why be a pure DPS when DPS tanks do more damage

[Vaipyr]

Oh look dps upset that tanks are viable in pvp for once in an MMO.

 

^

This

 

This is basically what every nerf (insert tank here) thread comes down to.

[BambulaGTS]

 

Also to the sniper/gunslinger who was complaining about sins: You need to learn what to look for so you don't waste your CC. If a sin turns silver or a shadow turns kinda golden yellow, use white damage attacks. If they force lightning, use a knockback or a stun. Fighting a good gunslinger/sniper is one of my tougher fights, it's just that you need to understand when not to waste your CC. I know when to save my stuns against you, so you better know when to save yours against me.

 

And if they use lightning while glowing siver/golden what to do professor?

 

Cause it ticks for 1700 with adrenals/recklesness up

[Cowflab]

And if they use lightning while glowing siver/golden what to do professor?

 

Cause it ticks for 1700 with adrenals/recklesness up

 

Stun them, or use a KB to interupt... No wonder people are sounding so clueless. Uninterruptable =/= unstoppable. You just can't use abilities like Jolt to stop it.

[Froteus]

^

This

 

This is basically what every nerf (insert tank here) thread comes down to.

 

Yeh. And what are usually the most mouth breathing morons in every MMo

 

Dps

 

So is it a surprise they cry nerf to healers and tanks? No.

 

The Terribads would rather cry nerf than improve. The pve game shows clearly that the gas majority of bads are dps. I'm pretty sure that translates to pvp too.

 

Qq

[Aamp]

LoL this is a stupid debate.

 

This thread is simply about the difference between burst damage and total damage. BURST damage (a lot of damage in a very short period of time) is what you need against healers and most effective in PvP. Having a lot of burst damage, doesn't necessarily mean you will do more TOTAL damage. It merely means that your damage has a "spiky" characteristic.

 

When tanks (I define that as classes who can guard) can burst like pure DPS classes... then they will need a nerf. So far, I haven't really seen too much evidence of that (Carolina Parkeet maybe).

Edited April 6, 2012 by Aamp

[AngryBuddhist]

DPS is a measure of damage per second while doing damage. Average DPS is a useless stat derived from your method of taking the arbitrary length of the match and dividing the useless damage done value by it. This is a completely useless stat since it relies upon the completely useless damage done stat and the completely useless length of time value.

 

This ridiculous sophistry is why you will never teach math or debate.

 

The only metric you can measure in a WZ is total damage for the WZ. that takes into account how often a player spends being dead.

 

A match isn't an arbitrary length, it is a FIXED length. Total damage during the fixed length of time is a reasonable metric to decide balance between classes over many WZ's.

 

The problem, as the OP explains and only about 1/3 of the posters grasp, is that pure DPS classes do not compete with hybrid tank/dps classes. This is an obvious fact when you play a thousand war zones and see it over and over again.

 

To balance this in a warzone, the hybrids need to get nerfed on damage or resistance to damage OR the pure DPs need to bet buffed for damage or resistance to damage.

 

In a balanced game with equivalent players, at the end of the match, total damage done should be roughly equal if the game is balanced. This game is NOT!

Edited April 6, 2012 by AngryBuddhist

[Varicite]

Stun them, or use a KB to interupt... No wonder people are sounding so clueless. Uninterruptable =/= unstoppable. You just can't use abilities like Jolt to stop it.

 

Um, most KBs and stuns are Force/Tech damage, and the poster you quoted was saying WHILE they are glowing (aka while using Force Shroud). The only thing that I know of that works through Force Shroud is the Ops/Scoundrel root, but there may be others.

 

You can LoS or try to get out of range if you're near 30m, other than that you have to eat the damage really. It's only going to tick for that much once every couple minutes, though.

 

Most other classes can blow someone up w/ relic/adrenal/class cooldowns also.

[BambulaGTS]

Um, most KBs and stuns are Force/Tech damage, and the poster you quoted was saying WHILE they are glowing (aka while using Force Shroud). The only thing that I know of that works through Force Shroud is the Ops/Scoundrel root, but there may be others.

 

You can LoS or try to get out of range if you're near 30m, other than that you have to eat the damage really. It's only going to tick for that much once every couple minutes, though.

 

Most other classes can blow someone up w/ relic/adrenal/class cooldowns also.

 

There is no stun/mezz in game that has no tech/force spell hit check. Only some roots are delivered through ranged/melee attacks. But roots will not stop lightning, amirite?

 

Btw LoSing that thing is nearly impossible, cause it slows you, unless you have charge or vanish, amiright again?

 

@ professor, having 50 lvl assa and being such a nab Sweet.

[Varicite]

This ridiculous sophistry is why you will never teach math or debate.

 

The only metric you can measure in a WZ is total damage for the WZ. that takes into account how often a player spends being dead.

 

A match isn't an arbitrary length, it is a FIXED length. Total damage during the fixed length of time is a reasonable metric to decide balance between classes over many WZ's.

 

The problem, as the OP explains and only about 1/3 of the posters grasp, is that pure DPS classes do not compete with hybrid tank/dps classes. This is an obvious fact when you play a thousand war zones and see it over and over again.

 

To balance this is a warzone, the hybrids need to get nerfed on damage or resistance to damage OR the pure DPs need to bet buffed for damage or resistance to damage.

 

In a balanced game with equivalent players, at the end of the match, total damage done should be roughly equal if the game is balanced. This game is NOT!

 

Trying to balance the game based on artificially inflated numbers w/out taking into account all of the different factors (such as the difference between doing an AoE for 800 to 5 people or hitting 1 person for 4k) is a ridiculous notion.

 

The idea that every class should have roughly equal damage done, even though they all fulfill different roles and have varying rates of uptime is also not sound.

[Kai-Eurah-Tird]

Why be tank DPS when Marauder/Sentinel gets 99% damage reduction!?

 

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

[Zintair]

Try playing a Juggernaut that's immortal spec'd and tell me Assassin tanks aren't doing entirely too much damage.

 

Why can't people understand there are different types of tanks in this game?

 

 

An Immortal Jugg is not supposed to break 200k EVER. They have all the tools to be THE BEST PVP TANK in the game.

 

PBAOE Snare (best snare in the game especially for peeling)

2x leaps

Better Mitigation Cooldowns

Armor debuff

 

The list goes on.

 

 

You have ALL the tools to be the most viable character on your rateds team.

 

 

 

The Shadow / Assassin is more of a melee assist tank. When me and a Sentinel focus on a target its GFG, healer/tank/dps doesn't matter.

 

We have duo'd 5 people in Alderaan.

 

 

BTW Im in full Defensive gear and my highest protection hits around 300k with 200k AoE LoL DPS and about 70-90k Healing.

 

 

I have the SS's for any trolls as well.

 

 

You people complaining about DPS tanks are absolutely clueless. Not to mention EVERY single PvP MMO has had a DPS tank that was considered viable. But NO DPS TANK will EVER outdps a Pure DPS of the same skill level.

 

 

 

I am also a proponent of making FiB require Force Technique to cut the hybrid builds out.

[BambulaGTS]

I do not believe all that fluff talking about burst/sustained dps.

 

My sniper thought are simple:

 

IF tank class effectively cutting my burst on my supposed to hit targets (sorcs, healers etc.) BY using tank instrumentary: taunt, guard, slows, roots, stuns, pushes, pulls - I'm ok with that. Working as intended.

 

IF tank class (or particular tank spec) just completely nullifies my damage/uptime by sending me repeadetely to the spawn in 10 sec - it is clearly not working as intended.

 

That's what they do.

 

Why be pure dps if tanks are really capable to quickly send people at spawn while having tank survivability/peeling/utility.

Edited April 6, 2012 by BambulaGTS

[Sholagar]

This ridiculous sophistry is why you will never teach math or debate.

 

The only metric you can measure in a WZ is total damage for the WZ. that takes into account how often a player spends being dead.

 

A match isn't an arbitrary length, it is a FIXED length. Total damage during the fixed length of time is a reasonable metric to decide balance between classes over many WZ's.

 

The problem, as the OP explains and only about 1/3 of the posters grasp, is that pure DPS classes do not compete with hybrid tank/dps classes. This is an obvious fact when you play a thousand war zones and see it over and over again.

 

To balance this in a warzone, the hybrids need to get nerfed on damage or resistance to damage OR the pure DPs need to bet buffed for damage or resistance to damage.

 

In a balanced game with equivalent players, at the end of the match, total damage done should be roughly equal if the game is balanced. This game is NOT!

 

I am so glad they don't let you balance this game.

 

I won't explain why because you just don't get it, that one class doing 300k spread over 15minutes is balanced one way, and another class that maybe does a little less (lets say 250k), but does this damage in much shorter span of time (because their targets get DEAD) is balanced another way. Oh wait, maybe I did just explain it, but will you GET it??

 

Now, I do agree that some dps classes/specs may suffer from a lack of utility/variety in exchange for their burstiness.... but their damage is fine.

[Metalmac]

I do not believe all that fluff talking about burst/sustained dps.

 

My sniper thought are simple:

 

IF tank class effectively cutting my burst on my supposed to hit targets (sorcs, healers etc.) BY using tank instrumentary: taunt, guard, slows, roots, stuns, pushes, pulls - I'm ok with that. Working as intended.

 

IF tank class (or particular tank spec) just completely nullifies my damage/uptime by sending me repeadetely to the spawn in 10 sec - it is clearly not working as intended.

 

That's what they do.

 

Why be pure dps if tanks are really capable to quickly send people at spawn while having tank survivability/peeling/utility.

 

Exactly the point of many posts. Tanks are not supposed to be top damage EVER.

 

Survival is fine but they should never top the charts for damage unless some thing is wrong.

[Zintair]

Exactly the point of many posts. Tanks are not supposed to be top damage EVER.

 

Survival is fine but they should never top the charts for damage unless some thing is wrong.

 

WRONG

 

 

Skill > Class and Gear

 

 

A Tank in DPS gear whose really good will always outperform a baddie or mediocre player. Looking to the numbers for the confirmation is just plain wrong and not even really relevant.

[Cowflab]

My point is... Immortal Spec Juggs and Shield Tech Spec Powertechs cannot do that kind of damage.

 

The class is overpowered... If it's AoE that's overpowered, nerf the AoE. Regardless of how you chop it up, a kinetic spec'd Shadow in a full Rakata tank set should not be doing 500k damage. I don't care what the situation is. It's unacceptable. Especially when he also got 100k protection and 75k healing.

 

I would bet a months salary that any tank in full tank gear would not put up 500k damage that actually impacts the WZ(he would need the stars and planets to align, a pocket healer focused solely on him, and the other team to be idiots and stand on top of each other). You QQers are taking exaggeration to a whole new level ffs...

Edited April 6, 2012 by Cowflab

[Varicite]

Exactly the point of many posts. Tanks are not supposed to be top damage EVER.

 

Survival is fine but they should never top the charts for damage unless some thing is wrong.

 

Oh, I get it, so you really are just a DPS upset because a tank outdamaged you on some meaningless scoreboard.

 

I thought you may have had a real complaint, but statements like "tanks are not supposed to be top damage EVER" just show that you don't care about skill involved, different factors, or the fact that every match is unique; you just always want to be at the top because you clicked the "Create Character" button on a DPS class.

 

Grow up.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Varicite

[Cowflab]

Oh, I get it, so you really are just a DPS upset because a tank outdamaged you on some meaningless scoreboard.

 

I thought you may have had a real complaint, but statements like "tanks are not supposed to be top damage EVER" just show that you don't care about skill involved, different factors, or the fact that every match is unique; you just always want to be at the top because you clicked the "Create Character" button on a DPS class.

 

Grow up.

 

Nah, I think he's trolling. He's spewing the same garbage in 2 other threads. Either that or he is a prime example of why the PvP gear/valor system is being trivialized. He has managed to get to v83(maybe, he could be lying) and still hasn't figured out how to deal with tanks.

[Zintair]

Nah, I think he's trolling. He's spewing the same garbage in 2 other threads. Either that or he is a prime example of why the PvP gear/valor system is being trivialized. He has managed to get to v83(maybe, he could be lying) and still hasn't figured out how to deal with tanks.

 

You could technically get 100 Valor and never actually swing your saber.

 

That is broken IMO. Not the garbage these few qhiners are spewing on the PvP forums

[YanksfanJP]

Wth is an Alli? This isn't Azeroth homeboy...

 

 

busted

[YanksfanJP]

My point is... Immortal Spec Juggs and Shield Tech Spec Powertechs cannot do that kind of damage.

 

My point is that not all damage is productive damage.

 

The class is overpowered... If it's AoE that's overpowered, nerf the AoE. Regardless of how you chop it up, a kinetic spec'd Shadow in a full Rakata tank set should not be doing 500k damage. I don't care what the situation is. It's unacceptable. Especially when he also got 100k protection and 75k healing.

 

Just because a lot of meaningless AoE damage was done on a map where his team was able to farm the losers and keep them in a situation where AoE damage would inevitably add up doesn't make either the class or the AoE overpowered.

[AngryBuddhist]

I am so glad they don't let you balance this game.

 

I won't explain why because you just don't get it, that one class doing 300k spread over 15minutes is balanced one way, and another class that maybe does a little less (lets say 250k), but does this damage in much shorter span of time (because their targets get DEAD) is balanced another way. Oh wait, maybe I did just explain it, but will you GET it??

 

Now, I do agree that some dps classes/specs may suffer from a lack of utility/variety in exchange for their burstiness.... but their damage is fine.

 

That has nothing to do with the discussion. Read the original statement.

 

WHY BE A PURE DPS WHEN TANK/DPS DOES MORE DAMAGE. He may have mis-phrased it but the point is still obvious.

 

In a balanced scenario the 'burst' DPS should have equal damage to the hybrid spec's damage. If it doesn't, there is no reason to play the pure DPS class.

 

So go explain things to yourself. I know what I am discussing with the OP and I have no need for your opinion.

[AngryBuddhist]

Trying to balance the game based on artificially inflated numbers w/out taking into account all of the different factors (such as the difference between doing an AoE for 800 to 5 people or hitting 1 person for 4k) is a ridiculous notion.

 

The idea that every class should have roughly equal damage done, even though they all fulfill different roles and have varying rates of uptime is also not sound.

 

My last try to get you to understand the discussion.

 

WHY BE PURE DPS WHEN A TANK/DPS HYBRID ALWAYS DOES MORE DAMAGE IN A WZ.

 

The OP may have slightly mis-phrased it, but that is the point here.

 

All your clouding of the issue does not address the original argument. Has nothing to do with the time frames or getting dead.

 

Why should i roll as a pure DPs when a tank/dps hybrid will always out damage me?

 

Why would a raid EVER take a pure DPS over a tank/hybrid that brings more damage to the encounter?

 

Burst/Schmurst... you can't burst when your dead.

[Cowflab]

My last try to get you to understand the discussion.

 

WHY BE PURE DPS WHEN A TANK/DPS HYBRID ALWAYS DOES MORE DAMAGE IN A WZ.

 

The OP may have slightly mis-phrased it, but that is the point here.

 

All your clouding of the issue does not address the original argument. Has nothing to do with the time frames or getting dead.

 

Why should i roll as a pure DPs when a tank/dps hybrid will always out damage me?

 

Why would a raid EVER take a pure DPS over a tank/hybrid that brings more damage to the encounter?

 

Burst/Schmurst... you can't burst when your dead.

 

The only way a pure dps is out dps'd by a tank is when they either 1) are a bad player, or 2) able to spam AoEs in very specific scenarios that are irrelevant to overall game balance. Why are people still clinging to this "this shadow had the most overall damage done in a turtle voidstar, nerf plox" mentality? It's illogical.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Cowflab

[Garibaldi_Scipio]

So you are asserting that a Ferrari can only drive 14 MPH?

That is factually incorrect.

 

DPS is a measure of what a class can do while damaging. It is not Total Damage / Total Time it is a measure of Damage / Time Spent Damaging.

 

1. Nope, that's not that I'm saying.

2. DPS is not a measure of what a class can do while damaging. DPS is Damage Per Second, which is calculated by taking the total damage inflicted and dividing it by a fixed length of time.

 

What you're missing is that there's theoretical DPS and actual DPS.

 

In the car analogy, lets say (for simplicity's sake) that a Ferrari's top speed is 200 MPH. Therefore, it can theoretically travel 200 miles in an hour. But in actuality, in any given test, it may only be able to travel 150 miles in an hour if it breaks down or runs out of gas or some other reason. Therefore, it's actual MPH for that test would be 150. It may still have reached a speed of 200 at some point but that's irrelevant because it only went 150 total miles.... because the formula is Miles over Time.

 

Now let's say that a Marauder's top damage per second is 555. If the player was able to average 555 points of damage every second for 15 minutes, they would end up with 500,000 total damage (give or take). That's theoretical because we are assuming there are no mitigating factors. But in practice, maybe the aforementioned marauder ended up doing only 200,000 points of damage in 15 minutes. Their actual DPS for that match was 222 instead of 555.

 

The original poster thinks that this means that Tanks do more DPS than DPS classes. This may or may not be true. We haven't seen enough evidence to prove it one way or the other.

 

But even if it turns out that tank classes average more damage per second (in warzones) than DPS classes, so what? All that damage may or may not effect the outcome of the match. Spreading damage all over the place is nice for statistics, but doesn't necessarily win you matches. All it proves is that you did X amount of damage in a given amount of time. You could theoretically damage a given enemy over and over again, for the entire match and not kill them. Your numbers might be off the chart. You're DPS would be outrageous. But again, so what?