You win, I give up on my Juggernaut.

[Bation]

The only reason to play as a tank in pvp is to be a ball carrier unless ur only doin that being a tank in pvp is retarded

[CBRGhostRider]

The only reason to play as a tank in pvp is to be a ball carrier unless ur only doin that being a tank in pvp is retarded

 

And I was hoping Bioware was making it viable, since AFAIK they claimed that tanking would have a role in pvp.

 

But it seems that it is limited to huttball only. I would like to be able to hold that turret or door for a little while until my team gets here. But if I have lost saber ward or invincible, it's most likely not going to happen. That is the kind of roll I was hoping to play as a tank in this game.

 

But as it stands, I think you are right, and therefore making the case for the OP.

[thorizdin]

The only reason to play as a tank in pvp is to be a ball carrier unless ur only doin that being a tank in pvp is retarded

 

That's so wrong its not even funny. Watch how many tanks are in rated teams. Tanks + healers will be the foundation of every team, guard and taunt in a team that works together might even be too strong. That's why if you look in the PvP forums there are several threads asking for guard and/or taunt to be nerfed.

Edited April 4, 2012 by thorizdin

[CBRGhostRider]

That's so wrong its not even funny. Watch how many tanks are in rated teams. Tanks + healers will be the foundation of every team, guard and taunt in a team that works together might even be too strong. That's why if you look in the PvP forums there are several threads asking for guard and/or taunt to be nerfed.

 

In a pre-made yep, it's great! In a PUG, even when I whisper and tell a healer that I will be guarding him, I hardly ever get any heals (no jokes!). And a non-healed juggernaut goes down almost as quickly as a non-healed anyone else, which is what my problem is. Again, it doesn't help me to hold a turret or door for some time, when I am the only one there.

 

(I mostly find myself PUGging pvp because I sneak in game time in between other things, and can't always play on a schedule).

[lordofdamornin]

In a pre-made yep, it's great! In a PUG, even when I whisper and tell a healer that I will be guarding him, I hardly ever get any heals (no jokes!). And a non-healed juggernaut goes down almost as quickly as a non-healed anyone else, which is what my problem is. Again, it doesn't help me to hold a turret or door for some time, when I am the only one there.

 

(I mostly find myself PUGging pvp because I sneak in game time in between other things, and can't always play on a schedule).

 

Maybe you aren't getting heals because you aren't aware of where the healer(s) are in relationship to you? Or perhaps you are getting heals, but are standing in the middle of an open area, so that you can be focused? If you are folding as quickly as you say, then at least one of these two things is probably true.

 

With the exception of 2 stealthers, or other high CC classes, you should be able to hold a door/turret against 2 for...20-odd seconds or so, without help. Longer, if you're good, or outgear them both.

 

That's a long time. If no one comes to help you in that time, that's your team's fail, not yours.

 

Riôt

[JefferyClark]

Some of the best tanks I know are Juggies.

 

I guess you ain't doing it right.

 

Take away their premade healers and we'll see how good they are... and on another note, we aren't "broken" in the sense that we can't play... we are broken in the sense that to achieve something as a Jugg/Guard we have to work 10x harder than any other class and do everything perfect - 1 mistake or missed cooldown and we're dead.

Edited April 4, 2012 by JefferyClark

[CBRGhostRider]

Maybe you aren't getting heals because you aren't aware of where the healer(s) are in relationship to you? Or perhaps you are getting heals, but are standing in the middle of an open area, so that you can be focused? If you are folding as quickly as you say, then at least one of these two things is probably true.

 

With the exception of 2 stealthers, or other high CC classes, you should be able to hold a door/turret against 2 for...20-odd seconds or so, without help. Longer, if you're good, or outgear them both.

 

That's a long time. If no one comes to help you in that time, that's your team's fail, not yours.

 

Riôt

 

Yeah focus-fired upon is one example. I know I cant expect god-mode, but if my saber ward and invincible is down, then its hard to last 10 seconds against 4-5 people without a healer. This may sound like a lot, but keep in mind that I am doing no dps whatsoever. My sole purpose will be for example to aoe the door so they cannot put the bomb there, while my team is stuck at spawn point upstairs.

 

Although one thing I will say, I just use my columi+rakata gear these days and it seems to have improved my survival. So maybe any fix that comes may not be in the class but in gear? Just thinking out loud.

 

And oh yeah, my worst pvp experience to date has been an operative coming out of stealth, putting that spear thingy inside me (don't know the ability), stunning me, and viciously backstabbing repeatedly. That burst damage is freaking nuts... and on a tank nonetheless. Things like these make me question class balance. I dropped real quick on that one. How do I even defend when I don't see him coming, and then get burst damaged so quick? I need saber throw + charge to even begin to generate rage...

Edited April 4, 2012 by CBRGhostRider

[thorizdin]

Take away their premade healers and we'll see how good they are... and on another note, we aren't "broken" in the sense that we can't play... we are broken in the sense that to achieve something as a Jugg/Guard we have to work 10x harder than any other class and do everything perfect - 1 mistake or missed cooldown and we're dead.

 

Again completely wrong. PTs have fewer clicks and are more passive but Sins are more active in that they have several debuffs that have to be used in the right order. Jugs in equal gear are no harder (and for some fights are easier) than other tanks. Depending on your build (31/10 or 14/27) you can do any and all of the content with no more difficulty than any other tank. If you're trying to run something other than a known good build then you're creating your own problems. If you're running a good build and still having issues then its probably not you unless you're just completely screwing up (refusing to use taunt or other silliness) the problem is more than likely your team makeup or teamwork.

 

We've run 5/5 KP and 4/5 EV NiM with all three imperial tanks and do so on a regular basis. Hell, I'm slightly less geared than our primary Sin and PTs tanks and it still doesn't make a measurable difference.

[Elyk_Borne]

***Preface: I am in a guild of strong PvPers that have been together over multiple games and played well as a group. I personally have been doing PvP in MMOs since DAoC and very much enjoyed the tank playstyle in what has been pretty much every game I've played up to SWTOR. My ability to play the class really isn't in question here - what is in question is the fact that the numbers and skills make no sense.***

 

You win Bioware.

 

I'm ready to give up on my Juggernaut. The class seems like it should be good, right up until you get into any sort of PvP situation with it.

 

We get heavy armor. Seems awesome right? Then you realize it doesn't actually mitigate damage from the majority of skills, or mitigates only part of it and you're still taking elemental or internal damage.

 

We're a tank class, so we should have more health than other classes right? Nope, not even if you make an effort to get more, because everyone can mod their gear to have the exact same mods you do and apparently DPS classes like marauders/sentinels should have more base HP to compensate for their lower potential armor. Except the armor doesn't actually mitigate most of the damage that kills you.

 

Next, we come to base class cooldowns. We get Endure Pain, which seems like it should be good, but in reality just lets you live another 10 seconds maybe, 15 if you spec all the way up Immortal. At the end you will, 95% of the time, have a DoT on you and die to the tick immediately following the expiration of Endure Pain. I have this happen even when I have a pocket healer in PvP because suddenly I lose 30% of my health and then take a DoT tick while he's channeling a heal.

 

Saber Ward is actually a halfway decent cooldown. The problem is it's on a 3 minute timer. This is the ability we get in place of a 4 second stun that the other base classes get. Said stun has a 1 minute cooldown and can be decreased to 50 seconds for every other class. I have no way to reduce the cooldown on Saber Ward, which I can already use only 1/3 as often as the equivalent abilities given to other classes. Also, this ability is available to marauders so they get another defensive cooldown.

 

Force Push is supposed to be our equivalent to Grapple and Force Pull, except it's on a longer cooldown and 50% or more of the time, the client has different positions than the server and you end up pushing your target in a completely different direction other than the one you intended, whereas Grapple and Force Pull you just have to deal with the possibility of bouncing someone off the ceiling. Only really relevant in a few places in Huttball.

 

You can spec Immortal and get Invincible, except that has the same problem Saber Ward does - the cooldown is way, way too long for PvP especially considering the abilities other classes get. In turn, you get to try and play in Soresu with terrible rage generation and damage output (which I did for the first 67 Valor ranks). Because tanking in this game is entirely cooldown dependent for PvP, you can tank for about 22 seconds (Invincible followed by Saber Ward) while tank specced. During that time, the best you can put out pitiful damage that can be healed through by an DPS specced heal capable class, which I don't really have a problem with, except the other tank specs don't have this issue. Powertechs get a 25% reduction for 12 seconds every 2 minutes. Assassins get immunity to tech and Force powers for 5 seconds (if specced into it) and a 12% self heal every 20 seconds that does silly amounts of damage while slowing the target.

 

I finally gave up and specced Rage about a week ago, and the damage is actually making it possible for me to kill opponents and feel like I'm actually contributing to my team instead of just making us lose slower in bad matches. I'm enjoying this while I have the option to do so, before 1.2 is released. Once 1.2 comes out, marauders will be better smash monkeys than juggernauts because of Quick Recovery and the multitude of defensive cooldowns that make them more difficult to kill than a juggernaut.

 

I don't want to reroll. I shouldn't have to drop a character I've worked hard on since release because Zoeller seems to think that defensive stats do something in PvP and that class balance is somehow best served by making juggernauts inferior to marauders in almost every shape form or fashion in the DPS arena, and inferior to powertechs and assassins in the PvP tanking arena.

 

If the 1.2 changes go through as posted, there's a pretty good chance I'm just going to be done. My subscription is cancelled as of right now.

 

This makes me LMAO. Realize that as a tank, you are a support player. I have a lvl 43 Jug and do quite well in pvp. Throw your taunts, movement impairing(no CD) Chiling scream! and cc's.

 

You are not in PvP as a tank to kill everyone. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp among tanks?

 

If you want to rack up kills and dmg, then stay spec'd in rage or veng.

 

Also, I think your ability to play the class is in question.

 

 

Add: The way you spec your jug matters a lot. Big difference in speccing for PvE and PvP.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Elyk_Borne

[Elyk_Borne]

The only reason to play as a tank in pvp is to be a ball carrier unless ur only doin that being a tank in pvp is retarded

 

Jug tank should rarely be the ball carrier if ever.

[Sindeon]

Jug tank should rarely be the ball carrier if ever.

 

Ill disagree with that completely. on my jugg i think he makes an awesome ball carrier - immunity after charge to CC / movement impairments + the two leaps and push. Intercede to a player up on top of the ramps an enemy jumps to try and slow you down force push will land them at that distance into their goal basically force charge ( which will give you the immunity ) and the goal is scored in a few seconds all the while you have if your geared before your valor dmg reduce reductions around 45-50% or more before you apply any cool downs.

[ACTroyan]

unfortunatley the best way to fill the tank role you seem to desire is a huddle/unstoppable spec OP try it out! u can still get invinsible too if you like! and the hard mitigation enables u do do some dmg if you pick up impale too only problem is you lose easy peels of backhand and unchanneled choke, although i heard they are ninja removing huddle in 1.2... if u keep charge and intercede on cd and your healer knows your guarding him you can both become immortal pretty easy! lets just hope huddle is not removed(its not in patch notes)

[Scinald]

Man...the attacks on the OP here are ridiculous and smack of denial and desperation. The Juggernaut, in general, is the worst tank period. I'm sure many of you who say it is okay play it well...but I'll also bet you'd do better on an equally geared PT/Vanguard or Shadow/Assassin....barring playstyle differences. The defensive cool downs are too long, the utility is marginal and the damage is pathetic compared to the other classes when each of them is in their tank spec.

 

Now, the DPS specs for Jugg can do a few things the other tank class DPS specs can't do...that much is true. But for pure survivability and control, the other tanks have it much better.

 

And before I get L2P comments...yes I have a Battlemaster Jugg and yes I have a level 50 VG and a level 33 Shadow and a 50 Sentinel and blah, blah, blah. Like the OP I've been playing PvP MMOs for years now and recently spent three years in WAR which has very good PvP tanks EXCEPT for the Swordmaster which I played and which the Juggernaut reminds me of a bit in balancing issues.

 

I have no idea if the next patch is going to do much for the Juggy....but we'll see if it improves things and if not I'll go back to playing other toons and slagging the Juggernauts out there that think they are good with classes that are simply superior to them.

[Rethos]

As a juggernaut player who plays as both a tank and dps in pvp I really don't understand many of the complaints of the OP.

 

As a tank I am putting out an average of 400k protection, capable of moving the ball quickly as a ball carrier and surviving, and capable of locking down any class in the game I want to until they get frustrated and run away unless they get burned down by our team's dps.

 

As a dps I can consistently put out 300 to 400k damage and top the kill boards.

 

I'm not sure what more you could want from this class.

 

The major assumption here is that the OP knows how to play his class, knows his rotation strategy for both roles in pvp, knows positioning strategy, knows team strategy, knows how to properly gear for both roles, and understands proper stat weighting for each role. As with anyone in these forums that's alot of assumptions.

 

So here is my two cents. A lot of people in this thread including myself feel that the Jugg is a superior class capable of more than the OP thinks it is. Perhaps instead of arguing you might ask these posters how it is they do what they do?

 

Just a crazy thought.

 

Another crazy thought is this; proficiency in any other mmo does not equate to proficiency in this game.

 

So good troll OP, good troll!

[Nemmar]

As a juggernaut player who plays as both a tank and dps in pvp I really don't understand many of the complaints of the OP.

 

As a tank I am putting out an average of 400k protection, capable of moving the ball quickly as a ball carrier and surviving, and capable of locking down any class in the game I want to until they get frustrated and run away unless they get burned down by our team's dps.

 

As a dps I can consistently put out 300 to 400k damage and top the kill boards.

 

I'm not sure what more you could want from this class.

 

The major assumption here is that the OP knows how to play his class, knows his rotation strategy for both roles in pvp, knows positioning strategy, knows team strategy, knows how to properly gear for both roles, and understands proper stat weighting for each role. As with anyone in these forums that's alot of assumptions.

 

So here is my two cents. A lot of people in this thread including myself feel that the Jugg is a superior class capable of more than the OP thinks it is. Perhaps instead of arguing you might ask these posters how it is they do what they do?

 

Just a crazy thought.

 

Another crazy thought is this; proficiency in any other mmo does not equate to proficiency in this game.

 

So good troll OP, good troll!

 

They need to go play some Retribution Paladin on WoW and get back to us.

[Dylancholy]

You aren't doing it right

 

see above

[Reli_BOON]

heh...

I can pretty much DECLAIR i will be the one scoring in huttball before the match even starts.

while guarding a healer (if one exists) for around 100k prot.

while dealing 200k+ dmg.

 

I can kill ppl while carrying the ball.

I can kill ppl 1v2/1v3 while in dps mode (same build, just change stim/stance/generator-shield)

 

I can kill healers (well operatives sometimes take longer )

I can stop tanks/seperate them from their guard target/kill them

I can withstand 4+ players trying to kill/CC me for over 20 secs

 

but most important

I LOOK COOL WHILE DOING IT!!!

 

So OP, do tell how competitive you are in pvp and how the class is broken...

[Akfourtys]

in a group situation there is nothing a juggernaut can do that one of the other tanks can't do just as well while either putting out more damage or having better survivability.

U must be kidding, right? That lil helpful ability juggs have, that they call intercede. Juggernaut is realy unstoppable on huttball, its just not enough to drop him off the ledge, he immediately comes back if any ally up there. f.e. tankasins and powertechs need to go there by foot

[Nemmar]

heh...

I can pretty much DECLAIR i will be the one scoring in huttball before the match even starts.

while guarding a healer (if one exists) for around 100k prot.

while dealing 200k+ dmg.

 

I can kill ppl while carrying the ball.

I can kill ppl 1v2/1v3 while in dps mode (same build, just change stim/stance/generator-shield)

 

I can kill healers (well operatives sometimes take longer )

I can stop tanks/seperate them from their guard target/kill them

I can withstand 4+ players trying to kill/CC me for over 20 secs

 

but most important

I LOOK COOL WHILE DOING IT!!!

 

So OP, do tell how competitive you are in pvp and how the class is broken...

 

Oh man and killing that boss in Eternity Vault... i forget his name (the one in the lava). You dont have to run out from his pounce, you just wait for the last second and intercede a ranged and charge back in... everyone says how cool i look when i do that, and i sure love to do it. Its awesome. Great mobility.

[bananaface]

let's compare tank assassin to tank jugg from a pvp perspective.

 

assassin:

force pull

force shroud

force speed

2 single target stuns (1 long range)

aoe knockback

takes less passive dmg from force and tech ability's

higher passive endurance

higher stealth detection

defensive cooldowns on a shorter cooldown

selfhealing

 

jugg:

force charge

force push

intercede

2 melee/close range singletarget stuns (1 channeled unless specced)

aoe stun

defensive cooldowns on a longer cooldown

 

and to the question, "what is better? force shroud+force speed or charge+force push+intercede";

vs a pug the juggernaut is the better ball carrier cause of random scrubs who stand on the ledge pewpewing at you so you can charge them.

but do you need to be tank specced to do this? eh no..you can do it just aswell as rage and (if not better due to unstoppable) as vengeance.

vs a premade (a good one ofc) you won't get this opportunity nor a chance to leap to a friendly target cause the premade will make sure you won't be able to.

thus being immune to all tech and force ability's for 5 seconds and are able to use this while sprinting will be better by a mile.

 

so you can see, a darkness assassin is better in pvp in almost every way.

the only thing that a jugg brings is the aoe stun wich is usefull while capping turrets or planting/defusing a bomb. however a dps specced jugg can do the same.

 

and i didn't even start about the higher TTL and EH an assassin tank has over a jugg tank (concerns pve aswell) or the dmg.

 

so what will a pvp jugg tank add to a group in competitive pvp over an assassin tank or a dps jugg?

eh...... guard?! oh wait.. NO TAUNT!..oh wait..STUNS!..oh..

 

but in the end of the day, you're still effective vs random scrubs and that's what matters right?

[CBRGhostRider]

 

You are not in PvP as a tank to kill everyone. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp among tanks?

 

If you want to rack up kills and dmg, then stay spec'd in rage or veng.

 

Dude no offense, but did you even read what the OP posted? Here's the summary:

 

* Heavy armor doesnt do much

* Tank class, but similar health to other classes

* cooldowns are really bad on defensive talents

* Force push has issues due to client-server differences

* Immortal spec you get invincible, but again long cooldown. Your dps as a tank in immortal ISN'T ON PAR WITH OTHER TANKS (no one is talking about being a full on dps here)

* Rage spec is good, but come 1.2 marauders rage will be even better (because they have other things as well, so why spec rage in juggernaut)?

 

NO ONE SO FAR HAS FOCUSED ON ANY OF THESE POINTS THE OP HAS MADE.

 

Add: The way you spec your jug matters a lot. Big difference in speccing for PvE and PvP.

 

So I should have to re-spec 2-3 times a day because I jump between pvp and tanking ops bosses? I wish they had told me this when I chose my class at level 1 and advanced class at level 10.

 

All things aside, I actually *LOVE* playing my juggernaut. I really do. I love the playstyle, and the utility. But I'm sure things could be done to improve all the obvious shortcomings that the op has brought up.

[Zellfel]

So I should have to re-spec 2-3 times a day because I jump between pvp and tanking ops bosses? I wish they had told me this when I chose my class at level 1 and advanced class at level 10.

 

What does class have to do with anything when PvE oriented spec and a PvP oriented spec are generally different, and you have to do that regardless of your class if you want to be competitive at either?

 

And to stay on topic, let me address your summary:

 

Dude no offense, but did you even read what the OP posted? Here's the summary:

 

* Heavy armor doesnt do much

* Tank class, but similar health to other classes

* cooldowns are really bad on defensive talents

* Force push has issues due to client-server differences

* Immortal spec you get invincible, but again long cooldown. Your dps as a tank in immortal ISN'T ON PAR WITH OTHER TANKS (no one is talking about being a full on dps here)

* Rage spec is good, but come 1.2 marauders rage will be even better (because they have other things as well, so why spec rage in juggernaut)?

 

NO ONE SO FAR HAS FOCUSED ON ANY OF THESE POINTS THE OP HAS MADE.

 

1. Irrelevant, applies to everyone.

2. The game balances tanks around having higher pve mitigation/avoidance, not significantly higher health pools. Unfortunately this isn't helpful in pvp, hence why it is recommended you use dps gear in pvp instead of actual tank gear.

3. Not bad, long.

4. Applies to any knockback in the game in the presence of lag.

5. I've seen differently, again in dps gear. See the videos that were posted.

6. His point was that Marauders have quick recovery to make them better "smash monkeys" (except they lose quick recovery so from that perspective, not really). Also his points about heavy handed in the tank spec are kind of pointless seeing as single saber mastery will now work for Soresu form, giving 6% damage to all other skills (including the ones that lose damage in heavy handed so the nerf for that is negligible with the exception being possibly smash).

 

That cover everything?

Edited April 4, 2012 by Zellfel

[Dracosz]

assassin:

force pull

force shroud

force speed

2 single target stuns (1 long range)

aoe knockback

takes less passive dmg from force and tech ability's

higher passive endurance

higher stealth detection

defensive cooldowns on a shorter cooldown

selfhealing

 

jugg:

force charge

force push

intercede

2 melee/close range singletarget stuns (1 channeled unless specced)

aoe stun

defensive cooldowns on a longer cooldown

 

There's so much that's wrong with this method of comparing the two specs that it's not even funny.

[Morgond]

Have you ever heard the expression "dead players do no DPS"? That's why you bring DPS in the first place. The other tanks do just as good a job of mitigating damage as a juggernaut does, bring just as much if not more survivability to the table, and more damage.

 

You know what else the other tanks have? People qqing in their class forums about how they are inferior and need to be buffed. You cant focus on everything the other classes are good at, belittle what juggs are good at and cry imbalance. I have played my jugg up to rank 78 now with very little time on alts and consistently beat the tar out of people in my vengeance spec. Not to mention I have probably scored hundreds of times in huttball and healer friends say I am one of the easiest people they know to keep alive. Either your playstyle isnt meshing with the class or you run with some really bad players. After all every class sucks on a crappy team.

[Dracosz]

Dude no offense, but did you even read what the OP posted? Here's the summary:

 

* Heavy armor doesnt do much

* Tank class, but similar health to other classes

* cooldowns are really bad on defensive talents

* Force push has issues due to client-server differences

* Immortal spec you get invincible, but again long cooldown. Your dps as a tank in immortal ISN'T ON PAR WITH OTHER TANKS (no one is talking about being a full on dps here)

* Rage spec is good, but come 1.2 marauders rage will be even better (because they have other things as well, so why spec rage in juggernaut)?

 

I'll bite, fine.

 

1) The thing is every other class in heavy armor (including powertechs which people love to whine about) have to deal with the issue of armor not being as impressive as it should be. Is it poor design? Sure, but again, it's not like we're the only people being singled out.

 

2) We make up for our lower health pools in other ways. While it's unfortunate that sonic barrier doesn't scale, it's saved my *** more times than I'd like to think.

 

3) Our CDs are decent. Endure pain is a scumbag CD which works best when you have another healer, but Blade ward is fantastic. It absolutely shuts down damage from every melee class in the game and neuters non-lethality snipers and ops.

 

4) Again, we can dps just as well as any other tank spec out there if we swap mods out. Even if you pick up the war leader gear, you can optimize your gear to work in tandem with damage dealing. It's what EVERY good player in the game does, and it's a habit you should get into if you want to get the best out of your class. Invincible is a strong CD, I don't know why people give it so much hate, but it's damn good at keeping you alive as a tank.

 

5) *facepalm* You play a juggernaut not only to deal damage, but to provide defensive utility via taunts and yes, swapping forms to give people guard. I do it ALL the time, no matter what spec I am, because it helps my team. I've seen games where juggernauts do 600k+ damage, but have no guard whatsoever on their entire team, that, to me at least, means that all they want to do is tunnel damage and while I'm not saying that Marauders only tunnel damage, it's readily apparent to me that these juggernauts rolled the wrong class. They would have been better off playing marauder and providing OFFENSIVE group utility.

 

We are NOT a broken class by any stretch of the imagination. Gear and group dependent? Most certainly.