Skill Curve From WoW To TOR

[theangryllama]

swtor pvp is definitely friendlier to those at the lower levels however looking at it from a broad perspective it has certainly not hit its stride.

 

Once people can start queuing as full premades, the meta gaming that will be possible in term s of class synergys and strategys will far eclipse anything WoW has in the 3v3 arena system now (emphasis on now... it was fantastic but cataclysm dropped the ball)

 

I really really want to see high level huttball personally. I feel the teamwork needed with 2 good teams and all the subtle positioning and fighting skirmishes to set up/block pass lines or sorc pulls etc will be astounding

[theangryllama]

Err arena is pretty darn competitive and real money prizes are giving to the top teams and they are not always the same comps. http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/5v5/ shows a good variance of classes so I don't know how you can say ' you would just have 5v5 of the most OP'd classes'

 

At least give blizzard credit where credit is due in creating an e-sport within the mmo genre.

 

Actually http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/ is what everything is balanced on.... and i'm seeing a lot of the same thing over and over and over again

As i said in an earlier post cata killed their attempt at an e-sport (we can't balance these small scale battles properly so we're just gonna say screw it and tell em we're balancing around the large battles of RBGS) and their attempt at an e-sport killed the fun pvp

[Slurmez]

I never played WoW but PvP here is idiot mode, really is taking cues from the pick up and roll free to play games out there.

 

One stat per class, heal gear = dps gear, crit is universal as opposed to ranged/melee/heal

 

Theres no planning or structuring or even builds to do what others cant

 

All gear is free and super easy to get

 

Thats not to say I dont enjoy it at times because I do just I cant see any longevity in it, I cant make my character my own with a unique approach or build because its locked in

 

In warhammer before Carrie, queen of the sea cows, killed it I ran a high parry witch hunter build with flowing accusations and sanctified bullets, most other WHs were glass cannons but mine was a duelist and I miss the aspect of being able to think about roles

[mangarrage]

Well youre biggest mistake is using the word skill for this game or wow

 

People really have to realize these games are simple to play.

wow is completely imbalanced pvp

 

This game, although 3 types are still not right, is a lot better of a playing field

 

But please call it a learning curve not a skill curve

[Cwild]

This game is 100% more easy to play in pvp then wow.

 

If they implemented an arena system we would know for sure, but I am still convinced it would be easier.

 

 

I played a warlock for a long time in wow, getting up for 2650 in 3's and like was number 1 in the world in s5 in 2's at like 2550. The amount of things you had to know in wow compared to this game is much higher. There are no real strategies in this game...it's simply "don't fill his resolve yet"

 

Easy game.

[Cempa]

Well youre biggest mistake is using the word skill for this game or wow

 

People really have to realize these games are simple to play.

wow is completely imbalanced pvp

 

This game, although 3 types are still not right, is a lot better of a playing field

 

But please call it a learning curve not a skill curve

 

I used skill curve because tiers of competences are required to function.

 

For example, as a melee player the basic skill of being able to stick to your target is needed. Any one new to MMO's -like some of those currently paying this game- need to develop that basic skill.

 

Another skill or competence is problem solving, communication and so on.

 

WoW arena and higher level PvP has people who have been honing these skills for years.

 

The fact of the matter is only a small percentage ever get to see the hardest PvE content before its nurfed or reach Gladiator even though the general consensus is no skill is required.

 

I have seen live streams and youtube clips of some of the best Warlocks playing today and I will never be able to do what they do in PvP, I tried, I can't.

 

With 10 million people playing WoW, I guess I am among the majority of those who will never be able to do what the +2400 crowd do!

Edited March 30, 2012 by Cempa

[biowareftw]

I started a thread on mmo-champion.com regarding how steep is the skill curve to play top level PvP in WoW/Rift/TOR. Curious to read what people have to say on it.

 

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1106836-Excellent-At-Rift-Star-Wars-But-Struggle-At-WoW-Why

 

"I have been playing WoW since day 1 as a Warlock though I left the game about a year ago because I struggled at PvP. During that year I played Rift and Star Wars -Mage and Sorcerer- both of which I am excellent at in solo play and group play.

 

Is the skill curve much steeper for WoW Warlock than Rift Mage or Star Wars Sorcerer?"

 

Sentinel/Marauder and Slinger Sniper are probably harder then current WoW classes.

 

Sage/sorc is = to vanilla shadowpriest before we had gaming mice. Basically the class is a joke to play and master. It needs to be harder to play.

 

Guardian/Jug is prob = to current arms warrior. They are fine as far as difficulty.

 

Commando/Merc is like a vanilla huntard. Too easy to play.

 

Vanguard/PT Pyro/AS is like a ret paladin when they were LOLret and before they got a harder rotation.

 

Shadow/Sin is a dumbed down simplified rogue/blooddk. I have no freakin clue how people can't be good at this class. It is easier then any melee to play in WoW by FAR.

 

Op/scoundrel is like a current sub rogue but with less skill needed (no shiv/disarm). It is fine as far as difficulty, maybe they could give them a disarm/shadowstep/smokebomb like talent and just kill healing on the dps spec. Healing as a melee dps is stupid anyways. All you do is screw yourself out of stealth and self kite yourself from a kill target. The ONLY "fun" rogue type class in this ame.

 

Healer commando/merc = Vanilla holy paladin. Derp.

 

Heal sage/sorc is a dumbed down disc priest.

 

Healing op/scoundrel is how hard a healing spec should be to play. Bout same as current WoW healer.

 

People who argue the above statements are full of it and or never played multiple classes in this game or just can't handle that they play classes that could be played by little kids. But yeah if you think the game is faceroll, you are prob playing one of the above faceroll classes. This CAN be fixed. Easy mode classes in WoW got harder rotations. Hunter is prob the hardest class to master in current WoW, and was one of the easiest in vanilla.

[Orangerascal]

Actually http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/ is what everything is balanced on.... and i'm seeing a lot of the same thing over and over and over again

As i said in an earlier post cata killed their attempt at an e-sport (we can't balance these small scale battles properly so we're just gonna say screw it and tell em we're balancing around the large battles of RBGS) and their attempt at an e-sport killed the fun pvp

 

err ... please follow the thread dialogue before replying, I've quoted the 5v5 arena rating page, because the person I quoted talked about 5v5. Hence the context was 5v5. The clue was when I quoted: 'you would just have 5v5 of the most OP'd classes''

 

I've also talked about 3v3 later and said there was a lot of variance in the comps above 2500. There is an obvious skew with warlocks this season, but I'm sure that will be addressed. Asking for a perfectly balanced mmo is impossible because of the dynamic nature of class balancing.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Orangerascal

[ImpressiveSir]

I miss Shadowbane

[fungihoujo]

Mods and macros made WoW pvp exceptionally easy to manage. Healing was a breeze too- as a healer, it was virtually impossible to die 1v1 against any dps- that is one thing that is absolutely not the case in this game. Another thing is, WoW was much less mobile- to use healers again, in this game surviving as a healer means moving in this game- in WoW, it means standing still and healing yourself.

[fungihoujo]

This game is 100% more easy to play in pvp then wow.

 

If they implemented an arena system we would know for sure, but I am still convinced it would be easier.

 

 

I played a warlock for a long time in wow, getting up for 2650 in 3's and like was number 1 in the world in s5 in 2's at like 2550. The amount of things you had to know in wow compared to this game is much higher. There are no real strategies in this game...it's simply "don't fill his resolve yet"

 

Easy game.

 

Let us know when you're number one rated in TOR's rated WZ then.

[Ruckari]

All WoW is is Macros and Add-ons

 

Its not even skill now, its just, Robot Robot Robot.

 

No thinking needed

[Marlayoutourist]

Well youre biggest mistake is using the word skill for this game or wow

 

People really have to realize these games are simple to play.

wow is completely imbalanced pvp

 

This game, although 3 types are still not right, is a lot better of a playing field

 

But please call it a learning curve not a skill curve

 

So what if the game is simple, there's still mirrors and equivalent gear, at some point when everything is equal the advantage boils down to skill and rng

[Darth_Philar]

So what if the game is simple, there's still mirrors and equivalent gear, at some point when everything is equal the advantage boils down to skill and rng

 

It is never always equal since they come out with new tiers of gear at regular intervals. This gives a huge statistical advantage to those who simply have more time to commit to obtaining the new gear.

 

It's a numbers game, not a skill matchup.

[Audenlol]

Safe to say that those bashin arena as "skill less" were playing at a level where any real class imbalance was not really an issue.

 

The issue was they sucked at pvp but where able to hide in the mediocrity of pug battlegrounds. Just like how they Hide their bad play in wzs because the outcome does not mean a damn thing.

[Audenlol]

All WoW is is Macros and Add-ons

 

Its not even skill now, its just, Robot Robot Robot.

 

No thinking needed

 

Not a surprise you have zero idea what you are talking about.

 

Considering in mlg play they use zero addons and at most a focus cast macro. But you probably do not know what that is lol.

[Garbald]

People can criticize WoW all they like, but "deep combat" is something WoW has succeeded at better than anyone else.

 

There was a noticeable and measurable difference between plain good, and really good players.

 

Not really, there are multiple games that have far deeper combat then wow ever had.

Wow is not a bad game, don´t get me wrong but to say it has the deepest combat of all mmos either means you have not much experience outside the mainstream "newer" mmos or you think because of arenas wow must be the deepest.

 

Daoc both in 1vs1 and 8vs8 combat with its hard interrupt system, style chains, additional side styles was far more skill based for example then wow.

 

Vanguard with its vulnerability system also had a lot more complex fighting...

 

Then there are a lot of "aim yourself" mmos which also are a lot more skill based

 

Wow is the most skill based of the wow clone mmos however I give it that.

Rift with its "you can bind everything you ever need to 4 buttons" is not even a contender.

Tor... I can´t really put my finger on it why I feel its so easy, maybe because there are very few conditional abilties, no style chains... I don´t know.

So of the three mmos named by the op its def wow > tor >> rift imo

Edited March 30, 2012 by Garbald

[mangarrage]

yea daoc was the golden age

I have no idea why people think hitting macros or playing op classes is skill based

[anwg]

First of all, the sorcerer isn't like warlock (I quit before Wrath btw), they are more like priests. So it just might suit you better.

 

Second, SWTOR is still relatively new, so overall skill level isn't going to be a match for WoW's, leading to relatively better performance.

[Marlayoutourist]

Not really, there are multiple games that have far deeper combat then wow ever had.

Wow is not a bad game, don´t get me wrong but to say it has the deepest combat of all mmos either means you have not much experience outside the mainstream "newer" mmos or you think because of arenas wow must be the deepest.

 

Daoc both in 1vs1 and 8vs8 combat with its hard interrupt system, style chains, additional side styles was far more skill based for example then wow.

 

Vanguard with its vulnerability system also had a lot more complex fighting...

 

Then there are a lot of "aim yourself" mmos which also are a lot more skill based

 

Wow is the most skill based of the wow clone mmos however I give it that.

Rift with its "you can bind everything you ever need to 4 buttons" is not even a contender.

Tor... I can´t really put my finger on it why I feel its so easy, maybe because there are very few conditional abilties, no style chains... I don´t know.

So of the three mmos named by the op its def wow > tor >> rift imo

 

 

Why does nobody ever remember that DOAC had /face and /follow. WoW has a higher skill curve, but the lack of macroing in TOR makes the pvp seem at least as challenging in a different way. I think its totally lame that TOR sells a macroing gaming mouse and keyboard but shuns the idea of implementing them in game. Just another way to grab some money I guess.

 

Wow had different GCDs, and a more fluid, faster usage rate of abilities. TOR seems to be going with a slower, less DPS, "choose the right move at the right time on your single target" style. I don't find myself wondering where my focus target is or feeling totally ruined because one of curses addons is not up to date with the lasted patch yet.

 

My biggest concern for Rated WZ is for a class like the sniper in a game of hutball. If your server is like mine, where hutball pops 65% of the time, are you really going to take a sniper over an inquiz when your primary objective is to move the ball across the map?

 

Watch some old wow arena videos, like Tosantwos, the Renataki Twins. That rogue/rogue arena video was simply dope. I've watched a bunch of TOR pvp videos, nothing in TOR comes close to the amount of micro managing abilities and target switching that occurred in in that video. But that was a more polished game at the time, maybe were in for a surprise.

[AkaTheBest]

Guild Wars 1 PvP is the only pvp that actually requires thinking/good teamwork

 

No other MMO has pvp like Guild Wars 1 that i know of

 

To me WoW and ToR pvp is extremely easy and anyone can jump in and do it

 

In Guild Wars if you jump in you will most likely get stomped for a month until you figure **** out

 

Also Monking in GW takes a ton more skill than any MMO I know because you have to watch the field such as using guardian on someone which gives them 50% chance to block for 6 or so seconds when a warrior is about to spike them with his team

 

If you had fail monks in gw your whole team would be fail basically

Edited March 30, 2012 by AkaTheBest

[Garbald]

Why does nobody ever remember that DOAC had /face and /follow.

 

Well /face was pretty much needed because the range is completely different, long range in tor and wow is medium to low range in daoc at these ranges it was possible to overlook your assailant especially if it was some of the small folk (luri, kboboldm inconnu) hiding in a bush ^^, so to have meeles not at a total disadvantage this was absolutely needed.

 

Secondly /follow or /stick its main use was pretty much for sticking the group leader during travel time, if you used it for combat in the higher tier gameplay... well you could easily be kited with running circles etc so its use was very limited. In 1vs1 combat if you stick you will be destroyed by any competent player.

So I don´t really see why these two points could be an argument against higher level combat in daoc.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Garbald

[Halifax]

All WoW is is Macros and Add-ons

 

Its not even skill now, its just, Robot Robot Robot.

 

No thinking needed

 

I hear this comment/complaint often, but its always by those who still can't break into mildly competitive ratings in arenas.

[Stovokor]

err ... please follow the thread dialogue before replying, I've quoted the 5v5 arena rating page, because the person I quoted talked about 5v5. Hence the context was 5v5. The clue was when I quoted: 'you would just have 5v5 of the most OP'd classes''

 

I've also talked about 3v3 later and said there was a lot of variance in the comps above 2500. There is an obvious skew with warlocks this season, but I'm sure that will be addressed. Asking for a perfectly balanced mmo is impossible because of the dynamic nature of class balancing.

 

LOL variance ?? From that 3 vs 3 page, there is obviously heavy skew as per the normal Blizzard way. Even casually looking at that top 15 list Its obvious.

 

Filter by All Region ( 3 vs 3 ) :

Rogue / Shaman / Warlock : Running exact same comp 6 of the 15 .... damn

Number of teams with Shaman + Warlock : 7 of 15

Number of teams without either a Rogue / Shaman / Warlock : 1 of 15 Wohoo

Number of Warriors in top fifteen : 0

 

Filter by US region ( 3 vs 3 ) :

Guess what all top 4 teams are .....

Rogue / Shaman / Warlock .... : All top 4 teams haha

Number of teams without either a Rogue / Shaman / Warlock : 1 of 15

Number of Top 8 teams with warlock : ALL of them

Number of Warriors in top fifteen : 0

 

ps. Regarding the "I'm sure it will be addressed comment " This is a recurring cycle of musical chairs from Blizzard.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Stovokor

[Dracosz]

Innate PvP skills (situational awareness, positioning and communication) are all pertinent in ToR. For most, that's the gap that has to be breached in order to succeed at PvP (Rated Warzones will undoubtedly highlight the importance of these traits).

 

Gear in SWTOR is also on relatively even footing in that there is no major disparty beyond those that min-max and those that do not. There are SOME breaches (such as the 2 pc set bonus for PvE for ops/BHs) but not major enough to create a huge disparity.

 

The biggest thing in ToR is the lack of macros and subsequently a very clunky and difficult to manage system for focus. Focus in ToR exists, but the lack of macros forces players to add a modifier that is not already shift-alt-ctrl which, on an already cluttered keyboard, leads to many issues (I rebound my windows key as / to help, but it's still a bit of a pain). There needs to be a way to directly bind abilities as focus abilities, as it stands though, I don't see that happening anytime soon.