No Cross Realm LFG tool please!

[Myria_K]

Anyone from either camp have any extra arguments to add to these?

 

I have one: Why be against the introduction of a tool no one has to use?

 

The answer, of course, is because you bloody well know the vast majority will use it.

 

That's what this always boils down to: control. A pathetic attempt to control what other people do by not allowing them the option of using a tool you don't like.

 

No one has to use a cross server LFG. You're free to form groups however you like. In fact in games that have a cross server LFG that I've played (Rift and WoW) it was still common to have full guild runs or to just use the LFG to fill in a slot or two.

 

Cross server LFG or no, you're free to form groups any way you bloody well like. Of course if either Rift or WoW are at all indicative, the vast majority will simple queue, not giving a rat's arse who or what server anyone is from that they group with. They'll join, do the instance, maybe say 'GG', and drop group.

 

They do that because they want to, not because anyone forces them to. But to a certain very vocal part of the forum warrior population, that's simply not acceptable. Everyone should be doing things their way, for the good of the mythical community. They know bloody well that, given the option, most of the server population would, by their actions, tell them to take their 'community' and place it where the sun doesn't shine, the possibility of people being able to do that terrifies them.

 

They fear the tool because, and only because, they know most people would use it.

 

And that simply isn't acceptable to them.

 

They should not have the right to tell the majority that they can't have a tool they know the majority would use.

 

For reasons I can't fathom, Bioware feels beholden to this stupidity, but I firmly believe that in the end they will either give the majority the tools they want, or they will watch this game fall further into unrecoverable MMO obscurity.

[Valkirus]

I have one: Why be against the introduction of a tool no one has to use?

 

The answer, of course, is because you bloody well know the vast majority will use it.

 

That's what this always boils down to: control. A pathetic attempt to control what other people do by not allowing them the option of using a tool you don't like.

 

No one has to use a cross server LFG. You're free to form groups however you like. In fact in games that have a cross server LFG that I've played (Rift and WoW) it was still common to have full guild runs or to just use the LFG to fill in a slot or two.

 

Cross server LFG or no, you're free to form groups any way you bloody well like. Of course if either Rift or WoW are at all indicative, the vast majority will simple queue, not giving a rat's arse who or what server anyone is from that they group with. They'll join, do the instance, maybe say 'GG', and drop group.

 

They do that because they want to, not because anyone forces them to. But to a certain very vocal part of the forum warrior population, that's simply not acceptable. Everyone should be doing things their way, for the good of the mythical community. They know bloody well that, given the option, most of the server population would, by their actions, tell them to take their 'community' and place it where the sun doesn't shine, the possibility of people being able to do that terrifies them.

 

They fear the tool because, and only because, they know most people would use it.

 

And that simply isn't acceptable to them.

 

They should not have the right to tell the majority that they can't have a tool they know the majority would use.

 

For reasons I can't fathom, Bioware feels beholden to this stupidity, but I firmly believe that in the end they will either give the majority the tools they want, or they will watch this game fall further into unrecoverable MMO obscurity.

 

Blunt...but factual post. Well done.

[chaosdefined]

We have actually been trying to come up with different ideas on how it could be sorted with minimal grief. Unfortunately many of the Anti Cross Server Camp flat out refuse to reason.

 

In fact at the beginning of this restarted thread, one member who I had been arguing with constantly on the issue, he and I finally came to an agreement on how it could be sorted and please most people!

 

Even ideas like having a choice when you open up the tool, of going either Cross Server or sticking to Single Server before queueing, that would give both camps the choice they want. Yet for some reason they anti-group are still against this.

 

I'm wondering if they're just against it for the sake of being against it, rather than any logical reason?

[DarthKhaos]

Again, even with a cross-server LFG, you can still do this. You can still run with tanks you know from your server and just pug in other people from other servers. And if there isn't any tank on your server willing to queue with you, then you wouldn't have a group at all anyway. Expanding the list of players you can group with does not decrease your options, it increases them.

Really? And how would said person know who's a good tank from their server if they never ran with them before? You're going under the assumption that a Tank friend was already made. What about people who haven't made that contact yet? New players, players who've been lvling solo mostly, even the less social people. How will they group with that friend tank to queue in LFG if they don't got one? How are they going to find one to queue with after your cross server LFG is implemented if they never get to run with one only with tanks from other servers?

[Mezla]

Really? And how would said person know who's a good tank from their server if they never ran with them before? You're going under the assumption that a Tank friend was already made. What about people who haven't made that contact yet? New players, players who've been lvling solo mostly, even the less social people. How will they group with that friend tank to queue in LFG if they don't got one? How are they going to find one to queue with after your cross server LFG is implemented if they never get to run with one only with tanks from other servers?

 

Then they will group with a tank from LFG, cause they obviously don't give a crap about the 'community' you value so much.

[Gorrdan]

People keep talking about this community but where is it? the only real community exists in guilds. 100 people standing in fleet spamming LFG, cracking mom jokes, abusing and flaming each other for their religious and political beliefs isn't what i call a community.

[chaosdefined]

Really? And how would said person know who's a good tank from their server if they never ran with them before? You're going under the assumption that a Tank friend was already made. What about people who haven't made that contact yet? New players, players who've been lvling solo mostly, even the less social people. How will they group with that friend tank to queue in LFG if they don't got one? How are they going to find one to queue with after your cross server LFG is implemented if they never get to run with one only with tanks from other servers?

 

Even with the X-Server LFD in WoW, people still ask around for pugs for 5-mans in the Trade chat to success.

 

It is an option, you can still pug server side if you want. You are the one deciding you don't have the option, not us.

[Esproc]

Could we avoid irrelevant and ad hominem attacks like this please? It adds nothing to the discussion and detracts from the very real and very valid points being made.

 

 

So far, from what I can gather from the discussion, the argument seems to be breakign down like this:

Anti Cross-Server side is against cross-server LFG for two basic reasons:

1. Being grouped with people from other servers will not allow server-side peer pressure to punish wrongdoers.

2. Being grouped with people from other servers will not allow the formation of long-lasting friendships and links with the people they get grouped with.

 

Pro Cross-server is for cross-server LFG for two basic reason:

1. The many low population servers do not currently have enough people for everyone to get in a group, especially at non-prime times.

2. Implementing a broken system that you know won't fix the problem is just a waste of time.

 

Most of the debate seems to revolve around either supporting or refuting one of these four basic arguments.

 

Anyone from either camp have any extra arguments to add to these? If not, maybe we can discuss each of these in depth and try to find either find a solution that address everyone's concerns, or at least argue coherently and logically.

 

Yes, there is another topic that I had brought up, but the X-Server LFG camp attacked me on it. It was when I brought up Server Mergers and was told point blank NO! WE DON'T WANT SERVER MERGERS, WE WANT (NEED) X-SERVER LFG NOW!

 

That put a twist on things. Not wanting to have enough people on your server to be able to do "the same content" as the guilds without having to look to other servers. Why? They never said or gave any reason, just they want the X-Server LFG.

 

I did come up with a complete compromise for everybody, mostly anyways, if there is a X-Server LFG tool added.

 

Guilds get their runs and the loot, tokens, and whatever same as they do now from BW.

 

X-Server LFG same as guilds, no extra incentives added in to group.

 

Solo people, should get scaled version so "They Can Experience The Same Content" as the others. It is scaled so they get the same basic treatment, no extras.

 

If everyone claims BW should not have released the game without all the LFG/X-Server LFG/Add-ons/Macros/Rage Timers/Meters/ and Parsers et.al. then a scalable OP/FP run is easy to mix in as well. I'm sure they (BW) won't mind any.

 

And the reason you must accommodate the solo person/s is because they may be those against X-Server LFG in the first place and not in a guild either.

[chaosdefined]

Yes, there is another topic that I had brought up, but the X-Server LFG camp attacked me on it. It was when I brought up Server Mergers and was told point blank NO! WE DON'T WANT SERVER MERGERS, WE WANT (NEED) X-SERVER LFG NOW!

 

That put a twist on things. Not wanting to have enough people on your server to be able to do "the same content" as the guilds without having to look to other servers. Why? They never said or gave any reason, just they want the X-Server LFG.

 

I did come up with a complete compromise for everybody, mostly anyways, if there is a X-Server LFG tool added.

 

Guilds get their runs and the loot, tokens, and whatever same as they do now from BW.

 

X-Server LFG same as guilds, no extra incentives added in to group.

 

Solo people, should get scaled version so "They Can Experience The Same Content" as the others. It is scaled so they get the same basic treatment, no extras.

 

If everyone claims BW should not have released the game without all the LFG/X-Server LFG/Add-ons/Macros/Rage Timers/Meters/ and Parsers et.al. then a scalable OP/FP run is easy to mix in as well. I'm sure they (BW) won't mind any.

 

And the reason you must accommodate the solo person/s is because they may be those against X-Server LFG in the first place and not in a guild either.

 

Actually we didn't say no to Server Merges. Bioware did. They were against it when asked in a Q&A. The problem is if they were to do server merges so early into the games life, EA's investors would see this as a sign that the game was dying - whether true or not, that's how they would view it - and thus TOR would begin to lose backing. It sucks but it's how it goes. Even if it would help the game.

 

Also, I did state earlier in this thread about not adding any extra incentives for using the LFD tool, and just keeping the daily quests that you get currently.

[Esproc]

Actually we didn't say no to Server Merges. Bioware did. They were against it when asked in a Q&A. The problem is if they were to do server merges so early into the games life, EA's investors would see this as a sign that the game was dying - whether true or not, that's how they would view it - and thus TOR would begin to lose backing. It sucks but it's how it goes. Even if it would help the game.

 

Also, I did state earlier in this thread about not adding any extra incentives for using the LFD tool, and just keeping the daily quests that you get currently.

 

Yes, your pro X-Server faction did say no to server mergers when I mentioned them. Instead I was told only X-Server LFG would do, and server mergers were not wanted.

 

It is in this thread, and now I am supposed to do the searching for that proof? Will you accept that proof when I link the thread post? Or will it be denied as not viable, even though it is from these very forums? I ask, because I would really hate to waste my time on getting even more proof (as I have before) and just having it waylaid or dismissed even when it is stated in print (well like other evidence I posted that disappeared).

[Meldwyn]

Yes, your pro X-Server faction did say no to server mergers when I mentioned them. Instead I was told only X-Server LFG would do, and server mergers were not wanted.

 

It is in this thread, and now I am supposed to do the searching for that proof? Will you accept that proof when I link the thread post? Or will it be denied as not viable, even though it is from these very forums? I ask, because I would really hate to waste my time on getting even more proof (as I have before) and just having it waylaid or dismissed even when it is stated in print (well like other evidence I posted that disappeared).

 

I believe there are lots of things that need to be done with SW to make it succeed long term. Merge low pop servers, implement cross server tools, add in lots of "little things"(might start a post on this one), and others...

 

There is no one silver bullet, but if they want to solve the ability to see lower level content (fp's) now, cross server lfg is a great start.

 

(Keep in mind that just because someone is in favor of a cross server LFG tool, they don't necessarily speak for everyone who is also in favor of said tool on every subject that we discuss.)

Edited April 6, 2012 by Meldwyn

[Kaisernick]

Single server dungeon finder will be in 1.3.

 

I agree totally with 1 and 2, and that process of looking for a group should be automated.

 

For 3 however, if you have CROSS SERVER dungeon finder, vote kicking from groups will happen more frequently, due to no consequences. All manner of disruptive behavior will happen because they are from another server and they don't suffer any consequences.

 

while i agree with u right now some servers are so lacking in population they need to either merge servers or this.

 

i find grouping for flashpoints can take hours sometimes and my server isnt even that light.

[Blackardin]

So you would rather people sit around for 1+ hours just to find a single group for an ops?

 

#1 I am on one of the highest population servers and I have waited 35+ minutes for a simple Esseless group. I just don't get why people like you want to PUNISH those of us who just want to play this game and do it in a timely fashion.

 

#2 Community is so over-rated that is what a guild is for, and I don't want to wait 35+ minutes for a simple group.

 

Last time my dps logged into the LFG in Wow, the wait time was 45 minutes. If you tried for a less popular dungeon you could see wait times of 2 to 3 hours.

 

LFG is not the panacea that people claim it will be. It has more negatives then positives and the positives do not solve the problems that people believe it will. Most that want it are seeking instant gratification and not looking beyond their noses.

[Blackardin]

while i agree with u right now some servers are so lacking in population they need to either merge servers or this.

 

This is the solution and the only solution. Increased population per server will fix the problem. Cross server LFG is a red herring.

[Emilmedhinken]

To many pages to read, what were the response to the anti-xserver to "don't use it then"?

 

the **** is this community you are talking about? Hanging at the terminals and mailboxes spamming /1 for hours or sending random people /tells if they want to join a group where 3/4 of them don't even respond?

[Snoodmaster]

Really? And how would said person know who's a good tank from their server if they never ran with them before? You're going under the assumption that a Tank friend was already made. What about people who haven't made that contact yet? New players, players who've been lvling solo mostly, even the less social people. How will they group with that friend tank to queue in LFG if they don't got one? How are they going to find one to queue with after your cross server LFG is implemented if they never get to run with one only with tanks from other servers?

 

They can still meet people the same way they do now. They can still post in trade/general for anyone willing to run to queue with them. They can still make friends while questing or doing heroic missions. They can still join guilds and run with those guilds. Nothing about adding an option cross-server LFG tool prevents them from doing so.

 

Yes, there is another topic that I had brought up, but the X-Server LFG camp attacked me on it. It was when I brought up Server Mergers and was told point blank NO! WE DON'T WANT SERVER MERGERS, WE WANT (NEED) X-SERVER LFG NOW!

 

That put a twist on things. Not wanting to have enough people on your server to be able to do "the same content" as the guilds without having to look to other servers. Why? They never said or gave any reason, just they want the X-Server LFG.

 

It's not that we don't want server merges. It's that server merges will not work. See, server populations are dynamic. A high pop server today might lose subscribers for whatever reason and become a low pop server in a few months. A low pop server might gain a few and become high pop. The whole game might gain or lose subscribers and alter the server balance.

 

Leaving aside the inherent problems of trying to get the perfect balance of players with a server merge and the issue of investor confidence, let's say that Bioware DOES do a server merge. They manage to get it just right and get everyone into 10 servers with each having the population of The Fatman. What happens two months down the road when subscription numbers go up and they have 3million subscribers? What happens if one of those servers is the unofficial "Brazilian" server and then they decide to put in real Latin American servers? If you try to use server merges as a bandaid for the long term fix of equalizing the play experience across multiple server populations, Bioware will end up having to do server merges/transfers/etc every few months just to keep up with the ebb and flow of the game's population.

 

And I don't mean "free server transfers" either. That doesn't work because it relies on the players to equalize the population when they have other priorities. What they would have to do is to literally forcibly move people on or off the server arbitrarily every few months. That's not a good solution.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Snoodmaster

[Meldwyn]

This is the solution and the only solution. Increased population per server will fix the problem. Cross server LFG is a red herring.

 

I don't see it this way at all. Merging servers, limiting the number of servers, etc... will solve issues, for sure. But, having a cross server LFG tool also helps with seeing long forgotten content (lower level fp's) because the leveling bubble on any given server, once the initial bubble has passed, will never be big enough again for folks to group quickly and easily. At max level, a packed server will certainly help with HM's or max content, but it does very little for lower level content.

 

I also don't agree with the completely over generalization of "instant gratification" slam on people who don't agree with you. Just because people want to enjoy all the content of this particular game, doesn't make them some selfish, childish, over stimulated group of individuals. I find these comments rather silly, really.

[Valkirus]

Last time my dps logged into the LFG in Wow, the wait time was 45 minutes. If you tried for a less popular dungeon you could see wait times of 2 to 3 hours.

 

LFG is not the panacea that people claim it will be. It has more negatives then positives and the positives do not solve the problems that people believe it will. Most that want it are seeking instant gratification and not looking beyond their noses.

 

Odd...I cannot remember the last time I had 45 mins in que as a dps for a dungeon run in WoW using the LFG tool. Last time I did it ( which was a few days ago )...the wait was like 15 mins. Even using the Looking for Raid tool as dps, ( which I did one with some guildies as all dps last night ) the wait is usually around 15 -20 mins. Now a long time ago..in WOTLK, there was long wait times. 45 mins was not too uncommon. Not the case now tho.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Valkirus

[Valkirus]

To many pages to read, what were the response to the anti-xserver to "don't use it then"?

 

the **** is this community you are talking about? Hanging at the terminals and mailboxes spamming /1 for hours or sending random people /tells if they want to join a group where 3/4 of them don't even respond?

 

They like to ignore those. Logical points seem to not matter, they keep bringing up this "will ruin the community" argument. When what is going to happen is, a lack of a way for the casual player to get to experence the end game content in a timely manner will lead to the ruin of TOR. Not saying it is going to die, but if Bioware is content on it basically having the hardcores left playing the game, then so be it.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Valkirus

[Valkirus]

They can still meet people the same way they do now. They can still post in trade/general for anyone willing to run to queue with them. They can still make friends while questing or doing heroic missions. They can still join guilds and run with those guilds. Nothing about adding an option cross-server LFG tool prevents them from doing so.

 

 

 

It's not that we don't want server merges. It's that server merges will not work. See, server populations are dynamic. A high pop server today might lose subscribers for whatever reason and become a low pop server in a few months. A low pop server might gain a few and become high pop. The whole game might gain or lose subscribers and alter the server balance.

 

Leaving aside the inherent problems of trying to get the perfect balance of players with a server merge and the issue of investor confidence, let's say that Bioware DOES do a server merge. They manage to get it just right and get everyone into 10 servers with each having the population of The Fatman. What happens two months down the road when subscription numbers go up and they have 3million subscribers? What happens if one of those servers is the unofficial "Brazilian" server and then they decide to put in real Latin American servers? If you try to use server merges as a bandaid for the long term fix of equalizing the play experience across multiple server populations, Bioware will end up having to do server merges/transfers/etc every few months just to keep up with the ebb and flow of the game's population.

 

And I don't mean "free server transfers" either. That doesn't work because it relies on the players to equalize the population when they have other priorities. What they would have to do is to literally forcibly move people on or off the server arbitrarily every few months. That's not a good solution.

 

Excellent and logical post. If we can get everyone to read it all, there are some very valid points you make in it about server merging problems.

[chaosdefined]

Will you accept that proof when I link the thread post? Or will it be denied as not viable, even though it is from these very forums? I ask, because I would really hate to waste my time on getting even more proof (as I have before) and just having it waylaid or dismissed even when it is stated in print (well like other evidence I posted that disappeared).

 

When you actually link some proof, then we'll talk. And that doesn't mean a video of the top guilds who will never use the LFD tool cheering for it's limited capability.

[DarthKhaos]

Even with the X-Server LFD in WoW, people still ask around for pugs for 5-mans in the Trade chat to success.

 

It is an option, you can still pug server side if you want. You are the one deciding you don't have the option, not us.

They can still meet people the same way they do now. They can still post in trade/general for anyone willing to run to queue with them. They can still make friends while questing or doing heroic missions. They can still join guilds and run with those guilds. Nothing about adding an option cross-server LFG tool prevents them from doing so.

But this is the thing. I've never advocated spamming chat for a group. So I don't get why you guys keep bringing that option up to me.

Edited April 6, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[chaosdefined]

But this is the thing. I've never advocated spamming chat for a group. So I don't get why you guys keep bringing that option up to me.

 

So exactly how do you get a group currently?

[Snoodmaster]

But this is the thing. I've never advocated spamming chat for a group. So I don't get why you guys keep bringing that option up to me.

 

We're trying to figure out why you believe that a cross-server LFG would limit your ability to meet people.

 

Your stated concerns have been that if LFG is cross-server, then the people you meet in LFG will be on other servers, so you won't be able to group up and hang out with them later on after the run is over.

 

We're saying that you can still have those sorts of groups if you do the same things people are doing now. I.E. form the group (or part of the group) on the server before running the flashpoint. As I see it, you have the same ability to meet people and make connections after the addition of an optional tool as you do before it.

[LeonBraun]

Single server dungeon finder will be in 1.3.

 

I agree totally with 1 and 2, and that process of looking for a group should be automated.

 

For 3 however, if you have CROSS SERVER dungeon finder, vote kicking from groups will happen more frequently, due to no consequences. All manner of disruptive behavior will happen because they are from another server and they don't suffer any consequences.

 

This. ^^

 

No way a cross server LFG is needed... In fact a cross server LFG is no different than playing the game solo.

 

At the end of a cross server LFG group, you come away with no new friends and in fact, TIME AWAY from the people on your own server... This is not good.

 

A server LFG could mean people could still go out, queue up and do stuff, and then group and walk away with some new friends, possibly new guildies after a server LFG.