why be a pure DPS when DPS tanks do more damage

[kweassa]

if a tank pt gets focused, unless he jet charges out of there he is going down in seconds. energy shield is just as effective as sorc bubble without guard or heals on the pt. only time energy shield is worth a darn is if you have guard, taunt, and healing on you. other than that, if you pop it at say....50% hp you will only mitigate about 2k damage from the CD.

 

Any tank, or any class distinction for that matter, is fodder when focused in this game, and therefore, what happens to a tank when it is 'focused' is clearly a non-issue.

 

 

the difference in survivability between my pyro pt and my CP pt is marginal at best except for jet charge, which has saved my bacon tons of times.

 

You do realize the paradox in the above statement, right?

 

ie.) "tons of times" vs "marginal"

 

 

in fact, a sorc has a better chance of surviving a focus train by himself than a pt. sorcs escape getting pulled into 30+ players in ilum all the time, pts have to sit there and take it if they are not tank or tank/dps hybrid as pts have zero escape tools baseline.

 

Again, cearly a 'focus train' is not the standard which you judge a tank by in SWTOR. Stop associating it with the tanks of other games which have super duper CDs or toggles which mitigate tons of damage by itself.

 

SWTOR tanks rely on active defense, rather than such passive defense.

 

Simply put, in other games, when you play a tank they add a 10inch thick layer of steel armor around you, which retains its defensive power whether you are dumb or smart. The difference in defensive capability can range from something like 0% resistances/mitigation for DPS classes, vs something like 200~250% mitigation for tanks. In those games the difference in offensive capabilities also reach similar disparities between classes.

 

In SWTOR, if you are a tank, they give you a plain, good ol' kite shield. Sure. its good defense as opposed to those who have none, but that alone isn't going to be enough to perform like the tanks in other games. You have to learn to use the shield you have been given.

 

ie) Defensive builds wield two instant cast stuns as opposed to only one for other classes. You can either use this as your attack tool, or, you can use it to stun both enemies attacking yourself, or your friend, to buy some time to escape.

 

Defensive specs have defense/shield ratings around 30%/25% chance for defensive action such as parry or defelct. This chance is enough to make a noticeable difference in a 1vs1 situation, effective against enemy "white" damage attacks which usually constitute the majority of medium grade attacks (Zealous leap and such..) or energy/focus builders.

 

However, that chance alone will mean squat when you have multiple attacks incoming, and therefore a tank just cannot "pick a spot, stand steadfast, start bashing" like in other games.

[DarkDruidSS]

17 pages later and the OP hasn't posted again.... successful troll is successful.

 

On a related note. DPS tanks doing DPS.. imagine that. That aren't bursting anything down... they do steady, constant damage. True DPS classes like Sniper and Marauder do have enough burst or at least higher sustained damage to actually make a kill in a timely matter. Yea a tankassin might kill you, but it will be a long fight. PvP is all about burst. All it takes is 1 healer and a DPS tank is boned... can't kill anything.

[unclekaula]

Well you understand that a rage spec dps tank or marauder can aoe a smash crit (shockwave ticks) - anywhere between 5k-7.5k

 

so 7.5k x 5 players (aoe smash) = 37.5k every minute (i think thats the cd) for 14 minutes = 14 x 37.5 = 525k - only aoe dmg .. now do you understand

 

I'm rage tank spec (soresu) and have 520 power without adrenals/relics and 106 cm. I cant hit for anything above 6.3k with a wz adrenal + relic. So these 7.5k hit smashes, what are they against? What are the specs of the person doing 7.5k in soresu?

[kantnerfme]

I'm obviously playing my tank wrong cuz on a good day, with a personal healer and never dying, I can pump out MAYBE 200k damage, and still be near the bottom of the charts in damage as compared to sentinels or troopers. In fact I get out dps'd by most pure dps unless they are brand new to 50. I'm sure you can lend some helpful tips. Cuz, I know unlike most other tanks on my sever, I actually protect my healers. I love seeing a geared tank in a WZ with 15k damage absorbed and 200k damage, while I sit between 100k and 200k damage absorbed and 100-150k damage. Taunt is your best friend as a tank btw.

 

A tank does more dmg than a dps "In a single target"

this is why you deal 200k dmg and i deal 400k as a sage.

i hit multi targets but on a single target i can do 3k dmg max (if i et lucky that target has low expertise).

I use BM gear and i take 5k dmg from tanks dps.

 

nevertheless in every game i'm sure you had play, tanks are meant to harass the enemy and protect allies, not to dominate 1 vs 1.

[kantnerfme]

I'm rage tank spec (soresu) and have 520 power without adrenals/relics and 106 cm. I cant hit for anything above 6.3k with a wz adrenal + relic. So these 7.5k hit smashes, what are they against? What are the specs of the person doing 7.5k in soresu?

 

Lawlz ,you do 5-7k dmg

my sage with BM and dps specs can't deal more than 3k.

tell me now who is the dps? xD

[unclekaula]

Lawlz ,you do 5-7k dmg

my sage with BM and dps specs can't deal more than 3k.

tell me now who is the dps? xD

 

You because I'm guarding/objectives as a rage tank. The only way I'd out dps a dps sage was if they didnt know what they were doing or if I was focusing squishies.

[KhealThar]

Lawlz ,you do 5-7k dmg

my sage with BM and dps specs can't deal more than 3k.

tell me now who is the dps? xD

 

He hits for 5-7k with adrenals, 3-4k without every 20 or so seconds. Sorcerer's have sustained damage and rage doesn't. You'll end up doing more overall damage unless he's hitting a lot of grouped targets and btw, you're both DPS spec'd.

[aeterno]

Why be a pure DPS when DPS tanks do more damage?

 

Cos pure DPS classes have better survivability than tanks silly.

Edited April 10, 2012 by aeterno

[ContrailNZ]

17 pages later and the OP hasn't posted again.... successful troll is successful.

 

On a related note. DPS tanks doing DPS.. imagine that. That aren't bursting anything down... they do steady, constant damage. True DPS classes like Sniper and Marauder do have enough burst or at least higher sustained damage to actually make a kill in a timely matter. Yea a tankassin might kill you, but it will be a long fight. PvP is all about burst. All it takes is 1 healer and a DPS tank is boned... can't kill anything.

 

ummmm clearly you are playing a diff game.

 

Pyrotech PT has, I would say the most consistent and best burst in the game, especially with timing Thermal explosion with railshot hitting the target.

 

Rage burst is also nice, but PT still wins.

 

 

Marauder has more steady DPS, less burst but more def cooldowns then any tank.

 

Shadow tanks are the only tanks that are less bursty and more steady dps.

The issue is that their DPS in tank spec is far too high.

Edited April 10, 2012 by ContrailNZ

[Koolmea]

First of all the OP doesnt even have a pic to show us some evidence.

Second of all, all the nerfing threads pics shown are ALWAYS from Voidstar where the other team has tops 10 kills/player.

Isnt this forum full of this kind of nerf this nerf that, look at this pic, omaiga I killed 80 and their best player killed 12 (nerf me).

I have a War Hero Assassin and only once in my life I've gotten 400k dmg when the enemy team had 5 healers....

So ppl, stop leaning your ear towards every post about nerfing/showing Voidstar pics usually...of unbalanced teams.

[DarkDruidSS]

ummmm clearly you are playing a diff game.

 

Pyrotech PT has, I would say the most consistent and best burst in the game, especially with timing Thermal explosion with railshot hitting the target.

 

Rage burst is also nice, but PT still wins.

 

 

Marauder has more steady DPS, less burst but more def cooldowns then any tank.

 

Shadow tanks are the only tanks that are less bursty and more steady dps.

The issue is that their DPS in tank spec is far too high.

 

Clearly you don't know what a tank is. Pyrotech is not a tank. It's a DPS spec for PTs. PT, Jugg and Sin are not inherently tanks unless specced for tanking. So a DPS spec doing DPS... OMGWUT?

 

Rage is also a DPS spec and not a tank spec. The respective tank specs for PT and Jugg are Shieldtech and Immortal. So you just named 2 builds that are NOT tank spec.... For the record I have a level 40 PT and you don't do serious damage in Shieldtech spec... It's almost like Darkness for Sins except Sins have self heals which makes their spec superior.

 

Once again... DPS tanks are what the thread is specifically talking about. A DPS Tank is a tank class in tank spec wearing DPS gear for the extra damage. It's not about DPS specs in a class that can tank.

 

They are steady consistant damage. Sins appear to do more damage because they can self heal allowing them to survive longer to do the damage. I know from a PT/Sin point of view the classses do similar damage in tank spec. The other major difference is a lot of tankassin damage is force damage where a PT has a lot of weapon damage which is mitigated more. No DPS tank is a burst class.

Edited April 10, 2012 by DarkDruidSS

[AngryBuddhist]

You guys are still mostly missing the OP's point.

 

Why be a pure DPS in PVP when a hybrid class that is DPS/TANK does more damage.

 

The answer is that there is no point. When a hybrid class does better than the pure class, it make no sense to play the pure class.

 

This is NOT a comparison of DPS to a Tank with a DPS build. This is about the base level class being a pure or a hybrid.

 

In most games that use hybrids, and throughout game history, a hybrid class was less effective in each of the class types it was derived from.

 

So a TANK/DPS hybrid should be less DPS than a pure DPS and less 'tank' than a pure tank class.

 

This is NOT the case in SWTOR. The hybrids are a better choice for solo PVP play.

[AngryBuddhist]

Once again... DPS tanks are what the thread is specifically talking about. A DPS Tank is a tank class in tank spec wearing DPS gear for the extra damage. It's not about DPS specs in a class that can tank.

 

 

Um ... no he is talking about the base class not the builds. A Shadow is a hybrid. A gunslinger is a pure class.

 

Go look at the class definitions on this web site so you see what he is talking about. It isn't a pure tank with a DPS build, it is a hybrid class vs. pure class issue.

[Darth_Philar]

This is NOT the case in SWTOR. The hybrids are a better choice for solo PVP play.

 

There is no such thing as "solo PvP play" in SWTOR.

 

There is team-based objective warzones.

 

Also, the entire premise of this thread is based on the fallacy that the Damage Done column means anything.

 

It does not.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Darth_Philar

[Cowflab]

Um ... no he is talking about the base class not the builds. A Shadow is a hybrid. A gunslinger is a pure class.

 

Go look at the class definitions on this web site so you see what he is talking about. It isn't a pure tank with a DPS build, it is a hybrid class vs. pure class issue.

 

Uh... /facedesk

 

You cant compare a spec(gunslinger) to an entire AC(shadow). If you're going that route, you compare scoundrel vs. Shadow. Shadow has a tank spec, scoundrels have a heal spec. That's the tradeoff. Deception=gunslinger as far as "pure specs" are concerned.

 

See the difference?

Edited April 10, 2012 by Cowflab

[AidenPryde]

A tank in dps gear who doesn't die and has a pocket healer can definitely hit 500k+ if he focuses mostly on doing damage.

 

He won't do nearly the kind of damage that a Sentinel or Pyrotech or Operative can do in a small window of time (ie: In 30 seconds, any DPS class will do FAR, FAR more damage than any tank class in dps gear).

 

The OP doesn't seem to understand that doing smaller amounts of damage for a long period of time is the same thing as doing large amounts of damage for short periods of time when you're looking at the scoreboard.

 

In reality, I'd much rather take the guy who can actually burst a healer down and only do 17k damage than the guy who will do 200k damage to a healer and never actually kill them.

 

You've obviously never played with a good Vengeance Juggernaut.

 

I don't see 400-500k damage on my server anymore. From ANYBODY. Not since the surge nerf and the fact that just about everyone on my server is in full BM gear.

 

Burst isn't everything either.

 

Nice consistent damage against a DPS class or healer (which Vengeance can kill - except Operative/Smuggler healers that have big heals that they can use while moving) is sometimes more desirable. Especially since the Juggernaut is extremely good at isolating a single target and 1v1ing him.

 

The Juggernaut is the second best 1v1 class in the game (after tankassins, which as everyone knows are OP as hell). But not even the tankassin can isolate a single target and burn his face off.

Edited April 10, 2012 by AidenPryde

[DarkDruidSS]

Um ... no he is talking about the base class not the builds. A Shadow is a hybrid. A gunslinger is a pure class.

 

Go look at the class definitions on this web site so you see what he is talking about. It isn't a pure tank with a DPS build, it is a hybrid class vs. pure class issue.

 

Here is an interesting challenge. How about you name a terrible DPS class... pure or not. Each class has at least 1 viable DPS build and I can find you respective youtube clips of someone in that class topping charts. It's the player and not the class.

 

Snipers do insane burst from range. They have great area denial for defending nodes from range and they can do the leth/engie hybrid for nice AoE and kills as long as people are too stupid to dispel... which a lot of people are. They also have some killer CC.

 

Marauders have high sustained damage and amazing defensive CDs. They can be bursty in carnage or rage spec. Marauders are one of the most feared opponents on the battle field by most people.

[Kerishnak]

I play often in Vigilance spec (dps) and the tank spec (i forget the name) on my Jedi Knight Guardian. In general, I always have higher DPS when speced Vigilance. However i stay alive much longer while tank speced.... seems everything is in order here.

 

I disagree with you entirely

[Thoop]

shadow tank spec has good damage

vangaurd tank spec has good damage

guardian tank spec has laughably bad damage

[Venrale]

DPS tanks to as much or more damage in WZ then pure dps. The main reason is that they still have several tank abilities and some natural defense and can sill out dps a dps class. this might not be much but a well played dps tank is better in so many ways to pure. Why be a pure dps.

 

 

All you trolls that want to explain this as ae vr single target and all kinds of other bs I run with dps tanks that hit 500k damage regularly.

 

You obviously dont know the deffinition of DPS so let me spell it out for you D=Damage, P-Per and S = Second put that all together and you get Damage Per Second.

 

The damage at the end of the WZ is not DPS it is your total dmg output in fact this game does not have a way of guaging your DPS considering you have no real way of knowing how long that person was acctually fighting or waiting behind a door.. the only way to get a vauge and it is a VERY vauge idea of dps would be to look at the players total dmg/highest dmg and amount of deaths, just as an example:

 

2 players 1 tank 1 dps,

the tank puts up 500k dmg has a highest hit of about 3k and has 2 deaths

the dps puts up 500k dmg has a highest hit of 6k and has 10 deaths

 

the dps class has a higher dps because he was in the fight for a shorter amount of time and still did as much dmg, even if the dps class did only 400k dmg he still has higher dps due to the amount of time he was acctually able to do dmg vrs the amount of time the tank could do dmg. also all those tanks that are hitting 500k matches are specd for full dps ussually.

[Darth_Philar]

You obviously dont know the deffinition of DPS so let me spell it out for you D=Damage, P-Per and S = Second put that all together and you get Damage Per Second.

 

The damage at the end of the WZ is not DPS it is your total dmg output in fact this game does not have a way of guaging your DPS considering you have no real way of knowing how long that person was acctually fighting or waiting behind a door.. the only way to get a vauge and it is a VERY vauge idea of dps would be to look at the players total dmg/highest dmg and amount of deaths, just as an example:

 

2 players 1 tank 1 dps,

the tank puts up 500k dmg has a highest hit of about 3k and has 2 deaths

the dps puts up 500k dmg has a highest hit of 6k and has 10 deaths

 

the dps class has a higher dps because he was in the fight for a shorter amount of time and still did as much dmg, even if the dps class did only 400k dmg he still has higher dps due to the amount of time he was acctually able to do dmg vrs the amount of time the tank could do dmg. also all those tanks that are hitting 500k matches are specd for full dps ussually.

 

The actual definition and thorough explanation of what DPS really means has been provided several times (with real world analogies) and the "Tanks do more damage" people in this thread still believe that DPS = Damage Done / Match Length

 

In this thread, you will find that you are casting pearls before swine.

[Luochaz]

yea, the tanks with dps gear have a huge down side that every1 overlooks.. not only can they not kill a healer 1v1, they can't even lock them down.. the healer can continue to heal himself & his allies no prob.. where a mara/op can atleast lock the healer down and usually kill them

[Sziroten]

It's funny how people can't grasp that.. someone doing 500k in 15mins does less dps than someone doing 500k in 15mins while spending 5mins behind the locked spawnscreen.

[EnochThompson]

yea, the tanks with dps gear have a huge down side that every1 overlooks.. not only can they not kill a healer 1v1, they can't even lock them down.. the healer can continue to heal himself & his allies no prob.. where a mara/op can atleast lock the healer down and usually kill them

 

Actually a tankassin can lock down a healer. a good tanksin can do a crazy shock rotation that will bring a healer down to half in seconds after knocking them down...

 

Marau is top dog because they can charge, crazy disrupts and -20% healing debuff.

 

Operatives can be easily cc'd and also they have no skill to close distance betweem them and the healer once cc'd.

 

No clue on how jugs work dont have one.

[Hethroin]

I thought my BM hybrid sin did good damage, till I got my assault Vanguard into centurion 4pc.

 

Full DPS specs out damage tanks in DPS gear, they out damage tank hybrids in DPS gear, and they out damage heal-dps hybrids in DPS gear.

 

WZ scoreboards are not accurate indicators of damage capacity. They are situational and do indicate anything.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Hethroin