3 Days as an Advanced Prototype on live: An in-depth Pyro BH’s look

[Karandor]

No one has stunned you, ran away to get distance, and started unloading on you? No one has waited for your HO to wear off before knocking you away and rooting you? It's those situations (and they will be common once people catch on) and more where that crit-RS will be extra handy.

 

I don't deny that the rotation can use some cleaning up - spamming FB 5 times is ridiculous and 4 times isn't that much better - but I wouldn't discount the power of a free ranged crit attack every 15 seconds, especially as it bypasses certain mechanics such as the Shadow/Assassin's cooldown that grants 100% immunity to Tech/Force attacks.

 

Except that the immunity cleanses all DoTs and you won't be able to use RS anyway unless you hit it just before he pops his immunity. Not too mention there are 5 classes that have a defensive CD to be almost immune to RS (assassin, marauder, jugg, sniper, operative) vs the single class that can be immune to tech. On the assassin marauder and jugg those also last 12s vs the max 5s tech immunity on an assassin.

 

 

A crit FB hits almost as hard as a crit RS. RS also requires you to put RB into your rotation. Right now you won't have a crit RS every 15s unless you spam RB which is idiotic. The 3 points in 9% aim will increase your damage more than the 6 points put towards RS.

 

I removed RS and have seen no decrease in my killing power.

[gravioli]

I did a several hours testing a non RS build with unmodified combat tech gear (no extra surge/power mods) and my FB crits were 2000-2500 on average. I threw in a few RS on occassion but never got one to crit, but based on the non-crit damage, they would probably crit for 1400-1600. I can't see how adding all the RS buffing talents in the AP and ST trees is going to make RS crits hit significantly harder than a crit FB. The only benefit I can see is the RS range, but to me that isn't worth sacrificing all those talent points. However, I must say that it is annoying not having a good long ranged weapon as an AP. Edited April 8, 2012 by gravioli

[Blurps]

It's a non-Rail Shot or Ion Pulse Build. Read the last few pages. From our testing RS simply prevents you from getting into PFT faster. More PFT = More damage

 

Oh I get why you don't pick the RS crit talent, when I spec Tactics I don't take it either. Just saying Serrated Blades is absolutely terrible and unless you want to get the crit talent it shouldn't be part of any build imo. Power Armour otoh while maybe not amazing is useful for each and every PT.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Blurps

[Hizoka]

I did a several hours testing a non RS build with unmodified combat tech gear (no extra surge/power mods) and my FB crits were 2000-2500 on average. I threw in a few RS on occassion but never got one to crit, but based on the non-crit damage, they would probably crit for 1400-1600. I can't see how adding all the RS buffing talents in the AP and ST trees is going to make RS crits hit significantly harder than a crit FB. The only benefit I can see is the RS range, but to me that isn't worth sacrificing all those talent points. However, I must say that it is annoying not having a good long ranged weapon as an AP.

 

a non crit RS > non crit FB and crit RS > crit FB

Edited April 8, 2012 by Hizoka

[gravioli]

a non crit RS > non crit FB and crit RS is close to crit FB

 

On the skill description, RS does more damage than FB, but armor mitigation made it very lackluster for me. With 1 point in Puncture my regular RS hit for 700-800. I never saw anything close to 1000. However, my FB was always over 1000 on regular hits. Maybe full Rail Loaders and Puncture would make RS on par with FB.

[Mapex]

I did a several hours testing a non RS build with unmodified combat tech gear (no extra surge/power mods) and my FB crits were 2000-2500 on average. I threw in a few RS on occassion but never got one to crit, but based on the non-crit damage, they would probably crit for 1400-1600. I can't see how adding all the RS buffing talents in the AP and ST trees is going to make RS crits hit significantly harder than a crit FB. The only benefit I can see is the RS range, but to me that isn't worth sacrificing all those talent points. However, I must say that it is annoying not having a good long ranged weapon as an AP.

Assuming you specced into Puncture and Improved Rail Loaders, your RS crit will be consistently higher than your FB crit. When I crit with RS it's in the 2200-2600 range. When I crit with FB, it's in the 1700-2200 range. Those RS buffing talents are very useful.

 

FB baseline hits 2/3 as hard as Rail Shot and we don't have enough Power to minimize that gap just yet. Rail Shot benefits from 60% armor pen and 6% damage while Flame Burst benefits from 12% damage and 30% crit damage bonus. FB by design will never be allowed to hit harder than Rail Shot, especially since the latter is subject to Defense, Shield (which aren't prevalent in current warzones) and 40% of the opponent's Armor. There may be a point when we have enough Power to bridge the gap such that the 12% damage boost allows FB to outperform RS, but by then we'll already be on 1.2 (or 1.4 for that matter) and have the guaranteed RS crit via CG anyway.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Mapex

[BlazingShadow]

I did a several hours testing a non RS build with unmodified combat tech gear (no extra surge/power mods) and my FB crits were 2000-2500 on average. I threw in a few RS on occassion but never got one to crit, but based on the non-crit damage, they would probably crit for 1400-1600. I can't see how adding all the RS buffing talents in the AP and ST trees is going to make RS crits hit significantly harder than a crit FB. The only benefit I can see is the RS range, but to me that isn't worth sacrificing all those talent points. However, I must say that it is annoying not having a good long ranged weapon as an AP.

 

THis is wrong. Even on live, railshot crits hit for about 2500-2800.

[Hizoka]

It is my conclusion that it will take a higher skill level to master because of it's positioning and damage burst requirements than a well played Pyro. That being said, the real question is why?

 

 

that is what it boils down to, the spec works just you have to be a better player to be good at it and so you rather be lazy then good.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Hizoka

[Xsorus]

AP spec I never crit below 2000 on FB, Rail shot is usually 2400-2600 with AP spec, with 2600 being more common.

 

Removing the points from the Railshot setup allows ya to pick up quite a few more abilities that I honestly think is more useful then a slightly harder hitting ability on crit then FB. That I use every 15 seconds.

 

I think the problem is APs Railshot just doesn't hit hard enough to warrant the points into improving it.

 

If AP's Railshot has something else, like a Debuff attached to it (I don't think a damage increase would be inline with it, that should be Pyro's gig) it'd probably be more useful, say a 3 Second Immobilize, or a stat debuff ect ect.

[Xsorus]

THis is wrong. Even on live, railshot crits hit for about 2500-2800.

 

He is using unmodified Combat Tech armor, so that's probably why.

 

Railshot crits with around 50% surge rating wouldn't hit very hard compared to the FB ones.

[Mapex]

that is what it boils down to, the spec works just you have to be a better player to be good at it and so you rather be lazy then good.

 

More important than that, some people prefer the unique playstyle. After all, you're a melee-oriented Mandalorian warrior who fights Jedi with his bare fists; I've wanted to play this exact archetype for 9 years since KotOR came out.

 

Some people may prefer the challenge as well (I do), but the main take away is that some playstyles vibe with certain players more so than others. I really wanted to be a tank Powertech but AP has won me over so much that I am willing to go DPS spec instead because the playstyle is more enjoyable to me. PyroTech is fun as hell as well but I prefer channeling Flame Thrower to spamming DoTs and Rail Shots.

 

@Xsorus

 

I don't disagree that Rail Shot could use more than just a guaranteed crit in the AP tree. I always thought a cool mechanic would be to blind your enemy via Rail Shot crit to aid in some survivability and add extra utility.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Mapex

[Hizoka]

He is using unmodified Combat Tech armor, so that's probably why.

 

Railshot crits with around 50% surge rating wouldn't hit very hard compared to the FB ones.

 

that is the issue, you have so many people judging a spec with incorrect gear. you poorly gear any spec and it will perform like crap.

[Xsorus]

that is the issue, you have so many people judging a spec with incorrect gear. you poorly gear any spec and it will perform like crap.

 

however even with correct gear it's a slight damage increase for a massive amount of points..

 

That is where the problem is.

[Hizoka]

however even with correct gear it's a slight damage increase for a massive amount of points..

 

That is where the problem is.

 

that is not at all correct. but hey if thinking that allows you to believe pyro is 'so much better" then by all means live in ignorance, after all ignorance they say is bliss.

[Agooz]

that is the issue, you have so many people judging a spec with incorrect gear. you poorly gear any spec and it will perform like crap.

 

It's people like this that will NEVER win anyone over with their illogical arguments. If you think it is worth NINE (9) points in talents spent to make use of RS, an ability on a 15sec cooldown, which means in PvP, you will most likely just use it ONCE or at best TWICE, then fine...do it. But dont try to convince ANY logical person that it is worth it. EVEN if it does 10%/20% more than FB, it is STILL not worth nine points to do an extra 300-600 damage every 15sec on RS.

 

It is funny that you are so adamant about making RS part of your rotation. I think it just shows the level of jealousy of Pyros, since you want to feel that AP can also get a "crit" RS. Only difference is, Pyro's RS routinely crits for 4k+ without cooldowns. I can feel your frustration trying to squeeze every bit of damage out of the AP tree, but you are much better off throwing an FB instead of an RS and getting PFT pumping earlier, which IS really the staple of the AP tree.

 

You constantly make fun of players playing Pyros and how we dont have skills, bla bla bla, when in fact we are the ones that led to the AP getting buffed, and we are the ones that are telling you how to spec and how to play the AP tree properly

[gravioli]

I was using the Non-RS build from above so only had 1 point in Puncture. I never hit anyone in a WZ for over 1000 with a RS (never once got a crit). In fact, my first two RSs hit for ~750-850 (my RS tooltip says they should hit for 1400-1800). This was in full unmodified (no surge/power mod swaps) BM Eliminator/Combat Tech gear. Trust me, I was shocked too considering RS was so outstanding on my PT build. I could only conclude that armor mitigation and deflection/dodge make RS awful without all the first tier RS and mid/upper tier Pyro RS enhancements. Or, maybe the abundance of tank/dps hybrids on my server or just really bad luck on my RSs was the reason the damage appeared so bad.

 

In comparison, FB was hitting consistantly for over 1000 non-crit and 2000 crit. Spending 9 points to make RS better just doesn't seem like an economical use of talent points if you are doing an AP dps build. I'd rather spend those points somewhere else like Steely Resolve, etc.

 

On a side not, I tested RS in PvE and it does hit as the tooltip claims. So it is the armor mitigation on other players that makes it so bad.

 

Also, if I wasn't so cheap to swap my surge/power mods from my Eliminator set, I would also expect my FB to hit harder as well. Anyways, I am sticking with a non-RS focused build until someone posts a video of a AP dps with buffed RSs doing amazing things.

 

Edit: My best dps in a WZ has been ~300k, but I find myself more useful as an annoyance for opposing teams than someone who explodes everyone like a pyrotech.

Edited April 8, 2012 by gravioli

[Hizoka]

It's people like this that will NEVER win anyone over with their illogical arguments. If you think it is worth NINE (9) points in talents spent to make use of RS, an ability on a 15sec cooldown, which means in PvP, you will most likely just use it ONCE or at best TWICE, then fine...do it. But dont try to convince ANY logical person that it is worth it. EVEN if it does 10%/20% more than FB, it is STILL not worth nine points to do an extra 300-600 damage every 15sec on RS.

 

It is funny that you are so adamant about making RS part of your rotation. I think it just shows the level of jealousy of Pyros, since you want to feel that AP can also get a "crit" RS. Only difference is, Pyro's RS routinely crits for 4k+ without cooldowns. I can feel your frustration trying to squeeze every bit of damage out of the AP tree, but you are much better off throwing an FB instead of an RS and getting PFT pumping earlier, which IS really the staple of the AP tree.

 

You constantly make fun of players playing Pyros and how we dont have skills, bla bla bla, when in fact we are the ones that led to the AP getting buffed, and we are the ones that are telling you how to spec and how to play the AP tree properly

 

not everyone thinks of the game as pure PvP. Fact is even the devs have said this is a PvE game that has PvP in it. I am no so close minded to think about only one aspect of the game like so many others are.

[Hizoka]

Edit: My best dps in a WZ has been ~300k, but I find myself more useful as an annoyance for opposing teams than someone who explodes everyone like a pyrotech.

 

that is the other thing bad players cannot grasp. just doing alot of damage doesn't mean much if you still lose. 1million damage mans nothing if you lose. Its better to keep a few people out of a fight then it is to kill them and just let them rush back with full HP.

 

 

Removing a healer from a fight is far better then just bursting him down and letting him be useful elsewhere.

[Agooz]

not everyone thinks of the game as pure PvP. Fact is even the devs have said this is a PvE game that has PvP in it. I am no so close minded to think about only one aspect of the game like so many others are.

 

Umm, ok just to make sure, I re-read the OP again, and followed the 11pages, and I am pretty sure this thread is focusing on AP in PvP, but not that it really matters.

[gravioli]

that is the other thing bad players cannot grasp. just doing alot of damage doesn't mean much if you still lose. 1million damage mans nothing if you lose. Its better to keep a few people out of a fight then it is to kill them and just let them rush back with full HP.

 

 

Removing a healer from a fight is far better then just bursting him down and letting him be useful elsewhere.

 

Ummmm, if you are a dps spec your job is to do damage. Sounds like you are saying NOT killing a healer is better than killing a healer. A healer that is not dead can still interrupt caps/bomb placement. A dead healer can't do anything. I can't think of any situation in which keeping a healer alive is better than killing them except if he/she is on your own team.

Edited April 9, 2012 by gravioli

[Hizoka]

Ummmm, if you are a dps spec your job is to do damage. Sounds like you are saying NOT killing a healer is better than killing a healer. A healer that is not dead can still interrupt caps/bomb placement. A dead healer can't do anything. I can't think of any situation in which keeping a healer alive is better than killing them except if he/she is on your own team.

 

keeping a healer alive with no ability to heal > dead one respawning will full hp and energy/force.

[Agooz]

keeping a healer alive with no ability to heal > dead one respawning will full hp and energy/force.

 

OMG...so basically keeping an enemy healer alive, and keeping yourself occupied with that healer the entire time is > than killing that healer, which would take him out for anywhere from 15sec-45sec, and moving on to another priority target.

 

Ok, I see now, maybe you play an AP because its damage output is just enough to keep pressure on a healer, but not enough to cause him to die. That makes a lot of sense now. LOL

 

To everyone else. Stop reading anything posted by Hizoka, and you might actually learn something that would improve your understanding of the class and the game in general. If you dont take out a healer and QUICK, trust me or others who pvp often, you WILL die. Because any half decent team, even one that ISN'T a premade, will come to rescue the healer and focus fire on you. If you solo queue as a healer, always announce that you are one in the beginning of the game, so that people like me will annihilate that pest that is spam interrupting you lol.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Agooz

[Xsorus]

that is not at all correct. but hey if thinking that allows you to believe pyro is 'so much better" then by all means live in ignorance, after all ignorance they say is bliss.

 

Ehhh, I advocated AP for a very long time, It's a good spec if you just completely ignore that it's a DPS spec and instead run Ion.

 

It however cannot compete with Pyro currently on live in terms of damage.

[Xsorus]

keeping a healer alive with no ability to heal > dead one respawning will full hp and energy/force.

 

Most healers will not run out of energy/force, so that point moot.

 

Which makes the other point about keeping them alive moot.

 

I don't bother doing it on my Powertech, I simply blow through every healer i see, then move onto any DPS that I see.

[Hizoka]

OMG...so basically keeping an enemy healer alive, and keeping yourself occupied with that healer the entire time is > than killing that healer, which would take him out for anywhere from 15sec-45sec, and moving on to another priority target.

 

Ok, I see now, maybe you play an AP because its damage output is just enough to keep pressure on a healer, but not enough to cause him to die. That makes a lot of sense now. LOL

 

To everyone else. Stop reading anything posted by Hizoka, and you might actually learn something that would improve your understanding of the class and the game in general. If you dont take out a healer and QUICK, trust me or others who pvp often, you WILL die. Because any half decent team, even one that ISN'T a premade, will come to rescue the healer and focus fire on you. If you solo queue as a healer, always announce that you are one in the beginning of the game, so that people like me will annihilate that pest that is spam interrupting you lol.

 

dude you are twisting things... you are obviously not cappable of seeing any other option in PvP other then kill kill kill. That is what prevents you from ever being a top level player. But hey i'm just going to ignore you because you lack the intelligence to continue to talk to.