So..... What's with all the dislike for Revan?

[Rayla_Felana]

I don't think she mastered the Light-Side. I don't think its possible to master either side unless your someone like Abeloth.

 

It's canon that she mastered the Light Side of the Force, and gained Force Enlightenment.

 

Abeloth didn't master the Dark Side, she was the Dark Side, in pure form.

[Selenial]

Actually, Bane is the weakest member of the Banite Sith because he was the first. And I think you're forgetting that the Sith were fine and flourishing (though there was in-fighting) until Bane started killing a bunch of them. With the successive apprentices being stronger than their masters for over a thousand years, Vader would tear Bane a new one without much trouble at all.

 

Uhm, Revan caused the Jedi Civil War. Revan went to war against the Mandalorians against the Council's orders. Revan persuaded many of the Jedi's promising Knights and apprentices to go to war with him. Revan went into the Unknown Regions and confronted the Sith Empire (that the council had sensed, hence the order not to go to war) and came back and started the Jedi Civil War. It was all Revan's fault (and Vitate's to some extent). There wouldn't have been a Jedi Civil War if Revan had heeded the Council's orders and not gone to war. In fact, that actually shows that Revan was more loyal to the Republic than he was to the Jedi Order. All Revan did was clean up his own damn mess during the events of Knights of the Old Republic.

U lot misunderstood me, i know revan caused it, but it was stated MANY MANY MANY times that people in the galaxy BLAMED the Jedi....

[Darth_Solrac]

Funny thing is, people still refer to Revan as either a Jedi or a Sith, in reality he was neither, he stood alone, Darth Malak said it himself.

 

Hence his uniqueness. Those of us who favor the Sith/Dark Side tend to more fondly remember him as a Dark Jedi, & Dark Lord. I elaborate in my "Revan's true self is Sith/Dark Side" thread. Which I'm surprised you aint jumped on yet.

[Rayla_Felana]

U lot misunderstood me, i know revan caused it, but it was stated MANY MANY MANY times that people in the galaxy BLAMED the Jedi....

 

If this is in reference to Revan remaining a Jedi and being a Jedi Master, the Senate and the Republic forced the Jedi's hand, in reality they went their separate ways, why would the Jedi Order allow the teachings of a man that ignited two wars and almost destroyed both the Order and the Republic? precisely.

[Selenial]

It's canon that she mastered the Light Side of the Force, and gained Force Enlightenment.

 

Abeloth didn't master the Dark Side, she was the Dark Side, in pure form.

 

^^ This.....

She mastered the light side, which may have been why she was better during the emperor fight... (like when she saved revan) when light side your emotions are in control, and like is mentioned, the emperor has an ability, like scourge, to feed off your emotions...... I guess each had their strengths though, and we'll get nowhere arguing who was the better....

Although might I add....

Surik pwns so suck it fanboys

[Selenial]

If this is in reference to Revan remaining a Jedi and being a Jedi Master, the Senate and the Republic forced the Jedi's hand, in reality they went their separate ways, why would the Jedi Order allow the teachings of a man that ignited two wars and almost destroyed both the Order and the Republic? precisely.

 

Nah, I was referring to the bit where they argued revan caused the jedi civil war, in response to me saying the jedi started it, because what i meant was, the people thought the jedi started it

[Rayla_Felana]

Hence his uniqueness. Those of us who favor the Sith/Dark Side tend to more fondly remember him as a Dark Jedi, & Dark Lord. I elaborate in my "Revan's true self is Sith/Dark Side" thread. Which I'm surprised you aint jumped on yet.

 

He didn't believe in either path, that was his problem, and it drove him mad eventually, that and sharing his mind with the Emperor for three centuries.

 

The real Revan would never be a Sith or a Dark Jedi, but he would be a Guardian of the Republic, I think that is far more appropriate than naming him a member of either major sect of Force Users.

[Selenial]

Another reason i preferred surik, is because of a story in the game itself... Where vrook goes into how she fed off her enemies death to become stronger....

It was simply great because it was the first time in a game it was really explained why u gain exp for killing ppl XD

[Darth_Solrac]

He didn't believe in either path, that was his problem, and it drove him mad eventually, that and sharing his mind with the Emperor for three centuries.

 

The real Revan would never be a Sith or a Dark Jedi, but he would be a Guardian of the Republic, I think that is far more appropriate than naming him a member of either major sect of Force Users.

 

Couldn't disagree more. The REAL Revan grew disgusted, disillusioned with the Jedi Order, & the Republic it served, or vice versa at times.

 

Revan started 'falling' during the Mandalorian Wars, & that was ALL him. No one was trying to manipulate his mind. As you said before, Revan was Revan when he nearly defeated & conquered the Republic.

[Rayla_Felana]

Another reason i preferred surik, is because of a story in the game itself... Where vrook goes into how she fed off her enemies death to become stronger....

It was simply great because it was the first time in a game it was really explained why u gain exp for killing ppl XD

 

Vrook actually got it wrong, well half-wrong, he believed it was the same as what Nihilus had, Nihilus was right next to the MSG when it went off, actually on Malachor V and he embraced the Dark Side.

 

Surik was on her command ship when it happened, she didn't turn to the Dark Side, she instead used Sever Force on herself, this drastically reduced the effects her wound had on her, compared to Nihilus'.

 

She was not a threat to all life in the galaxy, as the Jedi believed.

 

The Wound she carried only ever served one purpose, and that was speeding up her reconnection to the Force and her understanding of it, over time it had healed itself, and was finally closed when she used Sever Force on Darth Traya.

 

Lord Nihilus' truly was a threat to the galaxy, indeed, if he had gone on unabated, the galaxy would have been wiped out of all life.

[Rayla_Felana]

Couldn't disagree more. The REAL Revan grew disgusted, disillusioned with the Jedi Order, & the Republic it served, or vice versa at times.

 

Revan started 'falling' during the Mandalorian Wars, & that was ALL him. No one was trying to manipulate his mind. As you said before, Revan was Revan when he nearly defeated & conquered the Republic.

 

You misunderstand, when Revan and the Jedi waged the Mandalorian Wars it changed them, the Exile herself states that she could feel them all falling, the tactics they used, hell the war itself, made them fall, then Revan used Malachor V to turn them completely, the real Revan, or at least whoever he was beforehand was long gone, fundamentally changed by the Dark Side.

 

When Vitiate had his way with him, he'd become basically another mindless husk for the Emperor to use as his personal vessel in leading the second invasion of the Republic.

 

He eventually regained control over his mind and was so twisted by the Dark Side he had forgotten about the Emperor and actually believed in what he was doing.

 

Then he was Mind-wiped by the Jedi, eventually Revan the real Revan, was finally back in control, but he had already been changed, the amount of psychological damage had taken it's toll and eventually after the final battle with Vitiate and his second imprisonment, he was completely mad.

[Velaran]

He didn't believe in either path, that was his problem, and it drove him mad eventually, that and sharing his mind with the Emperor for three centuries.

 

The real Revan would never be a Sith or a Dark Jedi, but he would be a Guardian of the Republic, I think that is far more appropriate than naming him a member of either major sect of Force Users.

 

I'd say the whole, "three hundred years of mind ****" thing was a bigger contributor to his second fall then not picking a path.

 

In fact, it was all those years of stasis under the Emperor that cultivated his hate for the Empire: In his mind, any culture that could do something so evil deserved to be wiped out, every man, woman, and child.

 

If he hadn't been put under such stress and trauma, for such a long period of time, he would have been able to keep treading both sides of the Force.

 

As it happened, he was, and he couldn't, because nobody could after such an ordeal.

 

Edit:

Then he was Mind-wiped by the Jedi, eventually Revan the real Revan, was finally back in control, but he had already been changed, the amount of psychological damage had taken it's toll and eventually after the final battle with Vitiate and his second imprisonment, he was completely mad.

 

I'd dispute the "completely mad" part of that.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Velaran

[Selenial]

Vrook actually got it wrong, well half-wrong, he believed it was the same as what Nihilus had, Nihilus was right next to the MSG when it went off, actually on Malachor V and he embraced the Dark Side.

 

Surik was on her command ship when it happened, she didn't turn to the Dark Side, she instead used Sever Force on herself, this drastically reduced the effects her wound had on her, compared to Nihilus'.

 

She was not a threat to all life in the galaxy, as the Jedi believed.

 

The Wound she carried only ever served one purpose, and that was speeding up her reconnection to the Force and her understanding of it, over time it had healed itself, and was finally closed when she used Sever Force on Darth Traya.

 

Lord Nihilus' truly was a threat to the galaxy, indeed, if he had gone on unabated, the galaxy would have been wiped out of all life.

I didn't mention the part where he compared nihilus to her at all, because i knew everything you just said. That part I actually mentioned remains the canon truth at this point

[Rayla_Felana]

I didn't mention the part where he compared nihilus to her at all, because i knew everything you just said. That part I actually mentioned remains the canon truth at this point

 

To him feeding on all those deaths is the same as what Nihilus did.

 

That's why I pointed out why he was wrong.

 

Not the first time Vrook had been wrong either.

[Selenial]

To him feeding on all those deaths is the same as what Nihilus did.

 

That's why I pointed out why he was wrong.

 

Not the first time Vrook had been wrong either.

 

Vrooks an idiot...

Now with that discussion over... XD lol

I never used to learn drain life or drain force in the original kotor because i had played kotor 2 first and it made no canononical sense for revan to have the power...

[Darth_Solrac]

You misunderstand, when Revan and the Jedi waged the Mandalorian Wars it changed them, the Exile herself states that she could feel them all falling, the tactics they used, hell the war itself, made them fall, then Revan used Malachor V to turn them completely, the real Revan, or at least whoever he was beforehand was long gone, fundamentally changed by the Dark Side.

 

Ah, you & I have totally different views of real. Revan made the decision to use those tactics himself. Cannon also has him disagreeing strongly with the Jedi Council. His passion for engaging the Mandalorians, be it even to save the Republic, screamed of Dark Side, that was indeed ALL HIM. Do not virtually ALL Jedi who disagree with the council so strongly end up 'falling'?

 

It's also said that those tactics did indeed start turning Revan & Malak, on the battlefields themselves. They especially grew to despise any form of weakness & indecisiveness. Then yes, he went to Malachor V to turn totally. But they were still them. They knew what they were doing, were they came from, & did it anyway.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Darth_Solrac

[Rayla_Felana]

I'd say the whole, "three hundred years of mind ****" thing was a bigger contributor to his second fall then not picking a path.

 

In fact, it was all those years of stasis under the Emperor that cultivated his hate for the Empire: In his mind, any culture that could do something so evil deserved to be wiped out, every man, woman, and child.

 

If he hadn't been put under such stress and trauma, for such a long period of time, he would have been able to keep treading both sides of the Force.

 

As it happened, he was, and he couldn't, because nobody could after such an ordeal.

 

Edit:

 

I'd dispute the "completely mad" part of that.

 

Considering canon has shown and told us time and time again that such a thing is impossible and only results in being literally torn apart, I believe it was just as much a contributing factor as being imprisoned with the Sith.

 

I would not, he believed wiping out 98.5% of the entire Imperial population was the only way to end the war, he was also in extreme mourning for Meetra as soon as he was set free, he was clearly very unbalanced emotionally.

 

He was driven insane, hell the Foundry battle shows us him turning from Light to Dark, willy nilly, this is extremely hazardous and leads to extreme psychological trauma.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[Rayla_Felana]

Ah, you & I have totally different views of real. Revan made the decision to use those tactics himself. Cannon also has him disagreeing strongly with the Jedi Council. His passion for engaging the Mandalorians, be it even to save the Republic, screamed of Dark Side, that was indeed ALL HIM. Do not virtually ALL Jedi who disagree with the council so strongly end up 'falling'?

 

It's also said that those tactics did indeed start turning Revan & Malak, on the battlefields themselves. They especially grew to despise any form of weakness & indecisiveness. Then yes, he went to Malachor V to turn totally. But they were still them. They knew what they were doing, were they came from, & did it anyway.

 

It seems you misunderstand the corruption of the Dark Side.

 

The Dark Side forever changes you, it is a narcotic in more ways than just being addictive, it is mind-damaging, it leads to having your identity being stripped away and having a far more aggressive and morally corrupt version of you instead.

 

Power-hunger is a main attribute, losing all sense of morality and becoming arrogant, paranoid and more than anything homicidally aggressive.

 

Revan was changed and corrupted by the Dark Side, he was not the same person as beforehand.

 

It is impossible to use the Dark Side and not be corrupted by it.

[Selenial]

To him feeding on all those deaths is the same as what Nihilus did.

 

That's why I pointed out why he was wrong.

 

Not the first time Vrook had been wrong either.

 

Vrooks an idiot...

Now with that discussion over... XD lol

I never used to learn drain life or drain force in the original kotor because i had played kotor 2 first and it made no canononical sense for revan to have the power...

[Fyurii]

Vrook actually got it wrong, well half-wrong, he believed it was the same as what Nihilus had, Nihilus was right next to the MSG when it went off, actually on Malachor V and he embraced the Dark Side.

 

Surik was on her command ship when it happened, she didn't turn to the Dark Side, she instead used Sever Force on herself, this drastically reduced the effects her wound had on her, compared to Nihilus'.

 

She was not a threat to all life in the galaxy, as the Jedi believed.

 

The Wound she carried only ever served one purpose, and that was speeding up her reconnection to the Force and her understanding of it, over time it had healed itself, and was finally closed when she used Sever Force on Darth Traya.

 

Lord Nihilus' truly was a threat to the galaxy, indeed, if he had gone on unabated, the galaxy would have been wiped out of all life.

 

 

Wasn't aware she knew how to sever a Force connection.

I was under the impression that she did it unconciously as a sort of automatic defense against what was happening, and it saved both her life and sanity.

[Darth_Solrac]

It seems you misunderstand the corruption of the Dark Side.

 

The Dark Side forever changes you, it is a narcotic in more ways than just being addictive, it is mind-damaging, it leads to having your identity being stripped away and having a far more aggressive and morally corrupt version of you instead.

 

Power-hunger is a main attribute, losing all sense of morality and becoming arrogant, paranoid and more than anything homicidally aggressive.

 

Revan was changed and corrupted by the Dark Side, he was not the same person as beforehand.

 

It is impossible to use the Dark Side and not be corrupted by it.

 

Blah blah says the Jedi/Republic/Light Side propaganda. Revan WAS a Light Side Jedi at one point, WAS STILL when he 1st made the decision to start disagreeing with the council so passionately. That passion started his fall, slowly but surely, as that passion is DS. Much to your surprise, he didn't then immediately start screaming at the top of his lungs & running, lightsaber ignited, for the nearest orphanage.

 

No, he gradually became greyer & greyer in his passionate pleas, tactics, & virtually completed his fall on those battlefields. What you view as corruption, I view as freedom, the Sith Code. Most Sith think the Jedi/Republic rank with corruption too.

 

Also, Obi Wan, Windu, etc, ALL had cocky streaks within them, especially how Obi liked to troll his opponents, lol. They never fell. Are they gonna fall? As Force Ghosts maybe? Do you know something I don't?

 

Look, you favor the Light Side/Jedi/Republic, it's kinda obvious, especially in your sig. I tend to favor the Dark Side/Sith/Empire. So it makes sense our views on this matter are consistently, polar opposites, but yea. Only one who favors the LS so could view capture, imprisonment, & mind **** brainwashing by the Jedi Council as returning to his 'real' self....

[Rayla_Felana]

Wasn't aware she knew how to sever a Force connection.

I was under the impression that she did it unconciously as a sort of automatic defense against what was happening, and it saved both her life and sanity.

 

The first time she used it that we know of was at Malachor V, but she had been trained to use it by Vima Sunrider beforehand.

 

Later she comes full circle and uses it to sever Traya from the Force to a degree where she was no threat.

[Velaran]

Considering canon has shown and told us time and time again that such a thing is impossible and only results in being literally torn apart, I believe it was just as much a contributing factor as being imprisoned with the Sith.

 

I would not, he believed wiping out 98.5% of the entire Imperial population was the only way to end the war, he was also in extreme mourning for Meetra as soon as he was set free, he was clearly very unbalanced emotionally.

 

He was driven insane, hell the Foundry battle shows us him turning from Light to Dark, willy nilly, this is extremely hazardous and leads to extreme psychological trauma.

 

1. I disagree

 

2. It seem the entierty of the Jedi Order are ALSO crazy, seeing as they put an unprecedented amount of support behind the plan.

 

3. Again, I disagree.

 

It seems you misunderstand the corruption of the Dark Side.

 

The Dark Side forever changes you, it is a narcotic in more ways than just being addictive, it is mind-damaging, it leads to having your identity being stripped away and having a far more aggressive and morally corrupt version of you instead.

 

Power-hunger is a main attribute, losing all sense of morality and becoming arrogant, paranoid and more than anything homicidally aggressive.

 

Revan was changed and corrupted by the Dark Side, he was not the same person as beforehand.

 

It is impossible to use the Dark Side and not be corrupted by it.

 

Aaaand this is the point where this conversation becomes pointless. I effectively disagree with you on every facet of the Star Wars universe, from the merit of George Lucas' ideas, to characterization of Revan, to the nature of the Force itself. Neither of us is going to win over the other.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Velaran

[Rayla_Felana]

Blah blah says the Jedi/Republic/Light Side propaganda. Revan WAS a Light Side Jedi at one point, WAS STILL when he 1st made the decision to start disagreeing with the council so passionately. That passion started his fall, slowly but surely, as that passion is DS. Much to your surprise, he didn't then immediately start screaming at the top of his lungs & running, lightsaber ignited, for the nearest orphanage.

 

No, he gradually became greyer & greyer in his passionate pleas, tactics, & virtually completed his fall on those battlefields. What you view as corruption, I view as freedom, the Sith Code. Most Sith think the Jedi/Republic rank with corruption too.

 

Also, Obi Wan, Windu, etc, ALL had cocky streaks within them, especially how Obi liked to troll his opponents, lol. They never fell. Are they gonna fall? As Force Ghosts maybe? Do you know something I don't?

 

Look, you favor the Light Side/Jedi/Republic, it's kinda obvious, especially in your sig. I tend to favor the Dark Side/Sith/Empire. So it makes sense our views on this matter are consistently, polar opposites, but yea. Only one who favors the LS so could view capture, imprisonment, & mind **** brainwashing by the Jedi Council as returning to his 'real' self....

 

I am not pointing out an opinion, I am pointing out the canonical facts that Lucas placed, which fully explained the Dark Side, that is it simple.

 

"The Dark Side corrupts, it is unstable power, and power used without responsibility inevitably leads to corruption." - Lucas, RotS commentary.

[Rayla_Felana]

1. I disagree

 

2. It seem the entierty of the Jedi Order are ALSO crazy, seeing as they put an unprecedented amount of support behind the plan.

 

3. Again, I disagree.

 

 

 

Aaaand this is the point where this conversation becomes pointless. I effectively disagree with you on every facet of the Star Wars universe, from the merit of George Lucas' ideas, to characterization of Revan, to the nature of the Force itself. Neither of us is going to win over the other.

 

Difference is, I am not arguing using my opinion, I am just showing the canonical facts, it's all that is really relevant for constructive discussion, otherwise this forum turns into a YouTube comment box.