3 Days as an Advanced Prototype on live: An in-depth Pyro BH’s look

[TheOpf]

But if you time vent heat on boss fights it's very hard to overheat without rapid shots/RP. I'm not even spec'd into free RP. Spamming FB/PFT/Immolate, well timed vent, never have to use Rapid shots. Just did NNM EV in AP first time I didn't spec back to Pyro for raid in awhile. Did amazingly well IMO. I killed my guy 3rd, max HP, 2nd max HP, the other was one of the tank HP ones. Which in my raid is typical when I'm pyro. So they are about same to me.

 

Anyways nice post, was on AP bandwagon for PvP but liking it more for PVE now.

 

Really you dumped the Free RP from your build so how did your build work? Did you sped into RB/Charged than? Did you spec out of Iron Fist? How often did you break 40 heat and have to vent?

 

Immolate/FBx5/PFT is straight burst. But don't you end up with three seconds between The final FB and PFT?

[Mapex]

Honestly a 30% slow probably still isn't worth the 4+ points. The more I play non-RS spec the less I want to have to spend any points there.

 

The slow is definitely worth the 4 extra points. A lot of times you don't get kills is because the enemy runs away from you, retreating behind his friends. Also, since the other melee classes have better defensive CDs, you will need to kite them a little bit in order to outlast them and RB helps a great deal with that.

 

@TheOpf

 

Indeed; the FBx5 spam makes you overheat easily. That's why Flame Barrage is so important and a good rotation where you use RP after Immolate and after FB spam allows you to buy some time before you unleash your Flame Thrower.

 

To reiterate for those who haven't seen me post it:

 

ED -> Immolate -> RB -> RP (Heat-free) -> RS (only if CG procs) -> FBx5 -> RP (83% chance it will be Heat-free) -> Flame Thrower (5 stacks)

 

In 1.2 this changes to:

 

ED -> Immolate -> RB -> RP (Heat-free) -> RS (68% chance CG procs before next RP) -> FBx4 -> RP (76% chance it will be Heat-free) -> Flame Thrower (5 stacks) -> RS (90% chance CG procs after 2x RP and full RB initial + ticks)

 

Of course, this is a priority rotation which resolves around stacking up Flame Thrower ASAP, so Rocket Punch and Immolate will have to wait if you are sitting on 5 stacks of PFT.

 

@Coramac

 

Everything you said, exactly.

[TheOpf]

I'll rephrase what I previously said- this is the difference between playing the spec for a long time and someone who's played it a lot longer than three days.

 

I am by no means an expert on the class, nor was I trying to come off as one, and I apologize if that was perceived. I was simply pointing out that making the switch to AP from pyro guarantees you will play poorly at first. Getting used to not having a slow is still the toughest thing for me.

 

The rest of your points I agree with. I have yet to run into another AP/Tactics guy who played decently. I actually started working with an AP guy who has been playing the tree since launch. I destroyed his damage and control in a WZ, and since we were grouped he asked how I did it. I had doubled up his damage. I said I was able to use PFT. He was under the impression that it was too tough to use, and was just FB/RB/RS spamming.

 

Near the end of the WZ, we were both fighting a target, and he started going NOOOO! When I asked him what he said, I had 5 stacks! I had 5 stacks and the guy died before I could use it!! haha! In the entire time since launch he had never used PFT on a target. I tell this story to point out the common misunderstanding of the tree. He thought I was pyro because of the damage I did. He just assumed he was supposed to do half the damage of a Pyro.

 

You are 100 percent correct, in that the more I play, the more I find different ways to setup PFT. There is always a way, it just takes awareness and the desire to setup pft. I have found the non-RS/RB rotation to be the most effective in pvp for allowing me to setup PFT quickly.

 

Humorously enough I ran into a Vanguard in my last WZ. We had huttball 10 out of 12 times last nigh ugh. Does Fire Pulse have the same animation as Immolate?

 

Anyways, this guy and I had some fun. He was definitely a tactics guy. Only he was using the HiB rotation, and I was not. I destroyed him so many times. He actually tried to find me in several 1v1 situations as I was running rails he would pull me down so we could fight. Getting into PFT sooner and watching his health drop was awesome for me. It was odd that he never once interrupted my pft. I interrupted his PG twice, but in most fights he never attempted to use PG. He did run with Ion Overload on as his buff. He did grapple me into the acid twice, and I repaid the favor in kind as well.

[TheOpf]

The slow is definitely worth the 4 extra points. A lot of times you don't get kills is because the enemy runs away from you, retreating behind his friends. Also, since the other melee classeshave better defensive CDs, you will need to kite them a little bit in order to outlast them and RB helps a great deal with that.

 

I don't find the spammable slow to be more in line with the improved Quell. It will be nice, but I am more excited about PFT's slow. I think the slow will be nice for those Operatives and sage healers who like to freaking run around while shielding or healing or the pillar hoppers or like you pointed out you are beating on someone and they flee behind their group.

 

@TheOpf

 

Indeed; the FBx5 spam makes you overheat easily. That's why Flame Barrage is so important and a good rotation where you use RP after Immolate and after FB spam allows you to buy some time before you unleash your Flame Thrower.

 

To reiterate for those who haven't seen me post it:

 

ED -> Immolate -> RB -> RP (Heat-free) -> RS (only if CG procs) -> FBx5 -> RP (83% chance it will be Heat-free) -> Flame Thrower (5 stacks)

 

In 1.2 this changes to:

 

ED -> Immolate -> RB -> RP (Heat-free) -> RS (68% chance CG procs before next RP) -> FBx4 -> RP (76% chance it will be Heat-free) -> Flame Thrower (5 stacks) -> RS (90% chance CG procs after 2x RP and full RB initial + ticks)

 

Of course, this is a priority rotation which resolves around stacking up Flame Thrower ASAP, so Rocket Punch and Immolate will have to wait if you are sitting on 5 stacks of PFT.

 

I still think your rotation is extremely long, but that is the RB/RS rotation. The problem is that your RP isn't off CD after your FBx5 that's only 4.5 seconds and 1.5 seconds for RS that means you are sitting around waiting for 3 seconds for RP to be available. If you pop pft, than you have an issue of passing the 40 heat because you used RB and RS. Your first RP has to be used immediately after Immolate to be available after your RB/RS/FBx5 usage. Even then y ou are only at 7.5 seconds and you have to wait 1.5 seconds to use your free RP.

 

If you use PFT on 5 stacks than you would have to start your next rotation with RP. This is why the non-RS/RB rotation works better. It's smoother, less clunky, and provides the same damage over the course of a fight. It's definitely better in terms of short term burst in pvp.

 

Non-RS/RB rotation:

ED - Immolate - FBx3 - RP - FBx2 - PFT, Immolate - FBx3 - RP - FBx2 - PFT.

 

1.2 Rotation lends itself much easier to a RS build.

ED - Immolate - RB - RP - RS - FBx4 - PFT - RP, Immolate, RB, RS, FBx4 and so on

 

Essentially it becomes a RP weave rotation.

 

Granted if the GCD counts against the RP cooldown that leaves you with 7.5 seconds between RP's. which means it can be weaved into each build.

 

Non-RS/RB:

ED - Immolate -FBx3 - RP - FBx2, PFT - Immolate, FBx3 - RP - FBx2 PFT and so on.

 

 

RS/RB rotation:

ED - Immolate - RP - RB - RS - FBx5 - RP - PFT makes more sense then.

 

However, my problem still sits in that you are using a free RP when you should be using PFT if you move RP to immediately after PFT, you then run a RP/Imm/RB/RS/FBx2/RP/FBx3 - pft type of rotation.

 

That pushes your PFT's further and further back. Does this makes sense? The only question is does the GCD count against the CD of the abilities?

Edited April 10, 2012 by TheOpf

[Cryowolf]

Does Fire Pulse have the same animation as Immolate?

 

Not even close. Fire Pulse has a super lame animation. Hopefully it will be looking better in 1.2. According to patch notes it is being updated.

 

"Fire Pulse's visual effect more accurately represents its functionality."

[Karandor]

The slow is definitely worth the 4 extra points. A lot of times you don't get kills is because the enemy runs away from you, retreating behind his friends. Also, since the other melee classes have better defensive CDs, you will need to kite them a little bit in order to outlast them and RB helps a great deal with that.

 

@TheOpf

 

Indeed; the FBx5 spam makes you overheat easily. That's why Flame Barrage is so important and a good rotation where you use RP after Immolate and after FB spam allows you to buy some time before you unleash your Flame Thrower.

 

To reiterate for those who haven't seen me post it:

 

ED -> Immolate -> RB -> RP (Heat-free) -> RS (only if CG procs) -> FBx5 -> RP (83% chance it will be Heat-free) -> Flame Thrower (5 stacks)

 

In 1.2 this changes to:

 

ED -> Immolate -> RB -> RP (Heat-free) -> RS (68% chance CG procs before next RP) -> FBx4 -> RP (76% chance it will be Heat-free) -> Flame Thrower (5 stacks) -> RS (90% chance CG procs after 2x RP and full RB initial + ticks)

 

Of course, this is a priority rotation which resolves around stacking up Flame Thrower ASAP, so Rocket Punch and Immolate will have to wait if you are sitting on 5 stacks of PFT.

 

@Coramac

 

Everything you said, exactly.

 

I honestly don't have trouble with runners. 10m range and 15% increased move-speed plus HtL + grapple + other CC is enough tools for me I find. If people run into their team I blast down the AE pain.

 

 

I still say using gut/RB and HiB/RS is a waste and still will be after the patch. Heck after the patch PG/PFT is going to be so much better that it's even more of a waste of GCD.

 

 

The problem isn't just the 4 points, it's that I need another 4 to make those 4 worth it (ie make RS/HiB able to do decent damage) as well as 5% bonus accuracy to make the damage even reliable. I have the accuracy right now (to lazy to swap mods before patch, just wearing mostly champ with swapped mods instead of BM) but won't after the patch.

 

You only need to put 2 points towards HiB and gut at all in a tactics build. 1 point in tier 1 to open up the next tier and 1 point in Gut to give you a DoT for stealthers. To make HiB worth using you need to spend another 8 points.

 

Right now on a Vanguard (since we get the bonus damage on sticky grenade and mortar volley, it is ridiculous) the best way to play tactics is 5X ion pulse, sticky, mortar volley, pulse cannon, fire pulse, stockstrike. Sticky + MV + PC can hit 20k AE if everything crits. Generally you'll do 15k+ if you pop relic + adrenal + battle awareness. This wins games of voidstar brutally and totally. Especially when combined with a focus spec guardian that I play with regularly.

 

There is no time for Gut and HiB at all. Need those stacks. Fire Pulse and SS get used because they are cheap and high damage for good burst on anyone who survives the AE.

[Coramac]

I am by no means an expert on the class, nor was I trying to come off as one, and I apologize if that was perceived. I was simply pointing out that making the switch to AP from pyro guarantees you will play poorly at first. Getting used to not having a slow is still the toughest thing for me.

 

It wasn't directed at you. You basically went through the same cycle I did when I made the switch. I went Tactics, didn't like it, and respec'd back. I felt that FT / PC was too difficult to pull off. I went back and did more theory crafting trying to make the changes to Assault work with my playstyle and decided that it was unworkable. I respec'd and then over some more time with Tactics I was like "ooooh... I can use FT / PC." You see a lot of PTs and Vanguards who will claim it's completely unusable and have never played the spec or played it for a short period of time.

 

The rest of your points I agree with. I have yet to run into another AP/Tactics guy who played decently. I actually started working with an AP guy who has been playing the tree since launch. I destroyed his damage and control in a WZ, and since we were grouped he asked how I did it. I had doubled up his damage. I said I was able to use PFT. He was under the impression that it was too tough to use, and was just FB/RB/RS spamming.

 

Near the end of the WZ, we were both fighting a target, and he started going NOOOO! When I asked him what he said, I had 5 stacks! I had 5 stacks and the guy died before I could use it!! haha! In the entire time since launch he had never used PFT on a target. I tell this story to point out the common misunderstanding of the tree. He thought I was pyro because of the damage I did. He just assumed he was supposed to do half the damage of a Pyro.

 

For a long time, that's what people thought the spec was all about. I think in some of my older posts I talk about how poor of an idea it was to be so dependent on FT / PC.

 

You are 100 percent correct, in that the more I play, the more I find different ways to setup PFT. There is always a way, it just takes awareness and the desire to setup pft. I have found the non-RS/RB rotation to be the most effective in pvp for allowing me to setup PFT quickly.

 

It's definitely not intuitive to most MMO players here. To me, positionally dependent builds have really been less emphasized. On top of that, I can think of only one class in all the MMOs that had a playstyle revolving around a positional cone and that was the Holy Paladin in... Cata? Not sure. Effectively using the cone heal provided massive healing to the Beacon target.

 

Humorously enough I ran into a Vanguard in my last WZ. We had huttball 10 out of 12 times last nigh ugh. Does Fire Pulse have the same animation as Immolate?

 

Anyways, this guy and I had some fun. He was definitely a tactics guy. Only he was using the HiB rotation, and I was not. I destroyed him so many times. He actually tried to find me in several 1v1 situations as I was running rails he would pull me down so we could fight. Getting into PFT sooner and watching his health drop was awesome for me. It was odd that he never once interrupted my pft. I interrupted his PG twice, but in most fights he never attempted to use PG. He did run with Ion Overload on as his buff. He did grapple me into the acid twice, and I repaid the favor in kind as well.

 

Honestly, I don't know what Fire Pulse's animation is lol. It's very subtle if there is one. There is an animation that's easy to miss on the target. It's basically a little bit of fire.

 

I have all the talents for HIB and like having them, but I very, very rarely use it. I use Gut even less frequently. I pretty much just use it when someone else has made a target vulnerable, it will autocrit and I'm outside 10m, Fire Pulse is on CD, or I need just a little bit more damage. In 10 WZs, I probably use it 5-7 times and Gut around 2-3 times. I'm just not sure I can get anything better for the points.

[TheOpf]

Okay after talking with Mapex and seeing his rotation. I have realized some errors in the Non-RB/RS build (It really needs a better name).

 

Pre 1.2 rotation:

 

ED/Sticky - Immolate/Fire Pulse - Flame Burst/Ion Pulse x3 - Rocket Punch/Stockstrike - FB/IP x 2 - PFT/PG

 

You can then weave in the free RP/SS anywhere within the FB/IP spam as long as it's not at 5 stacks.

 

Honestly Mapex, I don't see how you using RB/Gut and RS/HiB doesn't increase your heat worse than the non-RS/RB build.

[dardack]

Really you dumped the Free RP from your build so how did your build work? Did you sped into RB/Charged than? Did you spec out of Iron Fist? How often did you break 40 heat and have to vent?

 

Immolate/FBx5/PFT is straight burst. But don't you end up with three seconds between The final FB and PFT?

 

I apologize I do have the free RP, I thought I hadn't. But I don't really use RP, guess I should if it's free. Yes I don't have iron fist. This is more pvp build. So i have the 16% armor, and the 2% reduction in damage, and 20% while stunned.

 

I go over 40 alot, but the 8 heat vented while being in HEGC is huge. If you know when it's coming you can go over 40 easily without issue.

[dardack]

Also, everyone saying wasting 4 points in a 30% slow. Isn't the slow replacing Vent heal, so if I have vent heal already I'm not wasting any points? and I'll still get the slow?

 

Or is my memory really that bad (read the BH patch notes weeks ago when they first hit PTS forums and haven't looked again since).

Edited April 10, 2012 by dardack

[Karandor]

Okay after talking with Mapex and seeing his rotation. I have realized some errors in the Non-RB/RS build (It really needs a better name).

 

Pre 1.2 rotation:

 

ED/Sticky - Immolate/Fire Pulse - Flame Burst/Ion Pulse x3 - Rocket Punch/Stockstrike - FB/IP x 2 - PFT/PG

 

You can then weave in the free RP/SS anywhere within the FB/IP spam as long as it's not at 5 stacks.

 

Honestly Mapex, I don't see how you using RB/Gut and RS/HiB doesn't increase your heat worse than the non-RS/RB build.

 

Name it the Gordon Clark after Gordon Haddon Clark born august 31 1902.

 

Gordon Haddon Clark (August 31, 1902 – April 9, 1985) was an American philosopher and Calvinist theologian. He was a primary advocate for the idea of presuppositional apologetics and was chairman of the Philosophy Department at Butler University for 28 years. He was an expert in pre-Socratic and ancient philosophy and was noted for his rigor in defending propositional revelation against all forms of empiricism and rationalism, in arguing that all truth is propositional and in applying the laws of logic. His theory of knowledge is sometimes called scripturalism.

 

I find it fitting, others may not.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Karandor

[Saprezzan]

For starters, just a small digression.

 

Using PFT/PC correctly definitely does require skill and good situational awareness - that's why I can see why some players argue that AP does need more skill to play well than the pretty straightforward Pyro (on the other hand, Pyro players have to deal with the heat management though).

 

 

As for topic at hand, I've been saying for a long time that Charged Gauntlets/Combat Tactics has no place in the tree - it definitely needs to be reworked. It could add some sort of debuff, like Mapex suggested. Or simply affect Immolate instead. But most of all, I'd like it to affect Retractable Blade instead - it'd make sense to have the snare attached to it then, at the end of the long chain.

 

I reckon a debuff of some sort would make most sense - and could prove valuable in group combat. Could be a resistance debuff (5-10% across the board).

Edited April 10, 2012 by Saprezzan

[TheOpf]

Also, everyone saying wasting 4 points in a 30% slow. Isn't the slow replacing Vent heal, so if I have vent heal already I'm not wasting any points? and I'll still get the slow?

 

Or is my memory really that bad (read the BH patch notes weeks ago when they first hit PTS forums and haven't looked again since).

 

Because in 1.2, the 30 percent RB Snare is connected to Charged Gauntlets, which was to everyone's chagrin. Even those who use both RB and RS regularly were not too pleased to see it attached to Charged Gauntlets. My feeling based on previous bioware comments is that they don't like the idea of spam one button to big attack modes. Which is why Tracer missile spam is seeing a change.

 

It's also why Immolate now adds to the PFT stacks. They should make RB add a stack, because I still don't want to use it.

[BobaFaceroll]

Wow, that's really a drag. I was looking forward to it working as described in the patch notes. :/ Edited April 10, 2012 by BobaFaceroll

[TheOpf]

Name it the Gordon Clark after Gordon Haddon Clark born august 31 1902.

 

Gordon Haddon Clark (August 31, 1902 – April 9, 1985) was an American philosopher and Calvinist theologian. He was a primary advocate for the idea of presuppositional apologetics and was chairman of the Philosophy Department at Butler University for 28 years. He was an expert in pre-Socratic and ancient philosophy and was noted for his rigor in defending propositional revelation against all forms of empiricism and rationalism, in arguing that all truth is propositional and in applying the laws of logic. His theory of knowledge is sometimes called scripturalism.

 

I find it fitting, others may not.

 

haha, I like it. I am religious and had never heard of the man, could be because I am not a Calvinist, but I like the name haha. I can see it being shortened to GHC Build which is still pretty cool.

 

So we now have the two standard builds/rotations; The Deep Full AP build, and the GORDON HADDON CLARK build. Didn't it feel more impressive with three names and all caps .

Edited April 10, 2012 by TheOpf

[TheOpf]

For starters, just a small digression.

 

Using PFT/PC correctly definitely does require skill and good situational awareness - that's why I can see why some players argue that AP does need more skill to play well than the pretty straightforward Pyro (on the other hand, Pyro players have to deal with the heat management though).

 

Absolutely, it's one of my main arguments with Hizoka. It doesn't require more skill but a different set of skills. Managing heat can be a ton of trouble for some, so the AP tree flows easier. Anyways, I don't want to start that discussion with the Hizz again.

 

 

As for topic at hand, I've been saying for a long time that Charged Gauntlets/Combat Tactics has no place in the tree - it definitely needs to be reworked. It could add some sort of debuff, like Mapex suggested. Or simply affect Immolate instead. But most of all, I'd like it to affect Retractable Blade instead - it'd make sense to have the snare attached to it then, at the end of the long chain.

 

I reckon a debuff of some sort would make most sense - and could prove valuable in group combat. Could be a resistance debuff (5-10% across the board).

 

It's getting a slow in 1.2, 30 percent 2 sec snare. Nothing big, but it will provide some measure of relief for those who use RB/Gut.

[Gomezie]

Sorry.. respect for the effort and template, but that's a gay name

[Saprezzan]

It's getting a slow in 1.2, 30 percent 2 sec snare. Nothing big, but it will provide some measure of relief for those who use RB/Gut.

 

Yeah, I know - and it's a good change; Charged Gauntlets still needs to go though. RS has little place in this tree.

[Coramac]

Yeah, I know - and it's a good change; Charged Gauntlets still needs to go though. RS has little place in this tree.

 

If they condensed the DoT into 6 seconds, it'd go a long way to making this ability useful. Just give it a 12-15 second CD.

[TheOpf]

Sorry.. respect for the effort and template, but that's a gay name

 

haha, well the only other name that I had was the Anam Itheoir build which is Gaelic for Devourer of souls, and the name of my PT which I did all the testing with. That seemed a little too egotistical since a majority of the thoughts came from the community.

 

I guess we could put it up to a vote. Get 3-5 names and see which one is voted the top. But come on there are much worse names.

 

Iron Fist (taken from a talent where he only spends two points) build which took me a few days to figure out how he got the name.

 

The Carolina Parakeet - I am still confused on the naming of this one.

 

Someone named the 8/8/25 and I still can't remember that name.

 

Let's not forget the really horrible Cigar City mafia build name.

 

i would say out of all of those - The GHC Build is the best name.

[TheOpf]

If they condensed the DoT into 6 seconds, it'd go a long way to making this ability useful. Just give it a 12-15 second CD.

 

That would only make sense if the dot lasted as long as the CD. I think what many of us hate is the Energy to damage ratio. I think the base numbers are better with buffs than most of our attacks, but it takes time to get there. I think it came out to a baseline of 77damage per tick. Which is fine, and I don't see a problem with adding RB into a rotation. Personally the only ability I don't like using is RS.

 

RB is 16 heat for a baseline damage of 1900 over 18 seconds. The initial attack is really weak and where most people get hurt because they could hit for 3400 instead of 700 with a dot so the additional damage didn't make up for the 2800 damage lost. I would have to test RB to see what it's actual damage count is on a boss. To really come up with some plus minuses.

[LoKiei]

It's getting a slow in 1.2, 30 percent 2 sec snare. Nothing big, but it will provide some measure of relief for those who use RB/Gut.

 

I thought the snare was 6s?

[Karandor]

We get our combat logs thursday so we'll be able to see where different specs and rotations stand. I'm so excited.

 

 

I really think that removing RB and RS from a rotation will win out in PvE and PvP both. If it doesn't I will be surprised.

[TheOpf]

I thought the snare was 6s?

 

You are correct, and i was wrong. It is 6seconds which makes it better than I thought, but still not worth speccing into Charged Gauntlets yet.

[TheOpf]

We get our combat logs thursday so we'll be able to see where different specs and rotations stand. I'm so excited.

 

 

I really think that removing RB and RS from a rotation will win out in PvE and PvP both. If it doesn't I will be surprised.

 

Really, where was this announced? Why Thursday?