, that'd be one thing, but this is what you say and do in this thread. Sorry, I when people repeat something they've said before, but not corrected the errors in it, well, I am going to say they really should try to evolve and participate in the dialogue, not just present a sermon from the mount. And half of it was against behavior you didn't do, but the actions of others, which I find objectionable.

 

It's no more an objectionable ad hominum than your gripe here. I might consider you wrong in your complaints, but that's not the same as it being wrong to say.

 

That's exactly what I was talking about in that section. Did you even read it?

 

It seems that you didn't read what I said, because I was pointing out that it has NOTHING to do with Addons, as it is a problem that crops up with things that aren't add-on related.

 

Just wait, a patch will come up, change something, and people will gripe. And it'll have nothing to do with addons.

 

Or go check for some past examples.

 

"Better" is subjective, and all addons present a different presentation of information already available. That's how they work.

 

Better isn't quite as subjective as you might think, there's plenty of times where it is pretty clear we all benefit from improvement.

 

And being able to selectively control what you see...it is better, all around. Putting it front and center, not tucked away over in a corner, out of sight...yeah, it is better that way too.

 

Unless you are hung up on the idea of obscure cues being the challenge in the game, which is not an opinion I share at all. That's like the people who would try to preserve their ancestral cultural institutions.

 

Not at all what they represent it out to be. So when I see that I say... I don't support that ideology at all.

 

It was a GC post sometime during Wrath. I'll see if I can't dig it up. It's pretty common knowledge amongst addon authors, but I'll try to find the specific post when I get time.

 

In my observation, It's a pretty common misrepresentation of what actually occurred, but that doesn't make it the truth, or an accurate description of the statement.

 

What I observed was they realized that the cues and indicators they were giving were not sufficient, and implemented them in a better fashion.

 

Which is an improvement based on the problem DBM exposed to the developers.

 

I will await your finding this quote though, nobody has presented it yet. I'm beginning to think it is a myth.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Colobulous

[Colobulous]

Do you even know how addons work? I think you dont.... It does not matter if a guy has an Addon or not, he will still be tracked by the addons of the others.

 

Do you? It's called the combat log. It has to be part of the game. Otherwise how would the game know what proper health to show for a mob?

 

But if a casual does join a random raid, dungeon etc. then he doesnt want to play professionel. This is the whole problem. In wow you were measured if you did a random 5 men, if you did a lfg raid or anything like that. This should not happen, people can do in their guilds whatever they want, I dont care but outside they should not.

 

Too bad, because you know what? The other individuals in the group have the right to care about what they want. If you don't want them to worry, then choose them more selectively.

 

You do have the right to join in, or leave any group you want, but so do others. And that would include asking you to leave.

[Cliffo-]

I think the game is looking fantastic in almost all regards, but the missing mods and macros certainly need to be added.

[Gair]

Can we please get some damage meters for PVE? What is this nonsense?

[Nylonica]

I wouldn't say it's something that completely ruins the game.

 

It is if you can't read the tooltip on things like Items, skill tree, spells. Plus tiny font in the codex and log journal

[Brool]

Ill post again, I say no to non-bw authored add-ons and damage output meter. Neither are needed in game.

[Rigo]

I hate the UI, I hate it more then WoW's stock UI. I want Macro and Addons bad. I hope for their sake they don't do what trion does and wait 6 months and give the community a very basic API to use.

 

I can deal with the UI for lvling. Theres no way I'm going to heal flashpoints or operations without a movable healing frame and click healing.