Who Swtor was made for.

[HeavensAgent]

No successful MMO is specifically designed for the hardcore MMO PVPer

 

Any game that did, would cease to exist quickly

There have actually been several, but you make a good point. Those titles that do focus on hardcore PvP, specifically, either don't last long or subsist on a small player community over their lifespan. Developers have to balance focus on hardcore content with focus on the desires of other player demographics targeted by the game. Edited April 9, 2012 by HeavensAgent

[DieAlteHexe]

This is not a game aimed at the hardcore. Many HC gamers (like myself) are guilty of trying to make this game it simply isn't.

 

As the Bioware Rep on the Pax East Panel said, to Paraphrase "your focused demographic is usually dictated by how much the game cost to make. In the future when these game can be made faster and for less money, I'm sure we'll see a lot of games aimed a niche audiences like the hardcore but for now, you don't spend 300 million on a game for 70k-100k subscriptions."

 

When I quit WoW years ago, I said i would wait for Swtor, as it seemed to have what i wanted from a game and after 7 years, it wasn't set in Azeroth.

 

 

What i didn't (but should have) anticipate was the targeted audience and how wide the net Swtor was casting.

 

After hitting 50, raiding and rolling numerous alts to 50 It started to sink in that the overall difficulty level of this game is not what i expected. Then again, what I expected was based on what I had hoped for rather than what was most logical for the company and the subsequent game.

 

 

Basically we the minority, the hardcore few will never change the aims of this game and would be silly to even try to. Accept What the game is, then evaluate if it is for you. Anything more is just trying to change something that was obviously not meant for your play style.

 

What an amazing post. I /salute you, sir.

 

Ahh, what the hell, *hug* too.

 

May more people see with eyes like yours.

[Dayln]

Eve Online.

 

 

EvE is not in any kind of contention as a Major MMORPG, not even in the same league.

 

The reason they are not in the same league? Does not cater to the casual player, that was their intention from the beginning to fill a niche

[DarthDetonate]

Alternatively, and perhaps a less condescending idea, the answer may simply be to select several titles you enjoy and bounce among them; complete the game's new content, cancel, and go onto the next title. Eventually come back to the first and start again, experiencing the content that's been added since your last departure.

 

There is a lot of merit to the idea that developers simply cannot keep up with the demands of the hardcore demographic. This doesn't mean developers shouldn't attempt to do so, but as a consumer community hardcore players have to face the facts: your content demands are extremely high, and it may not be humanly possible to design, develop, test, and implement content fast enough to meet these demands.

 

Agreed however the unfortunate side of most HC players that I know ( i can't speak for everyone) is that we focus on one title at a time. So other than a Dark Souls MMO or another newer Korean Grind fest (which I've been looking for) we create a content nightmare for the developers that can only be satiated by slowing the leveling down or launching at a much higher difficulty level which would ultimately alienate the many. That is never a good business practice.

 

I think eventually there will be games aimed at all the niches of gamers as the quote reinforced. But that will come in time when MMOs are cheaper and take less time to make.

 

Thanks to all for the input.

Edited April 9, 2012 by DarthDetonate

[AHChrist]

This game isn't aimed at anyone. Everything they have done forces you to stay at the fleet which is horrible. The fleet is pretty much a lobby from where you either do raiding or pvp. Most people won't even bother leaving because of loading into a planet is painful. This is a very poorly designed MMO that shows one thing, the name Star Wars is very powerful because it can make a turd shine. Edited April 9, 2012 by AHChrist

[MMornard]

This game is made for me. Huge Star Wars fan, very casual. I've been playing since day 1 of early access, have yet to hit 50 and having a great time. Thank you Bioware, I love this game.

 

Me too. I am the target market.

[MMornard]

the hardcore included because, lets face it, you guys rock the subscription figures; you bring in a lot of money,

 

Citation, please?

 

Because I personally believe that there are a LOT more casual gamers out there than hardcore.

 

It's the Pareto principle in action; if 90% of your money comes from casual players, focus 90% of your effort on keeping them happy.

 

I would be very, very, very interested in AUTHENTIC statistics on "hardcore vs casual" market size.

[VegaPhone]

This is not a game aimed at the hardcore. Many HC gamers (like myself) are guilty of trying to make this game it simply isn't.

 

As the Bioware Rep on the Pax East Panel said, to Paraphrase "your focused demographic is usually dictated by how much the game cost to make. In the future when these game can be made faster and for less money, I'm sure we'll see a lot of games aimed a niche audiences like the hardcore but for now, you don't spend 300 million on a game for 70k-100k subscriptions."

 

When I quit WoW years ago, I said i would wait for Swtor, as it seemed to have what i wanted from a game and after 7 years, it wasn't set in Azeroth.

 

 

What i didn't (but should have) anticipate was the targeted audience and how wide the net Swtor was casting.

 

After hitting 50, raiding and rolling numerous alts to 50 It started to sink in that the overall difficulty level of this game is not what i expected. Then again, what I expected was based on what I had hoped for rather than what was most logical for the company and the subsequent game.

 

 

Basically we the minority, the hardcore few will never change the aims of this game and would be silly to even try to. Accept What the game is, then evaluate if it is for you. Anything more is just trying to change something that was obviously not meant for your play style.

 

Except if the figure is actually 300 million then that is terrible management. They could have, and should have more styles to satisfy in an MMO. They do offer some varying content, but when ever I hear 150 million, or whatever, and especially now 300 million and now there is only 3 warzones, a broken open world pvp and several years to do it all...then how can you say it is not terrible management?

 

They dont know how to make MMOs, since their excuse from the beginning for why illum did not work out is because they were not planning for open world pvp. How can they not prepare for open world pvp in an MMO, that is called star wars, with two opposing factions?

 

I think the honest answer is... the engine is giving them a hard time. Notice how they said before they had chat bubbles but then removed it because they could not optimize it. So basically they did not have enough 'time' to optimize the engine for open world. Either because it is bad management and they tried to do it in a decent time frame but with a terrible engine, or they dont have great developers... the best in the world as they claim.

 

300 million, several years, and they call this well managed development for pvp?

Edited April 9, 2012 by VegaPhone

[MMornard]

This game isn't aimed at anyone. Everything they have done forces you to stay at the fleet which is horrible. The fleet is pretty much a lobby from where you either do raiding or pvp. Most people won't even bother leaving because of loading into a planet is painful. This is a very poorly designed MMO that shows one thing, the name Star Wars is very powerful because it can make a turd shine.

 

We'll take your word for it as the obvious expert on turds.

 

In other words, I like this game, I'm sorry you are so bitter about it.

Edited April 9, 2012 by MMornard

[Misthalin]

EvE is not in any kind of contention as a Major MMORPG, not even in the same league.

 

The reason they are not in the same league? Does not cater to the casual player, that was their intention from the beginning to fill a niche

 

Well, duh. Your original claim was that there is no hardcore MMORPG out there - and now you're stating the opposite.

 

Try making up your mind?

[HeavensAgent]

Citation, please?

 

Because I personally believe that there are a LOT more casual gamers out there than hardcore.

I'm not comparing hardcore populations to casuals, nor am I claiming that they outnumber casuals. That said, they are a substantial market, and the value of that market is considerable as a result. Edited April 9, 2012 by HeavensAgent

[Meldwyn]

You the minority will never be satisfied with any one MMO out there. Simply put, there is no single MMORPG that can keep up to the rate which you consume content. Thats simply a fact. Sleep is good. Spending time away from the screen once in a while is good too. I think you've logged in way more time than the average subscriber. Too much of anything is not good.

 

It would appear to me that WoW kept his attention for the better part of 7 years. Obviously, that would seem to indicate that the level of content, the speed at which he consumed it, and the frequency of the new content was sufficient...

 

That's a long time for one game, don't you think?

 

Apparently, SW doesn't have the same draw, staying power, etc... that he described. It isn't built for his style of play. Has nothing to do with sleep deprivation.

[DawnAskham]

It depends on if you mean "hardcore" as in...

1. Want a challenging experience, so they do all hard and nightmare mode content.
   
2. Want to do everything in game. Absolutely everything.
   
3. Have nearly unlimited time and no life so they devote all of their time to the game.
   

If you're #1 and/or #2, then parts of TOR are targeted at you and it's on-par, if not better than many other MMOs for this.

 

If you're #3 then you're sadly out of luck, as you would be with just about every single MMO out there. The only exceptions might be sand-box MMOs, or seemingly neverending PvP like in EVE Online. TOR is an amusement park style MMO, just like WoW, in which those who spend their whole lives here are NEVER going to be satisfied as the developer will never be able to make enough content for you in a timely fashion.

 

I agree with the OP that the current state of SWTOR is NOT targeted at the small percentage minority of players that are looking for very difficult challenges that require coordinated groups spending lots of time working together to overcome.

 

I find the idea that the content that has been released as 'hard' or 'nightmare' is tuned for this demographic to be laughable. It isn't hard, nor a challenge for players that have grown up on MMOs and have completed the most difficult content in the most difficult games.

 

It is instead designed for the average gamer, and the average gamer has been very successful against this content.

 

Which isn't to say it is a bad game or a game I don't find entertaining, but rather like the OP, I understand this isn't where I'm going to go for really difficult raiding content.

 

And while releasing the game with everything tuned for the average masses makes good business sense, I feel the designers have set themselves up for a very bumpy ride the next couple of patches.

 

Many players who wanted this to be their new hard raiding game have moved on, and it isn't clear they will come back. Meanwhile the average players have been able to complete content labeled 'hard' and 'nightmare' and feel that this is their game.

 

So what happens when the designers start making 'hard mode' actually hard and 'nightmare mode' something that only the most dedicated players in organized guilds can complete?

 

Will they be able to get the players who wanted this level of challenge come back to consume the new 'hard' and 'nightmare' content?

 

Will the players who have completed 'hard' and 'nightmare' when it was easy continue to have success, or will they get frustrated with the difficulty?

 

And for a preview of this, just look at the posts whining about the healing nerfs and medpack changes coming in 1.2, and this is before anyone gets a chance to see if the new content is more difficult than current content.

 

Heck many of the post already have some variant of 'I am a hard / nightmare raider and with these changes the content will be impossible'.

 

I don't envy the balancing act the developers will have to perform to keep from alienating various segments of the games population as they move forward.

 

In fact, if I were them I'd just focus on several broad segments and not try to please everyone, especially the small niches.

Edited April 9, 2012 by DawnAskham

[VegaPhone]

I'm not comparing hardcore populations to casuals, nor am I claiming that they outnumber casuals. That said, they are a substantial market, and the value of that market is considerable as a result.

 

Those numbers are from single player games. So they look at single player games and the huge multi million demand and make the same quality of a single player game, and then take from something a lot of people consider the standard, WoW, and take from that.

 

single player quality + WoW = swtor

 

Not necessarily a bad thing, especially lvling up. But you know... we should have a bit more pvp content in the game, or at least open world with questing that helps with that with the lvling. The fact that it is so isolated is not reassuring that they want to have a real pvp atmosphere in their game other than warzones... or illum, a large 'open world' warzone.

 

I think open world means that you can run into players questing areas, or cities... so how is that possible on illum with objectives for pvp isolated away from questing? Its basically a large warzone....

[Enkenon]

In the end being hardcore does not necessarily mean you got a better game.

Making content impossibly hard is easy but making good content is not.

I believe that as the game grows we'll get harder content but what I

don't want and what I'm really tired of from other games is to get the impossible

"have to grind and raid for years" stuff.

[xorcist]

I posted this in peace. A simple nudge at the more vocal players that are dissatisfied with the content or difficulty ramping. Please don't assume to know my playtime or that I play this game 24 hours a day. As i said in my OP, assumptions, more often than not, fail the assumer.

 

its not an assumption. A main character and a bunch of alts to level 50 by this point in time is many many hours of game play. Reaching a very high legacy level? Then yes, sleep is good. In the OP, it reads that it has much time invested in the game. If I am in error, you are welcome to prove me wrong. You may submit a screenshot with total hours of game time as proof. Seriously. There is no MMORPG out there that can keep up to the rate in which some of you consume content. Just not possible. I seriously don't believe that nightmare mode is easy peasy for your group. I do believe you are asking for a 40 man operation that drops 2 pieces of gear so it is a status symbol and extremely rare to be seen among other players. Nothing wrong with the difficulty level there is now. It doesn't need to be ramped up. That isn't the problem. Investing too much time is however.

[VegaPhone]

In the end being hardcore does not necessarily mean you got a better game.

Making content impossibly hard is easy but making good content is not.

I believe that as the game grows we'll get harder content but what I

don't want and what I'm really tired of from other games is to get the impossible

"have to grind and raid for years" stuff.

 

Thats what MMOs are all about. Years and years of lvling. The good thing if you have a lvl 50, with the next bracket of lvls you have the next extra lvls to do instead of starting the game from the beginning.

 

That is part of the attraction of an MMO and the continuation of more lvls, and seeing the a development of that.

 

Also not joining the game after 3 expansions and having to play for 1000 hours to reach end game like some old MMOs with several years of development.

Edited April 9, 2012 by VegaPhone

[Tahana]

 

So can I ask you this.. As an ex-hardcore player (life and starting a business have taken precedence), what is wrong with playing the game for what it is intended?

[DarthDetonate]

I agree with the OP that the current state of SWTOR is NOT targeted at the small percentage minority of players that are looking for very difficult challenges that require coordinated groups spending lots of time working together to overcome.

 

I find the idea that the content that has been released as 'hard' or 'nightmare' is tuned for this demographic to be laughable. It isn't hard, nor a challenge for players that have grown up on MMOs and have completed the most difficult content in the most difficult games.

 

It is instead designed for the average gamer, and the average gamer has been very successful against this content.

 

Which isn't to say it is a bad game or a game I don't find entertaining, but rather like the OP, I understand this isn't where I'm going to go for really difficult raiding content.

 

And while releasing the game with everything tuned for the average masses makes good business sense, I feel the designers have set themselves up for a very bumpy ride the next couple of patches.

 

Many players who wanted this to be their new hard raiding game have moved on, and it isn't clear they will come back. Meanwhile the average players have been able to complete content labeled 'hard' and 'nightmare' and feel that this is their game.

 

So what happens when the designers start making 'hard mode' actually hard and 'nightmare mode' something that only the most dedicated players in organized guilds can complete?

 

Will they be able to get the players who wanted this level of challenge come back to consume the new 'hard' and 'nightmare' content?

 

Will the players who have completed 'hard' and 'nightmare' when it was easy continue to have success, or will they get frustrated with the difficulty?

 

And for a preview of this, just look at the posts whining about the healing nerfs and medpack changes coming in 1.2, and this is before anyone gets a chance to see if the new content is more difficult than current content.

 

Heck many of the post already have some variant of 'I am a hard / nightmare raider and with these changes the content will be impossible'.

 

I don't envy the balancing act the developers will have to perform to keep from alienating various segments of the games population as they move forward.

 

In fact, if I were them I'd just focus on several broad segments and not try to please everyone, especially the small niches.

 

 

Very well stated and full of interesting and valuable questions (to the player base and the devs) as the game matures post 1.2

[Goretzu]

There have actually been several, but you make a good point. Those titles that do focus on hardcore PvP, specifically, either don't last long or subsist on a small player community over their lifespan. Developers have to balance focus on hardcore content with focus on the desires of other player demographics targeted by the game.

 

I've seen you say that repeatedly, but I don't believe it's true.

 

What are the examples of these games?

 

It can't be DAoC because for it's time it had decent subscribers number (2nd highest Western MMO at the time I believe), and is still going now.

 

There have been a few flawed ones, but no more (and in fact many less) than the failed PvE MMORPGs over the same period.

 

Even Warhammer Online doesn't really count, because it's development was stopped before it was even released and the budget massively cut. If WAR had been released as 1.3.6 rather than 1.0 it would have been a much more successful game, it wasn't the RvR that killed it, it was the flaws and lack of development budget/being released far too early.

[DarthDetonate]

So can I ask you this.. As an ex-hardcore player (life and starting a business have taken precedence), what is wrong with playing the game for what it is intended?

 

Absolutely nothing sir. Again, this post was aimed am my more vocal HC brethren wanting something I don't believe was intended (at least for now) as evidenced By the SWTOR Panel discussion.

[Qoojo]

My definition of hardcore is one where the person plays far too long and whines that there is not enough content to support their no life constant playing. I stereotype them as late teens and 20s kids with nothing better to do. So I don't really care if a game caters to them or not.

[SableShadow]

It's the Pareto principle in action

 

Well...since the Pareto Principle, the "80/20 rule", would in this case mean "80% of revenue comes from 20% of the player base" I don't think citing it strengthens your points.

 

I'm not sure it would even apply under this pricing model, though I could be wrong.

 

What you're saying is "volume is volume".

Edited April 9, 2012 by SableShadow

[VegaPhone]

Very well stated and full of interesting and valuable questions (to the player base and the devs) as the game matures post 1.2

 

Except if the game is designed for casuals then they failed.

 

A casual will slowly get to lvl 50, then most likely only have a few hours to play over a week.

 

So raids, FP, and other content which takes several hours in one sitting is piontless. So raids and ops are for hardcore players.

 

The casuals will want something easy to do, and takes a little while. Thats why mini games, and warzones should be in this game. If this game was properly designed for casuals it would have a lot of mini games as endgame and a lot more warzones.

 

The casuals can still play story mode OPs or whatever because even though the fights can take a while they would be easy enough to complete one phase in a small amount of time... however, there is rarely a casual guild that will organize a raid which takes an hour to meet up to only play for an hour... so again raids/ops are not for casuals.

 

So if they want to balance thier 300 million management better for thier target market then they need more end game which is more accessible for casual players.

 

Also casual players who roll alts will want the legacy 1.2 to be affordable for them. So rolling an alt might be an attraction for casuals but to reach an endgame they cant play is pointless.

 

So failed design by BW. The end game is not for casuals. The game is a bastardization of casual lvling, with hardcore ops/raids, and some sprinkling of mini games (space combat) with a few warzones... and they say their target market is casuals... its a sloppy mess and they need more actual casual content which even the hardcore players can play as well. YAY!

[Dayln]

In an MMO

 

Every player, regardless if they log in once a week, or for 12 hours a day, generates the same amount of income for the game, however the one logging in for 12 hours a day certainly takes up more resources for the same income they provide.

 

As the vast, and I do mean VAST majority of players are casual, any MMO that did not cater to that audience is committing suicide, unless they are a niche game ( as has been mentioned as EVE is ) who isn’t in contention as a major MMO