Question about High Energy Gas Cylinder

[Urothefox]

Do folks use this cylinder much? It seems that a small percentage boost to a bunch of abilities would be better than a chance to proc a dot through Combustible Gas Cylinder.

 

I know that there several abilities that modify Combustible Gas Cylinder, and come 1.2 it's going to be required for PPA, so it seems like a no brainer. But I'm intrigued by Prototype Cylinder Ventilation (vent 8 heat every 6 secs if using High Energy Gas Cylinder) in the AP tree.

 

Right now my points are split between Pyro and AP (I'm lvl 47 btw) and it seems like I'm able to control my heat very well.

 

Any thoughts?

[Taerrik]

Prototype cylinder ventilation is only needed if you intend to spam flame burst

[Mapex]

Do folks use this cylinder much? It seems that a small percentage boost to a bunch of abilities would be better than a chance to proc a dot through Combustible Gas Cylinder.

 

I know that there several abilities that modify Combustible Gas Cylinder, and come 1.2 it's going to be required for PPA, so it seems like a no brainer. But I'm intrigued by Prototype Cylinder Ventilation (vent 8 heat every 6 secs if using High Energy Gas Cylinder) in the AP tree.

 

Right now my points are split between Pyro and AP (I'm lvl 47 btw) and it seems like I'm able to control my heat very well.

 

Any thoughts?

 

HEGC is necessary for a deep Advanced Prototype spec. For PyroTech you want to use Combustible Gas because your entire tree depends on it; it's a very fire-DoT heavy tree.

 

I believe the fact that you split your points between the trees may have caused you to question the worth of the talent. That said, if you were to spec purely into AP, you will realize spamming Flame Burst > spamming Rapid Shots and HEGC's 8% elemental/internal damage > CGC's DoT. In this situation it would have been a no brainer to pick up Prototype Cylinder Ventilation.

 

So, IGC = Shieldtech, HEGC = AP, CGC = PyroTech and you want to make sure you get the talents that improve those cylinders for the appropriate trees as well. I hope that sheds more light on the talent in question.

[TheOpf]

HEGC is necessary for a deep Advanced Prototype spec. For PyroTech you want to use Combustible Gas because your entire tree depends on it; it's a very fire-DoT heavy tree.

 

I believe the fact that you split your points between the trees may have caused you to question the worth of the talent. That said, if you were to spec purely into AP, you will realize spamming Flame Burst > spamming Rapid Shots and HEGC's 8% elemental/internal damage > CGC's DoT. In this situation it would have been a no brainer to pick up Prototype Cylinder Ventilation.

 

So, IGC = Shieldtech, HEGC = AP, CGC = PyroTech and you want to make sure you get the talents that improve those cylinders for the appropriate trees as well. I hope that sheds more light on the talent in question.

 

This, but HEGC is a bit underwhelming. Hopefully the improvements to the AP tree in 1.2 will help AP feel more alive.

[Wallach]

This, but HEGC is a bit underwhelming. Hopefully the improvements to the AP tree in 1.2 will help AP feel more alive.

 

I don't think HEGC is underwhelming at all. I think the tree that is designed around it is, but that's not really to do with HEGC. HEGC is one of the reasons AP actually scales better with gear than Pyro does (and why AP will become the primary PvE spec relatively soon gear-wise unless more class changes happen).

[Theology]

HEGC sucks.

[Mapex]

This, but HEGC is a bit underwhelming. Hopefully the improvements to the AP tree in 1.2 will help AP feel more alive.

 

AP is pretty above average on live. If you are comparing it to PyroTech, then obviously it will look bad because PyroTech is broken when you have a good streak of PPA procs.

 

The only issue is the lack of slow for PvP, and that is being handled in two ways. Some other general quality of life adjustments are coming in terms of 1 extra stack of PFT via Immolate and a more consistent auto-crit Rail Shot which will help AP unload its crazy high damage Flame Thrower sooner but otherwise the playstyle and damage will be very similar to what it is on live.

 

That said, HEGC is our best cylinder by far; 8% damage boost to armor-bypassing damage types, 15% movement speed boost so we are consistently outrunning everyone, and 8 Heat vent/6 seconds that allows us to forgo Rapid Shots for more powerful Flame Burst spam instead. If it gets improved at all it will be broken beyond belief.

[Agooz]

AP is pretty above average on live. If you are comparing it to PyroTech, then obviously it will look bad because PyroTech is broken when you have a good streak of PPA procs.

 

 

It's information like this that shows the level of class experience among PTs. AP is NOT above average (damage wise) compared to other dps ACs. Pyrotech is currently way ahead of AP (damage wise), and will continue to be ahead of AP post 1.2. This is not ONLY what people who have experience with the class see, but it is a class balance fact. AP, because of the extra mobility, and "enchanced" utility of some of the PT abilities, can NEVER be given better, or even the same, damage output of Pyro.

 

That nonsense about Pyro being ONLY ahead when they get a lucky streak of procs is laughable. If that was the case, then Pyros would only shine about 10% of the time over APs. But the fact that out of 10 encounters, a Pyro will outshine an AP in every single fight, proves that it has nothing to do with the lucky procs, but the overall damage output of the tree.

[Hizoka]

It's information like this that shows the level of class experience among PTs. AP is NOT above average (damage wise) compared to other dps ACs. Pyrotech is currently way ahead of AP (damage wise), and will continue to be ahead of AP post 1.2. This is not ONLY what people who have experience with the class see, but it is a class balance fact. AP, because of the extra mobility, and "enchanced" utility of some of the PT abilities, can NEVER be given better, or even the same, damage output of Pyro.

 

That nonsense about Pyro being ONLY ahead when they get a lucky streak of procs is laughable. If that was the case, then Pyros would only shine about 10% of the time over APs. But the fact that out of 10 encounters, a Pyro will outshine an AP in every single fight, proves that it has nothing to do with the lucky procs, but the overall damage output of the tree.

 

you are simply showing how wrong you are.

[TheOpf]

you are simply showing how wrong you are.

 

On this one I have to agree with Hizoka. It's only really bad in pvp due to the non-slow issue. It's completely fine damage wise if played correctly in PVE. It's got a really long build up to it's biggest attack, but there is an entire thread looking at ways to get around this.

 

Personally I have more threat issues with AP than with Pyro. PFT, Immolate, RP hits for some major damage, and without having to Rail shot between attacks AP can build up some serious threat issues.

 

Pyro is ahead currently on live, but it's not by as much as everyone thinks. The main problem is that all of the really good non-abusive Players are playing Pyro because it's much easier to get more out of Pyro than to get it out of AP.

 

In PVP, Pyro is leaps and bounds ahead of AP in terms of burst. Mainly because AP's biggest burst is easily interrupted and can be ran away from. THat is being fixed in 1.2 and should bring AP closer.

[Hizoka]

On this one I have to agree with Hizoka. It's only really bad in pvp due to the non-slow issue. It's completely fine damage wise if played correctly in PVE. It's got a really long build up to it's biggest attack, but there is an entire thread looking at ways to get around this.

 

Personally I have more threat issues with AP than with Pyro. PFT, Immolate, RP hits for some major damage, and without having to Rail shot between attacks AP can build up some serious threat issues.

 

Pyro is ahead currently on live, but it's not by as much as everyone thinks. The main problem is that all of the really good non-abusive Players are playing Pyro because it's much easier to get more out of Pyro than to get it out of AP.

 

In PVP, Pyro is leaps and bounds ahead of AP in terms of burst. Mainly because AP's biggest burst is easily interrupted and can be ran away from. THat is being fixed in 1.2 and should bring AP closer.

the other issue is people in games now are lazy and overall bad. Pyro is leaps and bounds easier to play, and becomes of wow people go for the easy things to play because they lack the skill needed to play the things that need some skill to play correctly.

 

 

Just like it was said in the long post about AP is AP functions just fine, you simply have to be a better player to make it work then you do pyro. Overall players now are not even a fraction of as good as they were before and at the start of WoW, so people will take easy long before they will learn how to be good.

[Mapex]

On this one I have to agree with Hizoka. It's only really bad in pvp due to the non-slow issue. It's completely fine damage wise if played correctly in PVE. It's got a really long build up to it's biggest attack, but there is an entire thread looking at ways to get around this.

 

Personally I have more threat issues with AP than with Pyro. PFT, Immolate, RP hits for some major damage, and without having to Rail shot between attacks AP can build up some serious threat issues.

 

Pyro is ahead currently on live, but it's not by as much as everyone thinks. The main problem is that all of the really good non-abusive Players are playing Pyro because it's much easier to get more out of Pyro than to get it out of AP.

 

In PVP, Pyro is leaps and bounds ahead of AP in terms of burst. Mainly because AP's biggest burst is easily interrupted and can be ran away from. THat is being fixed in 1.2 and should bring AP closer.

 

I pull quite a bit more aggro as AP than PyroTech as well, and the reason is actually very straightforward: AP by design is more focused on burst/front-loaded damage of the two.

 

If you look at the upper tier talents in PyroTech, everything is focused on improving the damage of attacks that split into smaller, multiple ticks over a duration (Rapid Shots, Unload, CGC, IM). However, like the other DoT-oriented trees in the game (Lethality/DF, Madness/Balance, Watchman/Annihilation, Vigilance/Vengeance), there is a source of burst in Rail Shot and TD (both of which are affected by 30% crit damage boost), which can be controlled and frontloaded in PvP or dished as part of a priority rotation in PvE.

 

The reason PyroTech's damage and killing power is higher than that of AP is because Rail Shot is a very hard hitting attack and gets constantly refreshed via PPA. No other cooldown refreshed ability in the game hits this hard AND has no internal cooldown. The changes in 1.2 seek to address this behavior because it is unintended; the spec focuses on DoTs with some burst sprinkled in, not burst damage with DoTs for show (that's what AP is for). This means a DPS loss and a playstyle change, yes, but the effect is to equalize Powertech PyroTech to the level of AP and Mercenary PyroTech.

 

For PyroTech to be effectively played post-1.2, you will need to weave in abilities such as Unload and IM and use Flame Burst less as a bread and butter damage ability and more for emergency kiting/DoT replenishment purposes. The new emphasis on Unload and IM (and Rapid Shots) will greatly aid with Heat management, further differentiate the playstyle from AP, and require the player to be significantly more involved to maximize the use of this spec.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Mapex

[TheOpf]

It's too bad Mapex you aren't on my server. I would love to roll out with you and see how someone else plays. There aren't many good PT's on my server. There might be one or two.

[Assaultrooper]

I dunno :\ Damage PvP atleast wise AP definately feels really underpowered when compared to what a deception assassin, a Marauder, or a Rage Jugg can do.... Granted, there has been REALLY few times when I have been able to pull out a full FT which will hopefully change come 1.2 (The Changes are in the PTS and not in the Notes so possibly the uninterruptable FT might never happen)

 

But Yea u gotta choose either Deep AP, or Deep Pyro right now going half way in both will give you nothing you wouldn't have other wise with Carolina Parakeet.

[TheOpf]

I dunno :\ Damage PvP atleast wise AP definately feels really underpowered when compared to what a deception assassin, a Marauder, or a Rage Jugg can do.... Granted, there has been REALLY few times when I have been able to pull out a full FT which will hopefully change come 1.2 (The Changes are in the PTS and not in the Notes so possibly the uninterruptable FT might never happen)

 

But Yea u gotta choose either Deep AP, or Deep Pyro right now going half way in both will give you nothing you wouldn't have other wise with Carolina Parakeet.

 

It is in the notes under the BH tree here it is word for word

 

Prototype Flame Thrower now is granted a stack when Immolate is used. In addition, stacks make Flame Thrower immune to interrupt and at 5 stacks Flame Thrower will now slow the movement speed of targets by 70%. *UPDATED 3/23*

 

It's on the 2nd page of http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=363056

[Assaultrooper]

It is in the notes under the BH tree here it is word for word

 

Prototype Flame Thrower now is granted a stack when Immolate is used. In addition, stacks make Flame Thrower immune to interrupt and at 5 stacks Flame Thrower will now slow the movement speed of targets by 70%. *UPDATED 3/23*

 

It's on the 2nd page of http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=363056

 

THANKS I hadn't seen that !!!! You made my day I can sleep easy tonight ^^

[Mapex]

I dunno :\ Damage PvP atleast wise AP definately feels really underpowered when compared to what a deception assassin, a Marauder, or a Rage Jugg can do.... Granted, there has been REALLY few times when I have been able to pull out a full FT which will hopefully change come 1.2 (The Changes are in the PTS and not in the Notes so possibly the uninterruptable FT might never happen)

 

But Yea u gotta choose either Deep AP, or Deep Pyro right now going half way in both will give you nothing you wouldn't have other wise with Carolina Parakeet.

 

The Flame Burst spam is what kills it. A Rage/Focus spec can stack up its Smash/Sweep with a single GCD and waiting 4 seconds (and Zealous Leap/Obliterate in the meanwhile) whereas an AP requires a minimum of 5 GCDs (and tons of Heat) to stack up their FT.

 

The Immolate will help a great deal in condensing the spam rotation a bit, but even then it may not be enough; you still have 4 FBs to spam in order to get the stacked up Flame Thrower of destruction.

 

The question is whether it is better to focus solely on Flamer attacks and stack up FT as fast as possible so you can use it as many times as you can (this will destroy your Heat, however) or play the role as intended by the talents and throw in your RP, RB, and Rail Shot to soften the target up before murdering them with one FT at the end. Often, because we are a melee spec with weak survivability that's hardly worth mentioning, you will be dead before being able to unload that FT or you will get knocked away/stunned, interrupting that channel you worked so hard to build, meaning the former avenue of ignoring RP/RB/RS entirely may make the most sense.

 

1.2 can't come soon enough. I can't wait to experiment with the changes.

[TheOpf]

The Flame Burst spam is what kills it. A Rage/Focus spec can stack up its Smash/Sweep with a single GCD and waiting 4 seconds (and Zealous Leap/Obliterate in the meanwhile) whereas an AP requires a minimum of 5 GCDs (and tons of Heat) to stack up their FT.

 

The Immolate will help a great deal in condensing the spam rotation a bit, but even then it may not be enough; you still have 4 FBs to spam in order to get the stacked up Flame Thrower of destruction.

 

The question is whether it is better to focus solely on Flamer attacks and stack up FT as fast as possible so you can use it as many times as you can (this will destroy your Heat, however) or play the role as intended by the talents and throw in your RP, RB, and Rail Shot to soften the target up before murdering them with one FT at the end. Often, because we are a melee spec with weak survivability that's hardly worth mentioning, you will be dead before being able to unload that FT or you will get knocked away/stunned, interrupting that channel you worked so hard to build, meaning the former avenue of ignoring RP/RB/RS entirely may make the most sense.

 

1.2 can't come soon enough. I can't wait to experiment with the changes.

 

In a non-RS/RB build/rotation, the Free Rocket Punch is still used mid FB spam. So Immolate, FBx3, RP, FBx2, PFT. I tried hitting RP immediately after Imm, but you get more energy conservation by using it later in the rotation. RP is still one of our strongest hits, and the Free RP is definitely worth using.

 

Or you can use the RP immediately following Immolate, The idea is solely scrapping RB and RS. Scrapping the free RP would lead to overheating and then rapid shot spamming.

Edited April 10, 2012 by TheOpf

[Mapex]

In a non-RS/RB build/rotation, the Free Rocket Punch is still used mid FB spam. So Immolate, FBx3, RP, FBx2, PFT. I tried hitting RP immediately after Imm, but you get more energy conservation by using it later in the rotation. RP is still one of our strongest hits, and the Free RP is definitely worth using.

 

Or you can use the RP immediately following Immolate, The idea is solely scrapping RB and RS. Scrapping the free RP would lead to overheating and then rapid shot spamming.

 

Just to reiterate: you never want to use RP right after Immolate. Immolate's Heat cost is null by the time the GCD is over, and since that is your opening attack (after ED) you will most likely be at 0 Heat. A Heat-free RP doesn't do anything if you are already at 0 Heat; it's better to use RB, or FB in a non-RB/RS build, before you consume the Flame Barrage buff.

 

Now that it's Tuesday I'll respec back to the non-RB build I was playing around with before but take it more seriously; last time I played it was when DoTs prevented node caps, so not having RB was a huge disadvantage. Because enemies smarten up depending on the time of day, getting a full stacked FT channel to go off without a hitch can be frustrating. I'd rather have more opportunities to unleash it so even if one messes up I can quickly get back on my feet for a second in the same fight.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Mapex

[TheOpf]

Just to reiterate: you never want to use RP right after Immolate. Immolate's Heat cost is null by the time the GCD is over, and since that is your opening attack (after ED) you will most likely be at 0 Heat. A Heat-free RP doesn't do anything if you are already at 0 Heat; it's better to use RB, or FB in a non-RB/RS build, before you consume the Flame Barrage buff.

 

 

You are correct, bah, that explains my overheating issues by mid 2nd rotation. I will revamp my rotation and see how it works.