A Healer's 1.2 Grievances: The story of why healers are upset

[Sathid]

Good job for having 2 alts and a main, what u missed here is a point. BW didn't want hybrid speccs, not really ppl care here about hybrid speccs at all.

 

Healing never was OP, survability of certain healers under guard and their resources managment was. Not overal dmg mitigation rofl.

 

Oh ok so you can a certain class get both healing and damage high scores often and there is no problem? and that doesnt affect resources? cmon man,it sure as hell does for the other team.

[ssbi]

Oh ok so you can a certain class get both healing and damage high scores often and there is no problem? and that doesnt affect resources? cmon man,it sure as hell does for the other team.

 

Not to be rude, but where have u noticed that this thread about Hybrid classes being nerfed, it's about PURE healing classes struggling with new rules of dmg mitigation when they are not even capable of keeping them selfs up but their teammates too who die in few globals.

[Sathid]

Not to be rude, but where have u noticed that this thread about Hybrid classes being nerfed, it's about PURE healing classes struggling with new rules of dmg mitigation when they are not even capable of keeping them selfs up but their teammates too who die in few globals.

 

What globals? and maybe you shouldnt be able to keep multipule people up against multipule enemy's? yah know? i really think you guys got too used to doing far too much,yah.

[Wesgile]

Not to be rude, but where have u noticed that this thread about Hybrid classes being nerfed, it's about PURE healing classes struggling with new rules of dmg mitigation when they are not even capable of keeping them selfs up but their teammates too who die in few globals.

to be fair, what the healer in this case just did was giving their teammates some more globals before being taken down, which is time they should have spent bringing the opponents down, and which if done so they wouldn't have been dead instead.

 

not the healer's fault and he obviously did contribute to the team.

[Dietra]

What globals? and maybe you shouldnt be able to keep multipule people up against multipule enemy's? yah know? i really think you guys got too used to doing far too much,yah.

 

Ehm... hope you are not saying that a healer is not suppose to keep up multiple people against multiple enemy's... oh wait that is what you're saying...

 

So when we do an operation... we should have 4 healers and 4 other players.. so that each healer can keep up one other person aside from themselves... Because there are often multiple enemies in an operation lol.

 

As for PVP... So 4 healers and 4 tanks to protect them and... oh wait ... no... 4 healers and 4 dps to protect them (since healers are not suppose to survive 1vs1 against a dps)... oh no wait....

 

So if healers are only suppose to keep 1 person up (including themselves)... what's the point of a healer exactly?

 

Just asking . And yeah there was some sarcasm in there... sorry, couldn't resist :-).

[ssbi]

What globals? and maybe you shouldnt be able to keep multipule people up against multipule enemy's? yah know? i really think you guys got too used to doing far too much,yah.

 

Don't really know if u heared about global cool down stuff... but w/e.

 

Doing too much ? So basicly u do agree that Healer should:

 

a) keep himself/herself up.

or

b) keep his "1" teammate up.

 

Both exludes themselfs by your logic because that is "far too much".

 

Let's say i have a decent sentinel on me who can time his Interrupts and CC, he gonna interrupt ALL my heals, and i shall i die anway.

 

So basicly it leads to situation when u haven't healed your teammates you haven't healed yourself, u haven't even taunted anyone.

 

The result healer is a spot waste in WZ. I do see your logic. High-Five.

[Sathid]

Ehm... hope you are not saying that a healer is not suppose to keep up multiple people against multiple enemy's... oh wait that is what you're saying...

 

So when we do an operation... we should have 4 healers and 4 other players.. so that each healer can keep up one other person aside from themselves... Because there are often multiple enemies in an operation lol.

 

As for PVP... So 4 healers and 4 tanks to protect them and... oh wait ... no... 4 healers and 4 dps to protect them (since healers are not suppose to survive 1vs1 against a dps)... oh no wait....

 

So if healers are only suppose to keep 1 person up (including themselves)... what's the point of a healer exactly?

 

Just asking . And yeah there was some sarcasm in there... sorry, couldn't resist :-).

 

Your just full of sarcasm aint yah? oh so your supposed to heal four other as they are getting hit,wow thats new to me and yes we are talking PvP here and may i ask what are you smoking?

 

 

Name me the DPS classes that you lose to in 4 seconds like so many claim? il wait for your response.

[Safgril]

Your just full of sarcasm aint yah? oh so your supposed to heal four other as they are getting hit,wow thats new to me and yes we are talking PvP here and may i ask what are you smoking?

 

 

Name me the DPS classes that you lose to in 4 seconds like so many claim? il wait for your response.

 

assassin... maurader....

 

maurader has so many interrupts the only thing i can do is reapply my bubble which I will die before that happens...

 

impossible to run from an assassin as they have this thing that snares you that a sage can NOT heal off...

 

unfortunately the sawbones scoundrel does... sages do NOT...

 

and yeah 1 healer should be able to heal up 4 players in PVP...

 

what MMOs have yuou played before... 1 healer is in charge of 8 guys in DAOC... ultimately 2 healers are better for 8 man but 1 can suffice...

 

what PVP games you reign from... i have played games like shadowbane, daoc, SWG, AOC, WHO, etc... if you dont know how healing works in an MMO or PVP you are the one mistaken. And need a knowledge check.

[ssbi]

to be fair, what the healer in this case just did was giving their teammates some more globals before being taken down, which is time they should have spent bringing the opponents down, and which if done so they wouldn't have been dead instead.

 

not the healer's fault and he obviously did contribute to the team.

 

You know, to be fair, it has 2 sides, u bought few seconds, and a person got back to respawn with the Barrier closed, if i wouldn't heal him at all he would resurrect and get straight into the fight, so you basicly failed your team.

[Dietra]

Your just full of sarcasm aint yah? oh so your supposed to heal four other as they are getting hit,wow thats new to me and yes we are talking PvP here and may i ask what are you smoking?

 

 

Name me the DPS classes that you lose to in 4 seconds like so many claim? il wait for your response.

 

Ehm... so healers that do pvp don't do pve? And in pvp they should only be able to heal themselves against one enemy (ok according to some not even that), but in pve they are suddenly expected to keep up themselves and their teammates... and you are asking me what I'm smoking? .

 

The entire purpose of a healer is to keep themselves and others up. Not just themselves... if that were the case then each class would just get their own ability to keep themselves up and healers wouldn't exist in mmo-games.

 

In PVP they are not suppose to keep others up indefinitely, but should at least be able to heal others somewhat aside from themselves... of course they should not be able to survive against 3 players unprotected. But protected yes they should be able to hold their own somewhat. And if under attack healers won't get a chance to heal others much... at least they should not have that chance.

 

But in PVP it is almost never 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2.... there is almost never an even fight in pvp. The only warzone in which I've seen even fights (1vs1, 2vs2, etc) is Civil War. No-one should be able to just plain survive solo against multiple attackers. But it never is solo is it? Not for healer or dps or tank.

[Sathid]

assassin... maurader....

 

maurader has so many interrupts the only thing i can do is reapply my bubble which I will die before that happens...

 

impossible to run from an assassin as they have this thing that snares you that a sage can NOT heal off...

 

unfortunately the sawbones scoundrel does... sages do NOT...

 

and yeah 1 healer should be able to heal up 4 players in PVP...

 

what MMOs have yuou played before... 1 healer is in charge of 8 guys in DAOC... ultimately 2 healers are better for 8 man but 1 can suffice...

 

what PVP games you reign from... i have played games like shadowbane, daoc, SWG, AOC, WHO, etc... if you dont know how healing works in an MMO or PVP you are the one mistaken. And need a knowledge check.

 

LOL yah what game? this isnt one of those games,were talking an entirely different game here i mean last i checked this is SWTOR forum right? i suggest you dont log into this forum and think "Yah it used to be like this at this game" that doesnt apply and it doesnt matter.

[ssbi]

Your just full of sarcasm aint yah? oh so your supposed to heal four other as they are getting hit,wow thats new to me and yes we are talking PvP here and may i ask what are you smoking?

 

 

Name me the DPS classes that you lose to in 4 seconds like so many claim? il wait for your response.

 

You playing 2 of those classes, pity u don't know that, but it's not surprising.

[Sathid]

You playing 2 of those classes, pity u don't know that, but it's not surprising.

 

You should not be able to keep four people up as they are getting hit,no way,that is far and away too much,thats why we had Voidstar matches where hardly anyone died and neither team planted even the first door,thats just stupid.

[Steele_dk]

I've read a lot of people who claim that one dps should take down a healer, but the fact is that one dps and one healer should essentially negate each other. If a dps should always be able to take out a healer then what is the point of a healer? Wouldn't it be better to bring in another burst dps who can also kill? DPS has become vastly more important than healing (whereas previously the game was weighted too far in the other direction).

 

Healers definitely needed some tuning, but there were so many big changes that this has gone beyond tuning and completely marginalized healers. I am a combat medic in full BM (minus one relic) and I drop stupidly fast. I can't effectively heal anyone, including myself. I pillar hump, cc, kb, and try anything I can to LOS, but I don't really have any escape mechanics or mobility. The second I stop to heal it's, hello marauder/powertech in my face and then I'm in the respawn trying to stack my supercharge cells.

 

Remember way back in 1.0 land when Scoundrel/Operatives were absolutely blowing people up in the space of a stun? Remember how terribly unbalanced that was? Well now it's like there are 4 or 5 1.0 operatives in every warzone, only now some of them have lightsabers, and others have blasters.

 

I've heard from a guildie that scoundrel/operative healing isn't quite as bad because he is more mobile and none of his core abilities were changed very much. I can see how that might be the case, and how in that situation the changes to expertise actually come into a little bit of focus. But for a class that has absolutely no mobility (commando/mercenary) the changes are disastrous. From what I understand, sage/sorc healing is suffering as well, though for slightly different (but related) reasons.

 

tl;dr: Healing needed to be tuned, but they have turned the knob too far in the opposite direction.

 

This, though may i add to all the BH/Trooper healers here that tell their word on how it is now, you really needed a tune, you were way too tanked for a healer to be in balance with the other 2 healers. Sorc former healer here. (And pls dont give me bs about all my abilities, you cant line of sight a stun)

[ssbi]

You should not be able to keep four people up as they are getting hit,no way,that is far and away too much,thats why we had Voidstar matches where hardly anyone died and neither team planted even the first door,thats just stupid.

 

Yeah i got already your point, healers should heal but in the ammounts of not being able to heal them selfs and anyone in their team. And yeah i understood, you want dps vs dps games w/o taunts heals etc.

[Sawbones-Twik]

The fix to the problem is easy. Most dps agree that 1 on 1 with a healer should come down to skill. The problem is even mediocre dps can kill healers now 1 on 1.

 

Allow the expertise boost to go toward your type of class. (dps, heal, tank)

 

I have 1149 expertise on a sawbones healer. 22% dps boost, 18% mitigation, 12% healing boost

 

If I could change the healing boost to 22% and drop the dps boost to 12% I believe that would even the playing field and healers would be relevant again.

 

Right now it's just a dps world. If bioware chooses to ignore this problem, then people will continue to unsubscribe.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Sawbones-Twik

[Safgril]

LOL yah what game? this isnt one of those games,were talking an entirely different game here i mean last i checked this is SWTOR forum right? i suggest you dont log into this forum and think "Yah it used to be like this at this game" that doesnt apply and it doesnt matter.

 

last i checked this was the SWTOR forums... so because YOU think this is the way it should be that nobody else knows what they are talking about... LOL

 

so let me get this... YOU play a dps... i got a challenge for you... level up a sage... full heal spec...

 

let me know how you do...

 

till then you dont have a clue what you are talking about...

 

oh and before you tell me to try a dps... i have a full BM geared dpser too... thats right... before 1.2... I CAN TAKE OUT A HEALER BY MYSELF... no problem.

 

now its a joke... i dont even complete my full cycle before the healer is dead..

[Darkammo]

This thread has been an interesting read, and there's been a lot of good points from various sources. I should have reserved some space on the front page to quote some of the better points.

 

You can tell who is a healer and a dps by the comments pretty easily.

 

The main divide really boils down to what the death rate should be. Pre 1.2 the death rates were a lot lower, and healers could do more. The dynamics of warzones were heavy on logistics before. In war, lives are valuable and losing one was costly. You don't just throw endless numbers at stuff. Pre 1.2, transitioning from one objective target to a next was key. Sending the right number of people to the right zone because you could get caught up in long fights. Knowing when and how to disengage was also important. No one told you to sit on a healer for a full game and not kill him. For healers, their effect on the battlefield was apparent and pronounced. You could heal people, they would live. Similarly, a dps who could interrupt lock down a healer was important, was threatening, and was the difference from being able to push through a defense line.

 

By changing how much heals could heal, some of that was lost. Timing and coordinating your cc's, kb's, and interrupts although important isn't vital post 1.2 because DPS can kill things with sheer burst rather than all that extra stuff that was critical before. Healers are marginalized, but can be important when the whole team pays attention and takes care of them. But, for pugs it's a lot of respawn and running back. But even for more organized teams, it's back to the common system of dispatching people back to respawn than dealing with disengaging and transitioning between objectives with more macro strategy. Show of force in power rather than in mind and coordination.

 

Both designs are valid. One favors the heals and the other favors the dps. Dps and heals will never agree on this point because their goals are different. A dps wants kills. A healer wants to keep people alive. Their desires are exclusive. There is no satisfaction in healing if your target dies. There is no satisfaction for dps if they can't kill.

 

But, the gameplay that favors the healer is not often seen because the healers are usually the minority population. The healer favored system still offers the dps the satisfaction of locking down a healer as a sense of accomplishment. But, it's not in the nature of most dpser to have that team mentality. So once again it rests on the shoulders of healers to bear the burden that there is an upper limit on what skill can do for your class without the aid and support of the rest of the team. Namely, your class has less depth being a reactive sort of play style to begin with, handicapped by the fact that it is what other people do to protect you and don't do to you offensively that enables you to do anything.

 

I'd like to point out though that in the healer favor system, healers didn't stop you from doing damage. You just don't have the satisfaction of killing. In the dps favored system, dps stops the healers from doing their job completely. Not negating their healing, but taking another step further by eliminating their target, be it the healer itself or the healers target, and having more people run back more often.

 

So the experience of healing from one system to the latter is extremely disheartening.

[Tyfonen]

Well said OP.

 

All I have left to say is. "PvP as it stands now is just a booring dps race"

 

I might as well just head off and play any FPS (First person shooter), there´s no longer much diffrence in gameplay.

 

Any every advanced tactics is out the window. Just focus target "Any" opnonent one at a time.Hell u hardly need to focus target anyone, some classes simply do it on their own now were some coordination were needed before.

 

I´m already sick and tired of healing in pvp. Were before it were satecfying to rescue people from certain death and keep people fighting in long outdrawn fights, that came down to the team with the best team effort winning in the end.

Now it´s die run back ... rinse and repeat constantly no matter what. Unless u totaly outclass the other team.

Even fights R just not as much fun any more.

 

Took me just a couple of days pvping wz's in 1.2 and to be specific.. mostly winning. And now I´m already fed up and bored out of my skull.

 

I will likly hang in there a while as I´m playing with great pvpers/guildies/friends. But I´m more likely to join the flavor of the month club and lvl a op dps now that it´s the only viable way to go.

 

Wounder if the dps kids will miss the healers?! Not the ones here defending the changes outright that´s for sure. They´r the ones that think they´r playing CS anyways and only want their headshots.

 

gg

[Ragnarok_ZA]

Ok, I may have skipped 20 pages of this thread but I think I have the just of it....aaaannnnd it's pretty much the same as everywhere else on this forum.

 

You go to the Guardian pages and they say 'We got nerfed *** BW has ruined tanking and focus spec the world is over reroll unsub' etc...

You go to the Gunslinger Pages and you get the same OMG whats the point of playing gs in pvp its useless reroll unsub etc

 

And now because I'm starting my healer alt as a Sage I want to pick up some tips from the forums and come across threads like these which is the same as everywhere else...

 

Now, I've just started my healer and I'm only lvl 20 and my gear sucks...but so does everyone else sub 50 so doesn't matter really. I'm not traditionally a healer and usually play the tank more often than not so I'm still getting use to the play style as such,I'm getting completely smashed in 1 vs 1....and all I can say to myself is 1.) you shouldn't have been alone thats dumb your a support character and 2.) Learn to play the class better.

 

I am new to MMO's ( Not gaming been doing that since 88' ) but this is the first MMO I have taken seriously so I maybe out of line in saying this but... Shouldn't healers fill the support role? Surely if a healer is alone he should die. He shouldn't be able to kill anyone in a 1v1 or even stalemate because he is support and should function in a team. A tank should be the one who should take alot of dmg and a dps should be a glass cannon. It's sounds stupid to say it out aloud but the way some people are talking on this thread( and the forums in general) 1 class should be able to 1v1 any other class and that's what their idea of balance is....

 

I do appreciate what the OP is trying to say and agree, with some of it.

I will say that a healer should be able to keep and tank alive in the heart of battle because that's what those classes are designed to do keep each other alive while mitigating the dmg done to the dps who are the guys that are suppose to be doing the killing. If that is not possible than yes healers need to be brought up to that level, but not to the point where they can solo a dps, IMHO.

 

 

 

ps.Personally I feel that the murky waters that are these forums are so full of complaints from EVERYONE that BW can honestly ignore 90% of it. Because if they do listen to all of it we will all do 0 dmg and tank 0 dmg and heal 0 hp....because that would be balanced.

[Dietra]

Ok, I may have skipped 20 pages of this thread but I think I have the just of it....aaaannnnd it's pretty much the same as everywhere else on this forum.

 

You go to the Guardian pages and they say 'We got nerfed *** BW has ruined tanking and focus spec the world is over reroll unsub' etc...

You go to the Gunslinger Pages and you get the same OMG whats the point of playing gs in pvp its useless reroll unsub etc

 

And now because I'm starting my healer alt as a Sage I want to pick up some tips from the forums and come across threads like these which is the same as everywhere else...

 

Now, I've just started my healer and I'm only lvl 20 and my gear sucks...but so does everyone else sub 50 so doesn't matter really. I'm not traditionally a healer and usually play the tank more often than not so I'm still getting use to the play style as such,I'm getting completely smashed in 1 vs 1....and all I can say to myself is 1.) you shouldn't have been alone thats dumb your a support character and 2.) Learn to play the class better.

 

I am new to MMO's ( Not gaming been doing that since 88' ) but this is the first MMO I have taken seriously so I maybe out of line in saying this but... Shouldn't healers fill the support role? Surely if a healer is alone he should die. He shouldn't be able to kill anyone in a 1v1 or even stalemate because he is support and should function in a team. A tank should be the one who should take alot of dmg and a dps should be a glass cannon. It's sounds stupid to say it out aloud but the way some people are talking on this thread( and the forums in general) 1 class should be able to 1v1 any other class and that's what their idea of balance is....

 

I do appreciate what the OP is trying to say and agree, with some of it.

I will say that a healer should be able to keep and tank alive in the heart of battle because that's what those classes are designed to do keep each other alive while mitigating the dmg done to the dps who are the guys that are suppose to be doing the killing. If that is not possible than yes healers need to be brought up to that level, but not to the point where they can solo a dps, IMHO.

 

 

 

ps.Personally I feel that the murky waters that are these forums are so full of complaints from EVERYONE that BW can honestly ignore 90% of it. Because if they do listen to all of it we will all do 0 dmg and tank 0 dmg and heal 0 hp....because that would be balanced.

 

Hehe ... yeah you are right... most of the pages in this thread says the same thing over. And obviously everyone will defend their own class.

 

But some good things are being said on these forums. Things that BW should at least take into consideration. Since they are suppose to be the ones who know what is ballanced and what isn't... after all... they made the game... they should be able to see who is just whining and who is trying to be constructive.

 

I'm sure the healers are not the only ones who's skills got hit/adjusted/nerfed (take your pick). This thread happens to be about healers.

 

And it depends on the kind of healer you play, gear, playstyle, etc.. , whether or not you agree with things being said here, I'm sure.

 

Yes the healer is suppose to be a support class. They should not be able to kill anyone... they are healers after all... but that doesn't mean that everybody should just simply be able to kill them either. They are healers after all....

 

It's probably hard for Bioware to please both the PVE and the PVP crowd.

 

Healers in PVP are expected to keep up their teammates to a certain point, but also able to take care of themselves to some point. They should not be dependent on other classes to protect them, unless overwhelmed by more than 1 dps, which is often the case when focused. They should not be cannonfodder. At least I don't think.

 

Healers in PVE are expected to keep up their teammates against several strong mobs in operations. In most operations there are 2 healers to keep up the 6 others (8man ops that is). These mobs in operations are not weak and laughable compared to PVP players. They hit hard. And in an operation the healers are expected to keep their dps and tank(s) up through those hits.

 

Bioware is expected to balance both (different) healingstyles and combine it in skills that are suppose to be perfectly ballanced for both PVE and PVP. That is not an easy task by any means.

 

The same goes for dps and tanks. In PVE a tank is supposed to be able to keep the attention of a boss and take huge amounts of damage while being healed. But if they are able to take a lot of dmg in PVP, there is always the chance someone complains they are OP, because they are not easily taken down.

 

The DPS is suppose to do a lot of dmg, because if they don't... in PVE the boss enrages and everybody dies. So lot of dmg is needed for a dps in PVE. But in PVP when they do so much dmg... the healers die easily.

 

I applaud Bioware for trying so hard to ballance all of these elements out in all classes. It's not easy to please all the crowd.

 

These forums are suppose to be about tips and comments on how this can be achieved (at least I think) for each class.

 

Sometimes unfortunately it ends up a insult fest of people disagreeing with eachother. I know I have seen myself drawn into arguments and QQ's and sarcasm. I guess even I sometimes forget what these forums are suppose to be for: Improving the game. Not bashing at different opinions .

[Zoomia]

To fix class in balance the people who got nerfed need to reroll a class that didnt. I play a sage ( Full BM & Rakata) and i am rerolling a sentinel. So if you are unhappy with your class and you havent unsub'd yet you got two choices. Reroll or SUCK IT UP. Btw if you all reroll they will nerf the sents and the vanguards etc because there are so many of them face rolling the people who didnt change, then you go back to your sage and watch all these people cry about how there class got nerfed.

[Darth_Philar]

To fix class in balance the people who got nerfed need to reroll a class that didnt. I play a sage ( Full BM & Rakata) and i am rerolling a sentinel. So if you are unhappy with your class and you havent unsub'd yet you got two choices. Reroll or SUCK IT UP. Btw if you all reroll they will nerf the sents and the vanguards etc because there are so many of them face rolling the people who didnt change, then you go back to your sage and watch all these people cry about how there class got nerfed.

 

Or unsub. That is also an option.

 

You have to remember that people pay a monthly subscription in order to have fun. If the playstyle they most enjoy is no longer viable then it is also no longer fun. Intelligent people will do a cost-benefit analysis and realize that they are paying the same amount of money for something that has become less fun. If they can rationalize the cost as still being reasonable then they will reroll or "suck it up". If they cannot rationalize the cost as still being reasonable they will just stop paying.

[Safgril]

To fix class in balance the people who got nerfed need to reroll a class that didnt. I play a sage ( Full BM & Rakata) and i am rerolling a sentinel. So if you are unhappy with your class and you havent unsub'd yet you got two choices. Reroll or SUCK IT UP. Btw if you all reroll they will nerf the sents and the vanguards etc because there are so many of them face rolling the people who didnt change, then you go back to your sage and watch all these people cry about how there class got nerfed.

 

yeah unfortunately, i have a bm dpser...

 

these changes are boring the crap out of me. I actually wanted to get into my healer more.

 

I just feel that a game like this if they want my money they need to seriuosly stop making decisions like they did in Warhammer online

 

I dont get it? didn't they learn anything from the HUGE mistakes they did from warhammer?

 

that game is dying and has no dev support but maybe 1 or 2.... This game was suppose to hit huge... but mistake after mistake.... they are shooting themselves in the foot.

 

I have 4 characters that are all 40+... i get tired of rerolling too. 2 of which are BM'd out.

 

i still have months left on my 6 months. They have till then to make a serious comeback or I just leave the sub off.

[Khoraji]

Didn't take a genius to know that the combination of increased damage through multiple sources and the huge healing nerfs, would result in the mess we have now.

 

Just the expertise changes would have made the job harder for healers with much more damage being put out, both to ammo/heat etc situation and survivability, the nerfs on top of that was only ever going to take it too far and some people, myself included, said it before 1.2 went live...

 

BW as usual didn't listen and those that said PTS changes were final and for bug testing and nothing more, were proven right:(

 

 

This again?

 

Expertise gives healers a huge boost compared to DPS.