A Request for Raid-Wide Combat Logs

[Starlinkk]

we need a public combat log for a good raid!

[MaverickXIV]

Another thread with people talking about griefing as an excuse to not have public combat logs.

 

Have any of you advocating against public logging ever cleared relevant content? The answer is probably no. Stop taking away from the people who want to excel.

Actually, I was a hardcore raider in WoW. I've also just played casually and am also an adult. So, naturally, I'm against public combat logs.

[Squatdog_nz]

So you agree that there is a reason, but you disagree with it? Which is what I said?

 

Cool.

 

THAT'S your 'actual reason'????

 

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

 

 

Unreal.

[Wugan]

In response to concerns of "your guild can just make everyone do it" I would say yes, our guild will clearly have to do that, and so will other guilds focused on progression. I will also tell you that it's not fun to manage people on that level. Playing the game is fun; managing details is something we do so we can play the game. This is something that will probably be lost on anyone who has never tried to run a progression guild. One person out of 16 forgets to turn the log on, uploads the wrong night, etc and now you have incomplete data. It's unnecessary administrative hassle, and it will happen. If we are able to live-capture data from every log, that is great, but I still expect that there are going to be some gaps and I wonder why we need to go through all that hassle.

 

If there is a technical issue with providing raid-wide combat logs (which I doubt), it's one that should be addressed quickly, since that other game has been able to do this for years.

 

People arguing against raid-wide combat logs in terms of elitism seem confused. On the one hand, some seem concerned that information will show them to be performing poorly. Those people should welcome the information as a great tool to play better (or else just not care at all if they don't focus on that aspect of the game). If you want to raid without caring about your performance, you're probably not part of a raid that will be using combat logs in any form. A good raid leader already knows if you are playing poorly; a raid-wide combat log would help him more easily see how you can play better.

 

Others are concerned that the information will be misused as a way to make it look as though they should be performing better than they are. Those people should welcome the information as a way to refute the uninformed, since a great combat log parser will show when you were healing, moving out of fire, killing the most important target, etc. to help the team instead of just focusing on your numbers. A bad raid leader is already no fun to play with; someone abusing a raid-wide combat log would make that more obvious and motivate you to find a better group.

[JPLaro]

THAT'S your 'actual reason'????

 

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

 

 

Unreal.

 

Bahahahahaha I laught at your face!

[Lunchmunny]

I'm curious why the fear is that one will be discriminated against with the presence of combat logs as opposed to seeing them as an opportunity to improve one's game play. I ask because when I first started playing mmo's appx 8 years ago, I would never have gotten better than spam clicking abilities I felt looked cool without someone pointing out combat logs to me and explaining how they could be used to improve.

 

What did I care about an ability like sunder armor as a dmg dealing warrior? Or perhaps curse of shadows as a warlock. Sure the ability said basically it would improve my damage, but without seeing it first hand I would never have realized exactly how much an improvement it would be.

 

If effective combat logs were in game, then "hardcores" would develop the tools that "casuals" could use easily to decide what the best upgrade is for them. I would prefer combat logs ESPECIALLY if I was raiding casually simply because it would help me improve my game play much faster than just playing around with my rotations constantly in game. I look at them as a time saver to improvement rather than a discriminatory tool.

 

Another thing that I find kind of inconsistent as far as the anti combat log/parse crowd goes; People say "So I can participate too, I don't want my fun ruined by someone saying I'm not doing my job." However, if you can have a tool telling you that you are NOT in fact doing your job. Do you think it's fair that within a particular flashpoint someone is basically afk on the phone with whoever the entire time, and hoping 3 other people paying their subscription as well, are going to kill stuff for you so you can get loot? I don't think this happens all the time, but within the context of an mmo, it DOES happen.

 

TL:DR Combat logs and parses help everyone improve, and I don't think that hurts anyone either.

[roguebill]

I still haven't seen an answer to why we would need a public log when the personal ones can be released for the raid leader of your"hardcore" raiding guild?

[DawnAskham]

Actually, I was a hardcore raider in WoW. I've also just played casually and am also an adult. So, naturally, I'm against public combat logs.

 

I've done all of those things and am also an adult. So naturally, I'm for public combat logs.

 

Then again, I feel people who are adamantly against combat logs are either afraid their performance won't measure up, or know it won't measure up, and don't want to have to put forth any effort to improve.

 

Anyone who is committed to playing at their best and / or has a desire to improve their play, and that of their group, should be all for easy to use and complete in-game combat logs.

Edited April 2, 2012 by DawnAskham

[Wugan]

I still haven't seen an answer to why we would need a public log when the personal ones can be released for the raid leader of your"hardcore" raiding guild?

 

I have given several answers, as have others. I think what you mean is you haven't seen an answer you agree with.

 

- Managing a group of 16 people to upload something out of game is not fun; it's an unnecessary administrative hassle given that raid-wide logs are possible;

 

- individual logs may miss raid-wide events and boss abilities;

 

- even well-meaning, reliable raiders will forget to upload a log, upload the wrong night, or upload a log a day or two later than we'd like, all of which can be avoided by a raid-wide log.

 

Basically, given that raid-wide logs are quite possible in other MMOs, I think the burden is on people to argue for individual logs instead.

[Talorra]

I still haven't seen an answer to why we would need a public log when the personal ones can be released for the raid leader of your"hardcore" raiding guild?

 

Because as it stands now, I or Wugan or any other officer in our guild has to request logs from the other 15 players who were in the raid. Assuming each player remembered to turn the logs on in the first place, they now have to find the correct log and email it to us or upload it to our site. Now, with all 16 logs in hand, we have to plug each one into a parser and look through the data.

 

This is an extremely inefficient use of time all around. We have one night between our Tuesday and Thursday raids to look through data, assuming everyone gets their logs in immediately after the raid. What if someone has an emergency and has to leave early, and we bring someone else in to fill their spot, and they don't get their logs in until a day or more later? Incomplete data. Any number of things could come up, leaving us with an incomplete picture of the raid night and unreliable information to work with.

 

A single, all encompassing log fixes this. Everyone has it. Anyone in the raid can take it and load it and we have a complete picture of the night's raids.

[MaverickXIV]

Basically, given that raid-wide logs are quite possible in other MMOs, I think the burden is on people to argue for individual logs instead.

Well, you'd be wrong. Since the current implementation and opinion of BioWare is one of individual logs, the burden is on you.

 

You've also conveniently ignored the fact that tools are being developed which will consolidate logs automatically.

[Hxxr]

He did give some fair arguments despite everything, which you didn't.

 

And then you tell people they can put the logs together with a program ... how exactly does that solve the problems described by the posts above? Do people can forget to upload their data because of those tools? Can you just open one file without having to check whether the 16 different ones actually fit together? I don't think so.

[Tahana]

Yes, and we'll gladly use them. But I don't look forward to making sure all 16 people get them promptly uploaded after each raid. We can do it, but simply giving us all the information would be easier and I'm willing to bet more effective.

 

If they are part of your guild, there is incentive that can be utilized to ensure proper upload.. You upload it, or loose your raid slot. It isn't anymore difficult than that.

[Wugan]

Well, you'd be wrong. Since the current implementation and opinion of BioWare is one of individual logs, the burden is on you.

 

You've also conveniently ignored the fact that tools are being developed which will consolidate logs automatically.

 

Selective cutting and pasting is awesome. Obviously I realize that Bioware needs to be convinced that they should do raid-wide logs, or I wouldn't have spent so much time this afternoon making and responding to this post.

 

I have also not ignored the tools being developed to consolidate logs. My second point above references limitations from cobbling together a bunch of individual logs. In the current format, my understanding (and I'm not someone who has the technical skills to parse logs) is that boss events or abilities are often not captured by ANYONE in the raid, since they may not be happening to a particular person. A raid-wide log elegantly solves that limitation, in addition to addressing all the other administrative issues and parsing work-arounds.

 

I am very confident that anyone developing a tool to combine multiple logs would much rather spend that free time improving the ability of their parser to display information from a raid-wide log. They work around because they must, not because it's a good idea to give us limited information.

[pyrobot]

There are a variety of problems which are stemming from Bioware choosing to protect unskilled players at the expense of skilled players. This problem with logs is just one example of the absurdity of the assumptions unpinning these decisions.

 

Assumption: Our game is casual and we want to protect casual players against the predations of the hardcore players.

 

Example: PvP queing resulting in random outcomes due to not being allowed to play with a full team of friends with a proper PvP composition. Right now there is no pride to be taken from winning or losing warzones, the devs have the tech to allow people to que together but they do not want full teams to WIN too much. This is laughable because the PvP game has the facade of being a competition. It simply isn't. This bioware assumption of protection is underminding the games development by failing to reveal what the best players can do with it, and how they can break it.

 

Example: Combat logs: they didn't want them in order to protect players, but here they put them in the game in a broken and limited iteration. Guilds like mine are GOING to use those logs no matter how hard BW tries to make it. Once again this assumption is being proven to be a very dumb idea. Once we parse these things together and get all the info we need to play the game as a hardcore player is intent upon doing BW will simply have to release the log info. What a frustrating waste my of time by BW.

 

In a nutshell, Bioware needs to quit protecting players from normal human nature and allow us to help them grow their game. The casuals do not grow a game they pay for it, the hardcore people are the ones that develop the future of the game. What is SWTOR going to be in 3 years of "protecting" the casuals as opposed to letting the hardcore players push SWTOR into a more advanced state?

 

 

It doesn't matter, because now they can't protect casuals at all anymore. Because people are going to say, "Upload your combat log after we down a boss." and someone is going to say "no," then get kicked, or put up their log and maybe get kicked for under performing. BioWare cannot protect players forever, because the hardcores are always going to find a way to maximize performance and single out players who aren't doing as well as they should be. I just don't see what the issue is.

 

If you suck, then you suck, quit taking part in group content or get better.

[MaverickXIV]

It doesn't matter, because now they can't protect casuals at all anymore. Because people are going to say, "Upload your combat log after we down a boss." and someone is going to say "no," then get kicked, or put up their log and maybe get kicked for under performing. BioWare cannot protect players forever, because the hardcores are always going to find a way to maximize performance and single out players who aren't doing as well as they should be. I just don't see what the issue is.

 

If you suck, then you suck, quit taking part in group content or get better.

The harder it is to get the information, the more unlikely someone will be to require it. Will there be die-hards who will still require a log in a PUG? Sure. Will the hassle of it all cause some to not bother who otherwise would? Yes.

 

Therefore it is worth it.

[Jebei]

My solution would be to give immediate raid wide information if 90% of the group is from the same guild. If it is less then either release the information on a delay or just stick with the current method of individual reporting.

 

- I know from WoW experience that raid logs as they exist in that game can feel a bit like a second job. Anything that Bioware can do to make that process easier for progression guilds only helps the game. For that reason alone they need combined raid logs for guilds.

 

- I know from WoW experience that Recount turned pugs into e-peen contests. Limiting information for pugs is also definitely in the games interest.

 

Anything Bioware can do to make both happen is ideal. They are definitely on the right track so far and the system only needs a few tweaks.

[Ginnai]

So, its certainly possible to get raid stats with the current logging system. I have working real time raid meters. Here's a sample screenshot:

 

http://memoriesofxendor.com/image/SWTOR_raid_meter_01.jpg

 

I'm still working out some bugs (if you notice there's one person missing in that screenshot), but for the most part its working the way I want. I'm currently tracking damage dealt/received and healing done/received. I plan on adding threat meters although that's a bit trickier. If there's interest in this I can make my solution public, but for now I'd like to keep tweaking it while 1.2 content is on the test server. Let me know if anyone has any thoughts or questions.

[TyrantLeader]

So, its certainly possible to get raid stats with the current logging system. I have working real time raid meters. Here's a sample screenshot:

 

http://memoriesofxendor.com/image/SWTOR_raid_meter_01.jpg

 

I'm still working out some bugs (if you notice there's one person missing in that screenshot), but for the most part its working the way I want. I'm currently tracking damage dealt/received and healing done/received. I plan on adding threat meters although that's a bit trickier. If there's interest in this I can make my solution public, but for now I'd like to keep tweaking it while 1.2 content is on the test server. Let me know if anyone has any thoughts or questions.

 

Is that using live data or previous attempt? how do you get 8 files synched to compile data live?

[Ealhdun]

My solution would be to give immediate raid wide information if 90% of the group is from the same guild. If it is less then either release the information on a delay or just stick with the current method of individual reporting.

 

IMO raid wide combatlogs should always be delayed, else you are just making the coding of bots way to easy.

 

 

- I know from WoW experience that raid logs as they exist in that game can feel a bit like a second job. Anything that Bioware can do to make that process easier for progression guilds only helps the game. For that reason alone they need combined raid logs for guilds.

You either enjoy the number crunching or you don't, if you enjoy it then you don't mind it. If you don't and it feels like a second job then don't do it.

 

 

- I know from WoW experience that Recount turned pugs into e-peen contests. Limiting information for pugs is also definitely in the games interest.

Which is what they did by restricting the information to just about you rather than the entire group. It isn't that hard to write a lightweight client that automatically transfers logs to a main server.

 

Anything Bioware can do to make both happen is ideal. They are definitely on the right track so far and the system only needs a few tweaks.

Except for apparently certain boss attacks/heals/spawns/whatever it seems all information can be obtained by parsing multiple logs, petition for the things currently omitted to be included to all logs and it becomes incredibly easy for guilds to have what they want while making it virtually impossible for a pug.

[sensiblepoast]

No.

 

Request denied.

[Ginnai]

Is that using live data or previous attempt? how do you get 8 files synched to compile data live?

 

That is live/realtime data (updates about every 1-2 seconds). I'm running a client app on each person's machine and syncing to a back-end database (that's the short answer).

[TyrantLeader]

That is live/realtime data (updates about every 1-2 seconds). I'm running a client app on each person's machine and syncing to a back-end database (that's the short answer).

 

ah nice. not sure about how many people will trust to do that. certainly won't get me to install something like that but nice app.

[Ginnai]

ah nice. not sure about how many people will trust to do that. certainly won't get me to install something like that but nice app.

 

Yeah, understandable. There's no install or anything writing to the registry, but it does require running an executable. My guild will be using it, but no idea if there would be any broader interest in it.

[MaverickXIV]

ah nice. not sure about how many people will trust to do that. certainly won't get me to install something like that but nice app.

Do you use Ventrilo, Teamspeak, Mumble, Skype, etc...?

 

 

Yeah, understandable. There's no install or anything writing to the registry, but it does require running an executable. My guild will be using it, but no idea if there would be any broader interest in it.

I think a lot of people would want to use it. I was going to make something very similar for fun, but since I'm sort of in the party that wants to limit meters, I felt it would probably seem pretty contradictory. Edited April 2, 2012 by MaverickXIV