why be a pure DPS when DPS tanks do more damage

[AngryBuddhist]

The only way a pure dps is out dps'd by a tank is when they either 1) a bad player, or 2) able to spam AoEs in very specific scenarios that are irrelevant to overall game balance. Why are people still clinging to this "this shadow had the most overall damage done in a turtle voidstar, nerf plox" mentality? It's illogical.

 

 

 

This is not tank vs DPS. This is about DPS vs TANK/DPS hybrids.

 

AOE has ZERO to do with the discussion. This is about balance between those two class types. Either grasp the argument or don't post.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Notannos
rude

[RJMazz]

Why the hell people pay attention to the scoreboard?

 

Only thing important in the scoreboard to me is objective points and total healing.

[nschlan]

My last try to get you to understand the discussion.

WHY BE PURE DPS WHEN A TANK/DPS HYBRID ALWAYS DOES MORE DAMAGE IN A WZ.

 

.

 

Because overall damage means nothing. A hybrid simply CANNOT kill things as fast a a pure DPS spec/class, thus making it less valuable from a damage perspective. Last try to get you to understand: overall damage means NOTHING if you can't kill people in the process. And saying AoE doesn't matter is just stupid. AoE is damage is it not? AoE is a big contributor to one's overall damage. A tank won't break more than 150k damage unless they spam AoEs.

Edited April 6, 2012 by nschlan

[Cowflab]

 

This is not tank vs DPS. This is about DPS vs TANK/DPS hybrids.

 

AOE has ZERO to do with the discussion. This is about balance between those two class types. Either grasp the argument or don't post.

 

AoE has A LOT to do with the end game scoreboard in a WZ. As a matter of fact, any time a tank spec score over 150k in a WZ, AoE played a very large part in that.If you're talking about PvE, then i know you're absolutely clueless.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Notannos
rude

[Cowflab]

Because overall damage means nothing. A hybrid simply CANNOT kill things as fast a a pure DPS spec/class, thus making it less valuable from a damage perspective. Last try to get you to understand: overall damage means NOTHING if you can't kill people in the process.

 

This!

 

I'm willing to bet that no single tank can out DPS(damage per second, or running damage while on target) a pure damage spec. The op is speaking of overall damage on the WZ scoreboard, which is not a solid indicator of actual dps(not that it matters anyway, as we currently have no method to parse damage or the fact that there is no set "on target" time in a PvP encounter).

Edited April 6, 2012 by Sireene
retarded- PM'd

[DirtyDiggler]

this is why people that called for soc DPS nerf were stupid....

 

Soc DPS was never great, they did lame AOE damage that impressed people like the OP but anyone who knows anything about PVP knows socs were easy kills.

 

The only thing they were was annoying cuz of all the CC and escape abilities and the fact so many were playing them that they were more annoying then anything else.

[nschlan]

this is why people that called for soc DPS nerf were stupid....

 

Soc DPS was never great, they did lame AOE damage that impressed people like the OP but anyone who knows anything about PVP knows socs were easy kills.

 

The only thing they were was annoying cuz of all the CC and escape abilities and the fact so many were playing them that they were more annoying then anything else.

 

Exactly. Class balance is pretty good as it is. The only things that really need any tweaking are Scoundrel/Op healers and Gunslinger/Sniper, but even then they can be amazing in the right hands.

[AngryBuddhist]

This!

 

I'm willing to bet that no single tank can out DPS(damage per second, or running damage while on target) a pure damage spec. The op is speaking of overall damage on the WZ scoreboard, which is not a solid indicator of actual dps(not that it matters anyway, as we currently have no method to parse damage or the fact that there is no set "on target" time in a PvP encounter).

 

This is about tank/dps hybrids. Do you know what that means? Do you know which classes those are?

Edited April 6, 2012 by Sireene
reply to edited quote

[AngryBuddhist]

this is why people that called for soc DPS nerf were stupid....

 

Soc DPS was never great, they did lame AOE damage that impressed people like the OP but anyone who knows anything about PVP knows socs were easy kills.

 

The only thing they were was annoying cuz of all the CC and escape abilities and the fact so many were playing them that they were more annoying then anything else.

 

No one is calling out for a nerf.

 

The OP simply stated that there is no reason to play a pure DPS class when a tank/DPS hybrid class ALWAYS will outdamage you. AND YES THAT MEANS DPS ALSO!!!!

 

A WZ is a fixed number of seconds. If you die you don't do DPS.

 

The clouding argument od 'DPS only applies when you are fighting' is irrelevant. That is simply an argument about the definition of the term. HAS ZERO TO DO WITH WHAT THE OP IS SAYING.

[Cowflab]

what part of the OP's statement do you fail to understand?

 

Are you like mentally diminished? Can you follow a topic for even 30 seconds?

 

THIS IS NOT ABOUT TANK SPECS !!!!!!!!!

 

THIS IS ABOUT TANK/DPS hybrid specs!!!!!!!

 

Now go back to your kindergarten remedial reading class.

 

There is what? 1 left in the game and is soon to be nerfed? The wheels are in motion to change that already. Wait for the patch to come out in a week or 2.

 

Now, if you're calling a 31/0/10 dps geared Assassin a hybrid, I stand by my statement. A tank in DPS gear is a tank in dps gear.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Notannos
rude

[Notannos]

Hey everyone,

 

We recently had to remove several posts from this thread due to posts that did not contribute constructive discussion. A reminder that regardless of the topic, it is part of our Rules of Conduct to:

• 
  
• Never insult another member of the community.
  
• Respect other community members, whether they agree with you or not.
  
• Flag, don't fight. Use the "flag" feature to report posts to our Community Team if you see someone breaking the rules – don't respond to them!
  
• Make constructive, on-topic posts that add to the discussion.
  

Thank you for understanding.

[Cowflab]

Are you really this dense? how many time do you have to have it explained to you?

 

I give up. you are simply to uneducated to grasp this discussion.

 

Go read the class definitions on this web site before you speak nonsense again.

 

Still insulting me because you don't have a leg to stand on, huh? I'll go ahead and take some of the guess work out for you with ACTUAL EVIDENCE in the shadow/assassin AC.

 

2/31/8 PvE Infiltration http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/4135/...rationdumm.png 1357 dps

 

7/3/31 PVE Balance(without project, damage would increase if used) http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8216/adribalance2.png 1283.4 dps

 

7/3/31 PvE no project, with SS http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/8...ribalance3.png 1374 dps

 

31/0/10 tank build, dps gear http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/4323/kinetic.png 1099 dps

 

 

NOTE: Notice how much of the Tank specs damage is from AoE abilities...

 

About skill names in the parses:

 

- Crushed (Force) = Force Breach with Force Technique

- Crushed = Telekinetic Throw

- Dark Spike = Proc from Dark Energy Surge relic

 

So, now that I've provided you actual evidence with parses, where is this KC spec that out damages even it's own dps equivalent?

Edited April 6, 2012 by Cowflab

[Fozy]

Well you understand that a rage spec dps tank or marauder can aoe a smash crit (shockwave ticks) - anywhere between 5k-7.5k

 

so 7.5k x 5 players (aoe smash) = 37.5k every minute (i think thats the cd) for 14 minutes = 14 x 37.5 = 525k - only aoe dmg .. now do you understand

 

This is the most insane post i've read yet. the only way to hit that number, is vs a bunch of greenhorn noobs

[SweetNausea]

I think the scoreboard matters.

 

Well, that's unfortunate. I'm afraid it doesn't.

Edited April 6, 2012 by SweetNausea

[Varicite]

My last try to get you to understand the discussion.

 

WHY BE PURE DPS WHEN A TANK/DPS HYBRID ALWAYS DOES MORE DAMAGE IN A WZ.

 

The OP may have slightly mis-phrased it, but that is the point here.

 

All your clouding of the issue does not address the original argument. Has nothing to do with the time frames or getting dead.

 

Why should i roll as a pure DPs when a tank/dps hybrid will always out damage me?

 

Why would a raid EVER take a pure DPS over a tank/hybrid that brings more damage to the encounter?

 

Burst/Schmurst... you can't burst when your dead.

 

There is no clouding of the issue; we are trying to get you to understand a very simple point, that you seem to refuse to comprehend. That's fine, not everyone can understand the difference between meaningful damage and negligible damage.

 

But that doesn't mean that your fallacious judgment is correct, because it's not.

 

And look at that, parses that show that a tank in dps gear is nowhere close to an actual dps spec in dps. Just like everyone has been trying to tell you; imagine that.

 

ps) Thank you, Cowflab, for bringing actually relevant numbers to this discussion.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Varicite

[finansjapp]

There is no clouding of the issue; we are trying to get you to understand a very simple point, that you seem to refuse to comprehend. That's fine, not everyone can understand the difference between meaningful damage and negligible damage.

 

I really dont think you understand this. There is no negligible damage. Damage is damage. You assume that just because some damage take a bit longer time to get out, it will be negligible.

 

This is a very flawed assumption.

 

My hybrid tank will kill my dps every single time. Except if my dps is lucky. Even though he will do less damage per second against a training dummy. Which some use to calculate dps meters.

 

So let me ask you. Why is this since my tank do negligible damage?

 

I will answer this question for you though, because it is quite simple. The equation have two parameters:

 

1. Offensive and defensive equipment and skills

2. Health

 

There is no time in this equation.

 

My tank has very superior defensive skills than my dps. It has also more health. My dps have more offensive capabilities, but it is very much lower than my tank have defensive capabilities. As such the damage they will do to eachother is about the same. hence my tank will win. This you see in the game also more often than not. Given equal circumstances.

 

Now I do not say this should not be so. Dont take it like that.

 

Then we can go to the group argument. Here you will have a lot of different setups. You can assume you have healers in X numbers, or tanks in X numbers etc etc. In these different situations my hybrid tank or dps will perform very differently.

 

But this is assumptions. The opening poster had an argument that a tank should not do more damage than a dps in a warzone. This is a very valid argument, because it happens. You can disagree and say that is fine, but it is still a valid argument.

[Darth-Rammstein]

op you are dumb, for example a dps specd jugg up against a dps mara of equal skill will never be as good damage wise....there are countless threads on this topic because of how much better they look in 1.2 compared to the jugg.

[Viliphied]

I really dont think you understand this. There is no negligible damage. Damage is damage. You assume that just because some damage take a bit longer time to get out, it will be negligible.

 

This is a very flawed assumption.

 

My hybrid tank will kill my dps every single time. Except if my dps is lucky. Even though he will do less damage per second against a training dummy. Which some use to calculate dps meters.

 

So let me ask you. Why is this since my tank do negligible damage?

 

I will answer this question for you though, because it is quite simple. The equation have two parameters:

 

1. Offensive and defensive equipment and skills

2. Health

 

There is no time in this equation.

 

My tank has very superior defensive skills than my dps. It has also more health. My dps have more offensive capabilities, but it is very much lower than my tank have defensive capabilities. As such the damage they will do to eachother is about the same. hence my tank will win. This you see in the game also more often than not. Given equal circumstances.

 

Now I do not say this should not be so. Dont take it like that.

 

Then we can go to the group argument. Here you will have a lot of different setups. You can assume you have healers in X numbers, or tanks in X numbers etc etc. In these different situations my hybrid tank or dps will perform very differently.

 

But this is assumptions. The opening poster had an argument that a tank should not do more damage than a dps in a warzone. This is a very valid argument, because it happens. You can disagree and say that is fine, but it is still a valid argument.

 

Well, for the first 2/3 of your post in which you talk about 1v1, BW has stated that they cannot and will not balance around 1v1. So, yeah.

 

For the group argument, I have a 50 assassin tank, and a 50 scrapper scoundrel. My assassin tank will die way less in a WZ, and is good at things like protecting healers. My scoundrel can kill any non-tank non-guarded target before they can react. The scoundrel is leaps and bounds better at actually KILLING things, even with less uptime, because (from a healer's perspective) it's MUCH harder to heal through several 2-4k hits in a row than it is to heal 1 guy through 4 1k hits, and 4 others through 1 1k AE.

 

Even though the damage numbers are the same, the higher BURST is far more effective at actually damaging the enemy team. I really don't know why this is hard for you to understand. Maybe this will help: If I'm on my scoundrel healer, and a tank is AEing my team for 1.5k(ish) a pop, I can throw 1 hot on everyone, an EM every now and again, and UWM on whoever the tank's actually on. If a tank gets on someone who's at 25% health, I can pretty much keep them up indefinitely, because the tanks DPS won't be able to out damage my EM + SRM.

 

If a DPS gets on someone on my team, I have to A) Hope they already have SRM up on them, and B) Spam UM, eating all of my energy, and hope they can kite away before I go OOE.

[Cowflab]

I really dont think you understand this. There is no negligible damage. Damage is damage. You assume that just because some damage take a bit longer time to get out, it will be negligible.

 

This is a very flawed assumption.

 

My hybrid tank will kill my dps every single time. Except if my dps is lucky. Even though he will do less damage per second against a training dummy. Which some use to calculate dps meters.

 

So let me ask you. Why is this since my tank do negligible damage?

 

I will answer this question for you though, because it is quite simple. The equation have two parameters:

 

1. Offensive and defensive equipment and skills

2. Health

 

There is no time in this equation.

 

My tank has very superior defensive skills than my dps. It has also more health. My dps have more offensive capabilities, but it is very much lower than my tank have defensive capabilities. As such the damage they will do to eachother is about the same. hence my tank will win. This you see in the game also more often than not. Given equal circumstances.

 

Now I do not say this should not be so. Dont take it like that.

 

Then we can go to the group argument. Here you will have a lot of different setups. You can assume you have healers in X numbers, or tanks in X numbers etc etc. In these different situations my hybrid tank or dps will perform very differently.

 

But this is assumptions. The opening poster had an argument that a tank should not do more damage than a dps in a warzone. This is a very valid argument, because it happens. You can disagree and say that is fine, but it is still a valid argument.

 

It happens very rarely under very specific circumstances. It doesn't happen nearly enough to be concerned about. Please don't exaggerate.

 

I think the hardest part of this discussion for those that oppose tanks doing good damage is accepting the fact that someone else is simply better than you. With the multitude of threads like these arising lately, you would think every assassin in the game is walking around with full BM gear and a 31/31/31 spec, which most certainly isn't the case.

[Viliphied]

It happens very rarely under very specific circumstances. It doesn't happen nearly enough to be concerned about. Please don't exaggerate.

 

I think the hardest part of this discussion for those that oppose tanks doing good damage is accepting the fact that someone else is simply better than you. With the multitude of threads like these arising lately, you would think every assassin in the game is walking around with full BM gear and a 31/31/31 spec, which most certainly isn't the case.

 

Mine is.

[finansjapp]

Well, for the first 2/3 of your post in which you talk about 1v1, BW has stated that they cannot and will not balance around 1v1. So, yeah.

 

For the group argument, I have a 50 assassin tank, and a 50 scrapper scoundrel. My assassin tank will die way less in a WZ, and is good at things like protecting healers. My scoundrel can kill any non-tank non-guarded target before they can react. The scoundrel is leaps and bounds better at actually KILLING things, even with less uptime, because (from a healer's perspective) it's MUCH harder to heal through several 2-4k hits in a row than it is to heal 1 guy through 4 1k hits, and 4 others through 1 1k AE.

 

Even though the damage numbers are the same, the higher BURST is far more effective at actually damaging the enemy team. I really don't know why this is hard for you to understand. Maybe this will help: If I'm on my scoundrel healer, and a tank is AEing my team for 1.5k(ish) a pop, I can throw 1 hot on everyone, an EM every now and again, and UWM on whoever the tank's actually on. If a tank gets on someone who's at 25% health, I can pretty much keep them up indefinitely, because the tanks DPS won't be able to out damage my EM + SRM.

 

If a DPS gets on someone on my team, I have to A) Hope they already have SRM up on them, and B) Spam UM, eating all of my energy, and hope they can kite away before I go OOE.

 

I never talked about balance. I challenged the argument that a tank dont do important damage. That is a flawed argument which has no root in reality. On contrary tanks do a lot of VERY important damage. They can kill dps just as fast as a dps can kill them.

 

You say your operator can kill things much faster. In some circumstance yes it can. In others no it can not. But this is based on assumptions.

 

As to group balance. This game is very badly group balanced. Some classes have very little use or impact in group play.

Edited April 7, 2012 by finansjapp

[finansjapp]

It happens very rarely under very specific circumstances. It doesn't happen nearly enough to be concerned about. Please don't exaggerate.

 

I think the hardest part of this discussion for those that oppose tanks doing good damage is accepting the fact that someone else is simply better than you. With the multitude of threads like these arising lately, you would think every assassin in the game is walking around with full BM gear and a 31/31/31 spec, which most certainly isn't the case.

 

They will fix a lot of the hybrid problems in this game with next patch. So hopefully it will be even less problems then. It is too easy now to be very good in doing damage and tanking. Same with hybrid healers. That make group play very unbalanced also.

[Knockerz]

Tanks should never do more damage than a dps spec player period. The same is true of a healer. However, tanks defensive mechanisms should work in pvp too making them extremely hard to kill.

[Varicite]

Tanks should never do more damage than a dps spec player period. The same is true of a healer. However, tanks defensive mechanisms should work in pvp too making them extremely hard to kill.

 

How can you even say this in the realm of PvP, where a DPS spec player may be terrible and spend most of their time dead and a tank might do well in damage by surviving the entire battle?

[BambulaGTS]

Okay.

 

Now I know there is a "productive" damage and "unproductive" damage.

 

Assasin tanks in DPS gear do 500-600 k of unproductive damage during WZ.

 

While my sniper do 500 k of productive damage during WZ (in case he is jumping of his pants AoEing every square millimeter of the floor).

 

And that's why it is working as intended.

 

That's why when assasin tank in DPS gear meets my sniper both with CDs up he unproductively kills my sniper during 3-4 whites + lightning + discharge + death field + assasinate.

 

So unproductive I must say

Edited April 7, 2012 by BambulaGTS