On Warzone Scoring and Rewards

[Daecollo]

Solutions:

 

1. Completely change the medal system. Make medals provide a bonus to experience/commendations/valor/credits earned, but not be the factor to determine whether a reward is given.
    
   
2. Make warzones provide a fixed number of experience/commendations/valor/credits. Increase the fixed amount by a very minor number, say 10-20%, for the winning team.
    
   
3. Limit the number of players in a warzone by the least populated team. This just seems like common-sense to me, I'm amazed your pvp experts didn't think about this issue. If there are 4 players on the Republic team, then ONLY allow 4 Imperial players in.
    
   
4. Make a deserter debuff like pretty much every other MMO has done so people wont just quit a warzone, causing the population imbalance to become worse.
    
   
5. Fix the bugs that trap you in the starter area of a warzone, so we aren't kicked out of games. This bug has been around since launch, and is very irritating.
   

 

 

Give a team extra players if there expertise isn't on par.

 

if one team has 9800 expertise vs a team with 7000 expertise, give that team another player.

[Ghostuka]

One of the problems I noticed in WZs is people leaving in the middle of the game and you are forced to play a losing game because you had a bad start, and it gets worse as people just leave WZ.

 

How about a system where the people who stay in the WZ get more rewards if their team is fewer than 8.

 

Calculate the number of commendations/valor/credits with respect to the earned medals. Then, if the team is less than 8, take the average commendations/valor/credits of the entire team, multiply by the number of missing people and divide it by the people who played to the end.

 

This will achive two things: First, people will not be so fast to quit. And if some of them do quit, the rest will not -have to- follow them.

 

Sometimes you start a match with 5 people, and after 1 min, some more people join. If that is the case, a lot of the teammates just quit in that first 1 min. And that ruins the experience for the entire team.

 

 

Also, we should have another of those Kill/collect armaments/play warzone quest. Because, when we had it, playing a WZ to the end still had some advantages. As it currently is, quitting in the first minute sometimes saves you a lot of time and frustration. Players should have more motives to play until the end of the WZs.

[generalsanmai]

I have a new shadow (lvl 24 w/ 21 valor) on Ajunta Pall and thought the new changes were going to be bad based on all the comments I've been reading. I have to say that right off the bat, my wait times are minimal, although i get into less than 8man groups, it usually fills by the time the event starts.

 

I'm usually tops on medal counts (win or lose) and don't see a big deal w/ the system currently. I know how to get medals and encourage my fellow team mates to play together. Its pretty easy to get 3 medals as I can guard people and absorb damage ... I guess if you dont have healing or any type of protection skills it will be harder to get medals, but if that is the case, you should be dps and burning people down anyways.

 

I did lose w/ no rewards on one game where i got put into a 0-4 huttball match that ended quickly after ... no biggie, just que up again and get going. I used the afk vote once so far and haven't noticed unmotivated teammates very often. Maybe its just the server im on, but pvp overall is pretty healthy on ajunta pall.

 

I do get rolled a bunch on my 50 juggernaut when Vendetta premades log on, but hey, i just gotta L2P better too or get my own premade groups - no big deal. I sell augmented implants to make cash so i rarely have to PVE now ... no big deal to me overall.

 

You are also on a server with Heavy to Full population. Even with 1.2, a large number of servers are completely dead during peak hours.

 

If you had to wait 20-30 minutes for a queue, only to join it and have 3 other pubs with you, I think you'd understand the issue.

 

When your team has 4 people against 8, it's very difficult to get medals because you die in about 2-3 seconds. That's fine for tanks, because you just have to AoE taunt for the 3 medals, but classes without taunt are out of luck.

 

Bioware really needs to accept the fact that servers are dying, because it's creating a very lame online experience.

 

Cross-server queuing would solve a lot of problems, especially if they actually used their metrics to pair high populated Republic servers with low ones, and high populated Empire servers with low ones. This doesn't solve the PVE side of things though...try finding an operation/flashpoint group when there are 12 people on your fleet.

Edited April 16, 2012 by GeneralThorsson

[ebado]

...because people complained (justifiably) that there was no dev response last week. Now, *magic poof*, there was!

 

It's because they translate it to German and French and wait to post until all are available. Danny makes the post in the dev forums, the Euro team translates it and then they post them all at once. This might take a day or two due to work hours / weekends etc.

 

It's a crappy system. Why do they do it? Because the German and French communities cry if they don't. People here cry if they do. Everybody cries.

[SWGElder]

After fully testing Warzones this weekend. I won only 5 warzones of the 30+ I played. They were all pretty close games. I actually really enjoyed losing. I was averaging 50 comms a lose and 100 a win. My metal's were usually 8+. I think the changes they made to warzones are an improvement over the old system. There are more people at least trying. I can admit losing sucks but when you face a team that is either premade or most in BM gear then I can understand losing. I'm in all champ gear and only my saber is BM. I hold my own just fine as a Jugg. I believe that once the rated wz's come out there will be less premade's and less BM players in the normal warzones. I am glad they didn't go live with the rated wz because it give's players a chance to get BM gear before season 1 start's. I believe the only people complaining are the people that don't do shat in WZ's. So please let's stop the QQ and just focus on staying active in warzones and you won't have a problem. FYI I got my BM saber in one day even with only 5 wins.

[RoeKing]

Ok, I read the read the post and understand why you did what you did, but I am ready to quit PVPing entirely over this change.

 

When I PVP, I kill opponents and I seek the objectives. I also on occasion provide support or defend objectives from our opponent. I always win awards during the PVP session. Historically, I got SOMETHING for effort, regardless if we won or lost.

 

I know a lot of newbies play PVP and that is ok (and I am by no means an expert). However, when you are on a LOSING team 7 out of 8 times, it gets old real fast. There is nothing worse than seeing 0, 0, 0, 0 at the top after the battle is over. Awards during battle are now meaningless.

 

So what is the remedy for a person like me? I have 2 choices now. I can either quit entirely, or leave PVP battle once about 1/2 the battle is over and there is a CLEAR indication that I once again am on a losing team. What was fun in PVP prior to patch 1.2 is now real close to a complete waste of my time.

 

What made all this worse? I made the mistake of opening an in-game ticket and received an automated response that was very close to "too bad".

 

I share the same sediment as my fellow guild mates. I don't get a lot of time to play (an hour or two at night sometimes during the week) and I do want it to be a quality experience.

 

I will give this a week or two and see if changes are made. If not, I'll run dailies and quit PVPing altogether.

 

Please fix this ?

 

Thanks

[Kilnik]

Hey folks,

• Warzones will once again be shutting down when population imbalance is detected. This was an unfortunate bug where a feature of Ranked Warzones (in full team play it is not desirable to let one team end the game prematurely by quitting out) was incorrectly implemented globally.

 

So what happens when a player accidentally drops connection during a ranked warzone match? Is there no way for them to re-join?

Edited April 16, 2012 by Kilnik

[Ceasaigh]

 

In some respects I agree with you. It really depends on the specific "rewards" doled out. I think it is patently absurd to place the best players at an advantage over the worst players. Again, no one wants to see a paraplegic play 18 holes with Tiger Woods - except maybe a sadist.

 

PvP should be a competition - not class warfare. P

 

That said - legitimate victory and talent deserve recognition and reward! I don't think the reward should be of a character that places the better players at an additional advantage over weaker players, but a reward is called for: cooler looking gear, credit bonuses, valor spikes, unlocks for exclusive puchases that don't provide stat buffs, etc.

 

No one should want to see Michael Jordan get a 20-point headstart in a basketball game against a blind midget, but MJ deserves a recognition for his skill and achievements. On the other hand, if all Michael ever did was win games in which he had been given an advance advantage, then there would be no need to recognize him - he didn't accomplish anything.

 

When you shoot an unarmed man, you have not proven that you are stronger than he is. Similarly, when a player decked out in War Hero armor kills someone wearing recruit armor, he doesn't deserve anything. When someone wearing recruit armor beats someone wearing War Hero, however, that is a different story.

 

The bottom line: only in a level playing field does skill decide the contest. Don't be too quick to clamor for an edge in PvP or you will rob yourself of any real/meaningful victory. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be handing out trophies to the winners, though.

 

 

 

Stop it with your silly common sense.

 

 

The delusional PvP'ers in here are going to tell you that there is no gear gap. That the dominated side loses because they don't run with pre made's and lack any real skill. We need to L2P and all that garbage. Fact is people on the dominating side enjoy the advantage. Why change it? Winning is better than losing. But on low population servers where there are HUGE faction imbalances, the gear divide is so wide that war zones are a absolute joke.

 

 

This argument about gear got me ostracized on my server for speaking out against the expertise gap.

 

As long as we have a stat that gives an advantage to those that have it over those that don't PvP in SWTOR will never be based solely on skill.

 

Knowing how to play your class is important but if I have 1100 expertise and you have zero I'm going to wipe the floor with you 100% of the time, skill or not you're toast.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Ceasaigh

[ebado]

Ok, I read the read the post and understand why you did what you did, but I am ready to quit PVPing entirely over this change.

 

When I PVP, I kill opponents and I seek the objectives. I also on occasion provide support or defend objectives from our opponent. I always win awards during the PVP session. Historically, I got SOMETHING for effort, regardless if we won or lost.

 

I know a lot of newbies play PVP and that is ok (and I am by no means an expert). However, when you are on a LOSING team 7 out of 8 times, it gets old real fast. There is nothing worse than seeing 0, 0, 0, 0 at the top after the battle is over. Awards during battle are now meaningless.

 

So what is the remedy for a person like me? I have 2 choices now. I can either quit entirely, or leave PVP battle once about 1/2 the battle is over and there is a CLEAR indication that I once again am on a losing team. What was fun in PVP prior to patch 1.2 is now real close to a complete waste of my time.

 

What made all this worse? I made the mistake of opening an in-game ticket and received an automated response that was very close to "too bad".

 

I share the same sediment as my fellow guild mates. I don't get a lot of time to play (an hour or two at night sometimes during the week) and I do want it to be a quality experience.

 

I will give this a week or two and see if changes are made. If not, I'll run dailies and quit PVPing altogether.

 

Please fix this ?

 

Thanks

 

Read.

[Magnesium]

Hey folks,

 

Some follow up news from observations of play and feedback over the weekend. In the next couple of days we will be deploying a small patch that will address the following issues:

 

• As discussed, minimum medals to gain rewards will go from 3 to 1 to better reward those who are backfilled.
  
• Warzones will once again be shutting down when population imbalance is detected. This was an unfortunate bug where a feature of Ranked Warzones (in full team play it is not desirable to let one team end the game prematurely by quitting out) was incorrectly implemented globally.
  
• Completion of Warzones will gain a large increase in the percentage of rewards it represents, so while scoring is still the primary driver, you will cease to see games that give no rewards if players have a minimum of 1 medal earned.
  
• We are extending the time we wait for a full team of eight to better make sure Warzones pop with complete teams.

 

A huge thank you to everyone who played this weekend and provided valuable feedback and analysis.

 

I wonder if Gabe was fired if they got Daniel to make this post.

[mcjediknight]

To me THE problem with PVP is that it is gear based and not skill based. Everyone is talking and talking about how many commendations one should get because they NEED to get that gear to be competitive in PVP. THAT"S THE WHOLE PROBLEM!!!! PVP should Not be based on the gear you wear it should be based on your skill.

 

Expertise should be GONE. Everyone should have a "pvp" set of gear you wear for your class at lvl 50 that has base stats only. Your reward for doing well in PVP should be getting new titles and cool sets of PVP armor that are COSMETIC only, new vehicle, etc, nothing that gives you an advantage in PVP.

 

PVP should be based on a person's skill not their gear. Until they figure this out pvp will always have the issues it currently has.

Edited April 16, 2012 by mcjediknight

[ArgalWolford]

Daniel,

my opinion is SWTOR should have been more on world pvp rather than queuing for pvp. its starwars men republic vs empire all the time clash of power like the sacking of the jedi temple and redeeming of that temple. world pvp fight for an area to get an incentive lol am I making any sense making world nods like in other mmo siege castle to control or other things

[Sylvarine]

Hey folks,

 

There's been a lot of discussion about the changes to the Warzone rewards system in Game Update 1.2 and the type of play style that it encourages. I wanted to help out a bit and point out a major change not all players may have noticed and share some of our plans.

 

First of all, rest assured we are keeping a close watch on the results of our reward changes to Warzones in 1.2 and we will continue to pull constant metrics to make sure they are going in the right direction as players get used to the new rules.

 

To refresh everyone's memories, one of the most important aspects of the new changes is that your team's performance inside the Warzone has a direct impact on a portion of the rewards you are given at the end of the Warzone. Even if your team is losing, the closer you can make the game the better your rewards will be - so don't give up hope! Giving up and letting the other team 'win faster' is now the worst possible route you can take to rewards.

 

Secondly, one of the things we have already identified to fix is to reduce the minimum amount of medals a player must receive to gain any reward at all. Currently that value is three (3), and we are going to reduce that to only needing one (1) medal to gain rewards. This should make sure we cover that all important backfill player while still protecting against the freeloaders.

 

As we move forward, we will continue to meet and discuss other possible changes based on the feedback here on the Forums as well as the data coming in from the live servers. As always, we appreciate your comments and want to hear from you.

 

 

Looking at only the bolded statement, either that is a flat out LIE or your system is bugged and broken. We've had several matches between huttball to voidstar where everyone on our team has earned 10+ medals.. been incredible games down to the end and we lose or win. Other side earns maybe 25 comms? Thats your idea of a better rewards? Do yourself a favor and fire yourself. You've obviously completely lost touch with how an mmo works these days and still continue to ignore the 1000's of pissed off posts regarding your new system. How you can sit there and try and justify your new system is just boggling.

 

The system doesn't affect me much as I run with a reg pre-made and lost maybe a few games a night. When I see other guildies pugging it for a couple games, losing, and some cancelling their subs or saying screw pvp all together.. yeah... that's your CASUAL gamer which makes up probably 90% of your player base! They leave, well why even bother, you guys don't listen anyways.

[Appletaz]

Solutions:

 

1. Completely change the medal system. Make medals provide a bonus to experience/commendations/valor/credits earned, but not be the factor to determine whether a reward is given.
    
   
2. Make warzones provide a fixed number of experience/commendations/valor/credits. Increase the fixed amount by a very minor number, say 10-20%, for the winning team.
    
   
3. Limit the number of players in a warzone by the least populated team. This just seems like common-sense to me, I'm amazed your pvp experts didn't think about this issue. If there are 4 players on the Republic team, then ONLY allow 4 Imperial players in.
    
   
4. Make a deserter debuff like pretty much every other MMO has done so people wont just quit a warzone, causing the population imbalance to become worse.
    
   
5. Fix the bugs that trap you in the starter area of a warzone, so we aren't kicked out of games. This bug has been around since launch, and is very irritating.
   

 

+1

 

It might be kinda fun only having 2 teams of 4 in those war zones. Might make it pretty interesting!

[Overtone]

Hey folks,

 

There's been a lot of discussion about the changes to the Warzone rewards system in Game Update 1.2 and the type of play style that it encourages. I wanted to help out a bit and point out a major change not all players may have noticed and share some of our plans.

 

First of all, rest assured we are keeping a close watch on the results of our reward changes to Warzones in 1.2 and we will continue to pull constant metrics to make sure they are going in the right direction as players get used to the new rules.

 

To refresh everyone's memories, one of the most important aspects of the new changes is that your team's performance inside the Warzone has a direct impact on a portion of the rewards you are given at the end of the Warzone. Even if your team is losing, the closer you can make the game the better your rewards will be - so don't give up hope! Giving up and letting the other team 'win faster' is now the worst possible route you can take to rewards.

 

Secondly, one of the things we have already identified to fix is to reduce the minimum amount of medals a player must receive to gain any reward at all. Currently that value is three (3), and we are going to reduce that to only needing one (1) medal to gain rewards. This should make sure we cover that all important backfill player while still protecting against the freeloaders.

 

As we move forward, we will continue to meet and discuss other possible changes based on the feedback here on the Forums as well as the data coming in from the live servers. As always, we appreciate your comments and want to hear from you.

 

So...PvP changes are just going to go live and you guys will just look at that data, instead of listening to the posts on the PTS part of the forum.

 

You missed a few things.

 

1. Go back to pre1.2 prices on pre 50 gear and medpacks

2. Get rid of the stupid 3:1 ratio for RWZ commendations. To much of a grind without RWZ being in the game.

 

Not to be mean but the bold part makes me think you don't understand the mindset of the typical MMO player. Whatever way is the fastest to get gear...that is what people will do. If leaving a losing or stalemate WZ means getting commendations faster that's what people will do.

 

The shortest path to gear is what people will take and want.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Overtone

[generalsanmai]

To me THE problem with PVP is that it is gear based and not skill based. Everyone is talking and talking about how many commendations one should get because they NEED to get that gear to be competitive in PVP. THAT"S THE WHOLE PROBLEM!!!! PVP should Not be based on the gear you wear it should be based on your skill.

 

Expertise should be GONE. Everyone should have a "pvp" set of gear you wear for your class at lvl 50 that has base stats only. Your reward for doing well in PVP should be getting new titles and cool sets of PVP armor that are COSMETIC only, new vehicle, etc, nothing that gives you an advantage in PVP.

 

PVP should be based on a person's skill not their gear. Until they figure this out pvp will always have the issues it currently has.

 

That's good and all, but you're wasting your time talking about it. This is a gear-based MMO, styled after other gear-based MMOs...do you really think they're going to suddenly get rid of the gear aspect?

 

Yes, we're discussing commendations, because that's how TOR works. I'm interested in real solutions for the current game, not wishes.

[Illitya]

-Put back all pvp quest (and raise weekly rewards)

-rise the warzones rewards a little

-change the rate comm=>Ranked comm to 20-10 (honnest rate imo)

-Give the MVP vote some importance : 1 comm REALLY??!

[Varicite]

So...PvP changes are just going to go live and you guys will just look at that data, instead of listening to the posts on the PTS part of the forum.

 

You missed a few things.

 

1. Go back to pre1.2 prices on pre 50 gear and medpacks

2. Get rid of the stupid 3:1 ratio for RWZ commendations. To much of a grind without RWZ being in the game.

 

Good fixes, and I agree w/ both.

 

#2 is especially problematic, and is causing the problems w/ #1.

[pogmahone]

I like the changes, although it does have its faults. The rewards need to be higher for the winning team ie more money and comms, changing the medal from 3 to 1 is a bad idea you still can be a free loader with that change. Please put in a deserter debuff in the game.

[Cheeseblaster]

To refresh everyone's memories, one of the most important aspects of the new changes is that your team's performance inside the Warzone has a direct impact on a portion of the rewards you are given at the end of the Warzone. Even if your team is losing, the closer you can make the game the better your rewards will be - so don't give up hope! Giving up and letting the other team 'win faster' is now the worst possible route you can take to rewards.

 

My apologies if this was covered before but the above statement only applies if the rest of your team cares enough to try, or you aren't going up against a highly rated pre-made (who was SUPPOSED to be rated out to make this work properly) and therefore actually have a chance to.

 

Most of the losses I see are huge. And one side or the other gets up big very quickly. So even if I play my a** off and do everything I can it doesn't always matter. Maybe 1 out of 9 WZ's is actually competitive.

 

I can see what you're trying to say but the logic is flawed, and does not reflect reality.

[Chockalot]

That.. really doesn't answer the question at all, though.

 

I get that people are unhappy, but the old system wasn't that great either. It basically made everyone feel like a winner, because actually winning didn't mean jack aside from 1 daily quest.

 

And I still hear 0 suggestions for something that addresses both issues, making winning important, and still keeping a good reason for people to play their little hearts out for the entire match.

 

here is the suggestion: keep the system but allow the imperials to only play with themselves. Fits the storyline of Sith in fighting. Meanwhile, give all others the option to que under the old system or the new system and see which one is more popular. I would put my money on the old system.

 

What i do not understand is the object horror from some people who write as if they are already in top gear owning everyone and having fun. Then they are against rewards for giving the winning side a good fight. In a boxing match, the loser gets paid rather well and a lot of times they get their backside crushed in. In college football, Div II teams get paid pretty well to play the likes of Alabama and LSU.

 

The old adage of walk a mile in their shoes fits here. It is much easier on a imperial toon right now than a republic on most servers. It's not l2p, it's dynamics of a MMO with PVP. If it is about skill, give everyone the same armor and baubles, if it is about having the right gear to win and dominate, continue on the present path and soon players will find better things to do.

[mcjediknight]

That's good and all, but you're wasting your time talking about it. This is a gear-based MMO, styled after other gear-based MMOs...do you really think they're going to suddenly get rid of the gear aspect?

 

Yes, we're discussing commendations, because that's how TOR works. I'm interested in real solutions for the current game, not wishes.

 

You can have a gear based MMO, you just don't need to have a gear based PVP system within it. Plenty of games have gone this way and its not that big a problem to drop expertise off of the PVP weapons. It's a prety easy and simple solution.

[Varicite]

here is the suggestion: keep the system but allow the imperials to only play with themselves. Fits the storyline of Sith in fighting. Meanwhile, give all others the option to que under the old system or the new system and see which one is more popular. I would put my money on the old system.

 

What i do not understand is the object horror from some people who write as if they are already in top gear owning everyone and having fun. Then they are against rewards for giving the winning side a good fight. In a boxing match, the loser gets paid rather well and a lot of times they get their backside crushed in. In college football, Div II teams get paid pretty well to play the likes of Alabama and LSU.

 

The old adage of walk a mile in their shoes fits here. It is much easier on a imperial toon right now than a republic on most servers. It's not l2p, it's dynamics of a MMO with PVP. If it is about skill, give everyone the same armor and baubles, if it is about having the right gear to win and dominate, continue on the present path and soon players will find better things to do.

 

Why.. would you make only Imperials use the new system?

 

Not every server is unbalanced, y'know. Mine isn't.

 

Your "solution" sounds a lot more like vindication for some sort of perceived injustice wrought against you by people not rolling on your boring faction.

 

BW didn't make Jedi boring, and neither did Imperial players. <.<

Edited April 16, 2012 by Varicite

[Polebreaker]

It's because they translate it to German and French and wait to post until all are available. Danny makes the post in the dev forums, the Euro team translates it and then they post them all at once. This might take a day or two due to work hours / weekends etc.

 

It's a crappy system. Why do they do it? Because the German and French communities cry if they don't. People here cry if they do. Everybody cries.

 

That may be true. But 3 days? Wow. Just run the thing through google translate, this crap isnt hard these days.

[Meanerr]

The two biggest issues are:

 

1) Imbalanced servers.

 

2) No Rated Warzones yet.

 

I play on Ajunta Pall, balanced server, queue pops <5 mins during prime time that I've got no time to properly quest.

 

Rated Warzones will put in a deserter debuff and if you want to leave, go ahead.

 

Most people don't leave on either side on AP.

 

I won a lot and lost a lot this past weekend.

 

Still got plenty of comms, xp, credits for losing. Not As much as pre-1.2 but I don't PvP warzones for these (maybe just creds so I can craft).

 

If you are on a crappy server, get off your crappy server and reroll until transfers come in.