The penalties for losing are TOO severe

[Gorrdan]

Don't have BM gear... qq qq qq

 

I don't Either, and we do not see me crying to get more comms to do so.....

 

I already have a full BM set. And i am going to not bother with rest of the post because number of medals per match vary from player to player and depends upon various situations. These changes are most harsh on new players and not players like me who are another step closer to Warhero.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Gorrdan

[Stylez]

*Bump

 

This thread needs a dev reply.

 

... hehe ... yeah in my dreams.

 

It is working as intended.

[Numerii]

Fair enough mostly. A week or two - that's where I wonder. It's about 17k or more to get fully BH geared now (quick scan of costs so I may be off a bit). For the sake of arguments, assume a 60 token avg per battle and that falling on the positive side, that means nearly 283 matches at about 15 mins per match for just over 70 hours of play and that does not account for queue waits. That means nearly 2 weeks of the equivalent of full time work (take off 8 hours if someone has stored out 2k like they hopefully have) - doubt many will get it in a week or two now. True, you'll be more effective part of the way gearing up though.

 

You're forgetting the rewards from the daily (and weekly?). I think there's only one daily now, not even sure if we have a weekly any more but still, 99 WZ comms for completing it. Over the course of two weeks that's probably another 4 hours of grind using your napkin math. Even if it takes a month to get fully geared, I don't see a problem with that. It's very similar to what I experienced as a fresh 50. Took about 2-3 weeks to get fully PvP-geared. The difference was, however, I started out with no expertise. That Recruit set puts you at less of a disadvantage than before. Also, upgrading a piece won't have as big of an effect on your performance either. I really have no sympathy for anyone who complains that gearing up for PvP in 1.2 is hard.

 

You can argue that being rewarded so little for losing when you are trying to do the best you can is wrong, I'll agree with that to some extent.

 

I just don't see an issue with gear.

[jolleebindu]

he said he played 15 min of pvp and got 2 medals clearly he did something terribly wrong

 

i played 7 matches now and got 43 medals and 4 wins

 

so average 6 medals a match

 

except you don't get medals for supporting an attack on a node that isn't successful

 

his story is plausible, and has happened to me on occasion

[Polebreaker]

*Bump

 

This thread needs a dev reply.

 

... hehe ... yeah in my dreams.

 

Dude, the devs are recovering from a brutal week of spewing lies and deception at PAX and then a crazy long weekend followed by working for a couple days while their tech monkies pushed out a patch and let the PR monkies deal with the fallout! THEY NEED REST!

[jolleebindu]

The thing i fail to understand is your wanting people to be rewarded for no even trying to win, to just sit there and farm medals. I find that outrageous and more annoying than losing.

It irks me when the point of huttball is to score and people are trying to farm medals via killing. The point of a warzone is to win, not to see who can hit who the hardest.

Thats why there are goals and achievements, a winner, and a loser. Hell no, they shouldnt give more commendations to the losers, this should make them want to try harder to win and work as a team.

 

make all medals objective based then

[jolleebindu]

actually, the way it is now, if you are losing you HAVE to try to farm medals if you want any sort of rewards at all at the end.

 

agreed, has happened to me

[jolleebindu]

Don't have BM gear... qq qq qq

 

I don't Either, and we do not see me crying to get more comms to do so....

 

Let's do the math

 

Comm cap is 2k

 

I get 8 medals per match usually (good average)

 

losing gives me 48 comms winning gives me 80- something

 

(I just got out of HB 8 reps to 4 imps we lost 6-0)

 

Lets overstate, WZ = 20 min

average rate/wz considering 50/50 (we will underestimate) 60

 

if you drop losses, considering the same 50/50 ratio the average rate/wz = 40

 

Everyone who is in had the chance to gear before 1.2, call it early bird rewards, contends with new players who did not, on their side and the opponents side. Faction based win loss is not absolute, the random rate prevails.

 

2000/60 = 33.3333333 wz to cap

33.33*20 = 666.66 minutes to cap

 

dropping

2000/40 = 50 wz to cap

giving the same 666.66 minutes the non dropper has

666.66/50 = 13.3332

you have to spend an average of 13 minutes per wz to equal the efficiency, considering half are winners 25*7=175 minutes are lost to winning wz 333.33-175= 158.33 minutes spread over 25 wz which should lose 158.33/25=6.3332 minutes to determine a winner over a loser. This also has the failure variable to consider, failing to determine winners from losers.

 

 

What is the point? How much comms do you need?

 

Why should you leave?

 

Logic dictates unless you can guarantee you will get winning wz teams when you drop out, which you cannot, dropping is a net loss, especially if you all are as good as you can claim in the forums.

 

assuming a 50/50 win ration is not acceptable while premades go against pugs

premades beat pugs more often, a more realistic ration might be 1/3 for solo queing players

[Varicite]

assuming a 50/50 win ration is not acceptable while premades go against pugs

premades beat pugs more often, a more realistic ration might be 1/3 for solo queing players

 

I'm fairly certain that there's absolutely nothing stopping a pug from either joining or creating a premade themself.

 

I don't see this as a valid complaint.

 

"Anyone want to join a premade?" See, that isn't that hard.

[jolleebindu]

I'm fairly certain that there's absolutely nothing stopping a pug from either joining or creating a premade themself.

 

I don't see this as a valid complaint.

 

"Anyone want to join a premade?" See, that isn't that hard.

 

grouping together beforehand isn't the real issue, its coordination

 

premades have vent/ts/mumble or something to communicate and thus coordinate more effectively than pugs

 

this is not the only issue however

 

premades often also have a "command structure" if you have competing ideas, the guild officer/leader will more often determine the outcome - in pugs there is no such thing

 

grouping is not the only distinction between a pug and a premade

 

edit: sorry its a bit off topic, but it adds to the problem

Edited April 15, 2012 by jolleebindu

[Varicite]

grouping together beforehand isn't the real issue, its coordination

 

premades have vent/ts/mumble or something to communicate and thus coordinate more effectively than pugs

 

this is not the only issue however

 

premades often also have a "command structure" if you have competing ideas, the guild officer/leader will more often determine the outcome - in pugs there is no such thing

 

grouping is not the only distinction between a pug and a premade

 

edit: sorry its a bit off topic, but it adds to the problem

 

Either way, I'm not going to count grouping up in a massive multiplayer game to be the "problem", rather than the norm.

 

Like I said, a pug can always join a premade, or start one themself. Ventrilo isn't all that difficult to come by for most people.

[Morveth]

Yep. 1'.2 just killed PvP. two of my firends already left the game due to thid. i will wait a week or so and if this isn't solved Iw ill cancel my subscription too.

 

Bas move, BW.

[Kllashaa]

Agreed with OP. Penalties for losing are too harsh and are frustrating all players.

 

Queues feel like they're popping slower, especially after I repeatedly queue up against opposing players who lose a few bad games in a row.

 

I'm not saying that rewards should be equalized between winners and losers, but more parity would probably make people feel better (like 100 vs 75 or 100 vs 70).

 

This is a game, after all. People are probably already pretty upset after losing. No need to kick them while they're already down.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Kllashaa

[Y-n-T]

Honestly life is full of obsticles I know I live with a disability but i hate complaining or hand outs I have always adapted and overcome my weekness to live a normal life and support a family and I love mmo games and I think this is one of the best hands down I was never very good at pvp since im only able to play with one hand but love it anyway I loved the way these games were set up because I never got something for nothing I worked at it and played hard but rarely got more than 2 medals was not much of an asset to my team but I did make goals sometimes and killed an occassional player. Got mouthed alot for my game play but no big deal thats life right no complaints . Have a great bunch of friends that devised tactics for me to be more usful in the games some of my friends are the bests pvpers I know and always incorage me . But the new system in pvp has put a big obstacle for me and Im sure others have this problem if I don't do well it makes my team suffer way to much out of every 10 wz I play i mabe once on avarage get anything at all for it. The wz were great before because everyone got rewarded for trying even thow they might be a very bad player I can not play them now with a clear consious because I don't want others to come out with nothing because of me not complaining just saying out of all the players that play this game alot of us just naturally are not good no matter how hard we try and practice the way it was I thought was great but now I have to stop pvping until I adapt again bottom line sometimes you shouldn't fix whats not broken.........never give up adapt and overcome guys..........

[Boreus]

Just lost a void star match by about 5 seconds. Really close game, but the losing team gets less than half the rewards.

 

My main issue in the pre-50 bracket is getting ZERO credits for losing even if you did well, while still getting a lot of XP. In the void star game I just mentioned, I got 18k xp and no credits for having 8 medals. I wouldn't mind getting less xp for losing, but I *need* credits to level professions and buy skills, and right now the ability to break even while leveling depends on factors beyond my control.

 

Granted if I already had 50s on this server it wouldn't be much of an issue, but for people who are rerolling or are saving up for the Legacy-related credit sinks, it sucks.

[Ivonichke]

The rewards for losing are a *********** joke.

 

I said it in another thread, but I'll say it again here since one thread was locked and referenced this thread as being watched.

 

In PvE, it's perfectly acceptable to give rewards only for success. It's players vs. a computer, and seeing as the computer has a routine script it's all about execution and meeting the benchmarks. In PvP, it's obviously player vs. player - when one player's success hinges on another player's failure, you can't, can't, can't have such a disparity between rewards. I agree the winners should get more, but they should not routinely get 2-4x more than the losers as is currently happening.

 

I enjoy PvP. I've enjoyed it for 10+ years across a number of different games. I've never been part of a system that has such a disparity between winning/losing. I agree winners should receive the gear/upgrades faster. I do not agree they should receive it twice, thrice, or four times faster than the loser. That does nothing to help the loser ever reach an even playing field since they'll always be playing catch up. Maybe six months down the road they'll finally be even, but by then I'm sure there'll be another upgrade available to make sure they stay behind.

 

It's easily possible to run into a WZ late and not even have enough time to get 2 medals, let alone the 3 required for what? 10 comms?

 

It's happened to me five times this weekend where I've run into a premade or vastly superior group (read: BM geared/class advantage - where'd all these sents/marauders/juggs/guardians that sucked pre1.2 come from?) that has camped the spawn in huttball with 6, preventing my team from stepping outside long enough to have a chance at getting medals. Result? They got full comms, we were lucky to see any (I've seen 0 comms four times so far, despite trying my best just being outclassed/matched).

 

Pre 1.2 I didn't bail on any losing games. Ever. I'd stick it out for the miniscule, almost non existent chance at a miraculous comeback. Now? I won't waste my time. If I see certain premades on the other side, I'll leave 30s into the match. As soon as it becomes apparent my team won't win, I'll cut my losses and try again. My time is worth more to me looking for entertainment and trying again than sticking around for **** all.

 

I realize this is an MMO and a time waster in general, but I prefer wasting my time with entertainment. I'm paying BioWare for that entertainment (so far - I changed my 3month recurring sub to a 1month today, we'll see how long that lasts).

[PullinStuff]

assuming a 50/50 win ration is not acceptable while premades go against pugs

premades beat pugs more often, a more realistic ration might be 1/3 for solo queing players

 

I Que solo except when my wife and I are playing together....

 

My wife, though has come a long way, is not a great player.

 

Guilds on my server are always recruiting, my guild is too, my guild has vent, if I played when they were all active I probably could do premade runs... but I do not have experience with that just yet in SWTOR...

 

Again you are, just like mr I QUIT WZ, are highlighting a player issue, not a program issue or system issue.

 

I get 50/50 without a premade, maybe the last sentence in my prior post should be highlighted.

[Astarica]

I joined a game of Voidstar with the first door down on defender, dropped down kill a guy solo, got assassin, killing blow, and 2.5k hit and that's my 3 medals.

 

Granted that's a freak coincidence but it's really not that hard to get 3 medals.

 

Keep in mind that games that are won too quickly have reduced reward for the winner as well. For example take a 7.5 minute defend + 30 second win on offense, the reward is likely to be somewhere between 60-80 medals for the winning team. They definitely won't get 100 even though everyone on that team will have well above 8 medals (6 from just Dauntless 6). In this case, getting 40 for the losing team is pretty darn good consider some of the guys on the winning side might only have 60.

[Astarica]

I'm fairly certain that there's absolutely nothing stopping a pug from either joining or creating a premade themself.

 

I don't see this as a valid complaint.

 

"Anyone want to join a premade?" See, that isn't that hard.

 

The only map that really needs coordination is Huttballl. Jumping in place is a far more effective way to communicate than even voice. There's no ambiguity to trying to figure out who or where you should pass to. Just look for the guy jumping up and down and flapping his arm. You literally can't miss it.

 

I've seen plenty of premades, good ones even, getting smashed by PUGs. In fact, a lot of premades bizarrely go for balance, and end up getting smashed by the oddball PUGs like 6 Tankasins + 2 Marauders. I had that matchup on Huttball and it's actually pretty hilarious since you just rotate Force Shroud/Undying Rage and pass the ball off after it runs out for ball running.

[Wesgile]

its not as much as "you suck, so you lose, so you no get rewards" if a lot of the match depends on things outside of your control, especially on pugs.

 

it would be fine for a strict loser penalty on permade vs premade, but pugs are basically just a bunch of random peoples wanting to have a bit of fun. better rewards would be nice, at least for the few people who worked for more than his share trying to carry the whole team to win the match.

[HelinCarnate]

Don't have BM gear... qq qq qq

 

I don't Either, and we do not see me crying to get more comms to do so....

 

Let's do the math

 

Comm cap is 2k

 

I get 8 medals per match usually (good average)

 

losing gives me 48 comms winning gives me 80- something

 

(I just got out of HB 8 reps to 4 imps we lost 6-0)

 

Lets overstate, WZ = 20 min

average rate/wz considering 50/50 (we will underestimate) 60

 

if you drop losses, considering the same 50/50 ratio the average rate/wz = 40

 

Everyone who is in had the chance to gear before 1.2, call it early bird rewards, contends with new players who did not, on their side and the opponents side. Faction based win loss is not absolute, the random rate prevails.

 

2000/60 = 33.3333333 wz to cap

33.33*20 = 666.66 minutes to cap

 

dropping

2000/40 = 50 wz to cap

giving the same 666.66 minutes the non dropper has

666.66/50 = 13.3332

you have to spend an average of 13 minutes per wz to equal the efficiency, considering half are winners 25*7=175 minutes are lost to winning wz 333.33-175= 158.33 minutes spread over 25 wz which should lose 158.33/25=6.3332 minutes to determine a winner over a loser. This also has the failure variable to consider, failing to determine winners from losers.

 

 

What is the point? How much comms do you need?

 

Why should you leave?

 

Logic dictates unless you can guarantee you will get winning wz teams when you drop out, which you cannot, dropping is a net loss, especially if you all are as good as you can claim in the forums.

 

Unless of course you are the only healer for a team going against another team that has several. In Civil War the other day, I had 2 medals because our team could not focus targets on the other teams healers (they had 4) and the other team certainly knew how to kill a healer when they showed up. I would see 3 people peel off their current targets and run over just to kill me every time I respawned.

 

With the recent heal nerfs, a healer vs 3 people in BM gear is now an easy target when they have no one esle to keep them alive. Dispite this, it was a long fought battle and mid had not been take until almost at the very end and we ended up with a loss. 0 rewards. Under the current system, I would do better to stop healing my team and camp on the one turret that we controlled. Once I got my 2 medals from healing, I could have got at least another 2 maybe 3 from playing guard duty and letting my team die.

Edited April 16, 2012 by HelinCarnate

[DakataTan]

Typical, a feature that could be used as an improvement motivation is instead used as a good excuse to quit rather than adapt by many.

 

I played a **** load of wzs over the weekend most of which I lost.

 

 

I'm a sorc, recruit/champ gear and a clicker to boot.

 

I never received 0 comms.

 

There were steamrolls during this session v pre mades, yet still 3 medals was achieved, sure some times a close run thing but done none the less.

 

Even on my lower alts in the bottom bracket 3 medals was not an impossible goal. Just had to make sure I was using every tool. Someone was saying about doing only heals and only getting 2 medals. 1) u did less than 300k but that was all you were doing during a heavy loss? 2) would it of killed u to throw a relic buffed bit of dmg to earn the lowly 75k medal? Ppl shouldn't focus, there's tons of basic entry medals, kill shot, 1k defender, 2.5ks etc every class should diversify to take in as many as poss giving u options, the tunnel vision approach during a loss will only add to ur problems.

 

Iv got no sympathy for those saying they get 0 and I say that as nicely and peacefully as possible, my own tests, limited but still a fairly reasonable sample, have shown me that no game is bad enough to deny u 3 medals, time dependent of course, u just gotta get creative, hell heal fire dmg if u have to.

 

Tl;dr: l2p

Edited April 16, 2012 by DakataTan

[fungihoujo]

You honestly want to be rewarded for failing!? How about we just cry until BW just gives us the endgame armour without having to do anything but walk into the operation and say boo to the bosses till they give up the shiney's.

 

You are the 99%, don't want to work for rewards just get everything handed to you because you wanted to play.

 

As a note, I am not an elitest nor am I in any way a PVP God, I am a mediocre player and I'm not crying about anything. Well anything other than there are way to many servers for the amount of sub's for the game.

 

At 40 comms a match, you're looking at about 400 hours- to a casual who plays two hours a day, that's well over half a year to get BM gear... which isn't even the best gear.

 

 

Sorry, why exactly should people be happy that they aren't even going to have the current BiS gear by the time there's new, better gear out? Some people want to pvp equally, and if this is any indication- no casual player is ever going to see anything but people with far superior gear owning their face.

[DakataTan]

At 40 comms a match, you're looking at about 400 hours- to a casual who plays two hours a day, that's well over half a year to get BM gear... which isn't even the best gear.

 

 

Sorry, why exactly should people be happy that they aren't even going to have the current BiS gear by the time there's new, better gear out? Some people want to pvp equally, and if this is any indication- no casual player is ever going to see anything but people with far superior gear owning their face.

 

.......who have put in the time or effort to get the gear that you have chosen not to (completely your option)

 

 

if im prepared to invest a **** ton of time into an aspect of the game, shouldnt i be far better rewarded than someone who isnt?

 

i think we need more tiers of gear myself, give people a tree with some lower branches to climb, maybe in time.

 

as for the equal issue, this is an rpg, character development and as such gear is a fundamental building block of any rpg, all the way back. striving for uber gear is all part of the elaboratly decorated hamster wheel all these games are. ppl bang on about wanting equal ground for pvp, the fact is the ground is equal (class balance aside). we all start in begginner gear and at level 1. the rest is up to you.

Edited April 16, 2012 by DakataTan

[ShadowOfVey]

At 40 comms a match, you're looking at about 400 hours- to a casual who plays two hours a day, that's well over half a year to get BM gear... which isn't even the best gear.

 

 

Sorry, why exactly should people be happy that they aren't even going to have the current BiS gear by the time there's new, better gear out? Some people want to pvp equally, and if this is any indication- no casual player is ever going to see anything but people with far superior gear owning their face.

 

At 40 comms a match, you're looking at a little less than 400 matches...not hours.

 

Then you have the daily which helps you along a bit as well.