1.2 Merc Arsenal Numbers?

[Ifrit]

UPDATED: People pointed out my math error, but I am leaving these numbers here so people understand my mistake and can follow the thread properly. I updated some numbers below and it doesn't look like the nerf is as bad as I first thought.

 

So I am not on PTS, but I am doing some quick numbers and it seems to me like we are getting nailed by the nerf bat. I hope someone has PTS info to get rid of all these terrible numbers running around my head If someone on PTS has numbers/video to counter my argument that would be great! But as it is now, I think we will be a useless pvp class without an interrupt and mediocre dps. Below are some numbers that are not exact, but estimates and demonstrate the damage nerf we are getting. I am not adding the dmg for railshot/unload, or the de/buffs because they are not changing.

 

Current Pre 1.2 estimates

Tracer missile = 1850 dmg @ "1.5" sec cast for 25 heat (1233 dps)

Heat Seaker = 1900 dmg

 

 

Post 1.2 estimates

TM = 1665 @ 2 seconds (1859 x .9) (832 dps)

HSM = 2090 (1900 x 1.1)

 

TM decrease in dps = 32% [(1233-832)/1233]

 

"Burst" Rotation pre 1.2

TM x 3 = 5550 (1850 x 3) in 4.5 seconds

HSM = 1900 dmg in .5 seconds

Total = 7450 dmg in ~ 5 seconds.

DPS = 1490 dps

 

"Burst" Rotation post 1.2

TM x 3 = 4995 (1665 x 3) in 6 seconds

HSM = 2090 in .5 seconds

Total = 7085 dmg in ~ 6.5 seconds

DPS = 1,181 dps

 

pre vs post difference = 20% !!!! [(1490-1181)/1490]

 

So that is a huge difference, and I get they are trying to make us use Unload more. Lets throw unload and rail shot in the mix. I will not add unload/rail shot dmg in because it isn't changing, but I will build up 5 TM stacks for max rail shot dmg.

 

"Full" Rotation pre 1.2

TM x 3 = 5550 in 4.5 s

HSM = 1900 dmg in .5 s

*unload*

TM x 2 = 3700 in 3 s

*rail shot*

~Total dmg = 11,100 dmg in "8" s

~Total dps = 1387

 

"Full" Rotation post 1.2

TM x 3 = 4995 (1665 x 3) in 6 seconds

HSM = 2090 in .5 seconds

*unload*

TM x 2 = 3330 in 4 s

*rail shot*

~Total = 10,385 in 10.5 s

~Total dps = 989

 

Total Difference = 28% !!!! [(1387-989)/1387]

 

So if we look at Unload as of now, it does approximately 1250 dps, and with Barrage it goes up to about 1550 dps which is great! However, we still need to work the above rotation(s) into to get our biggest 2 hitting abilities which we need to kill healers without an interrupt. We will be forced to use the drastically decreased dps into our rotations.

 

If I did my math wrong please let me know and I will fix it.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Ifrit

[Ocili]

You forgot that the talent change brings TM back down to 1.5 sec cast. So its only downfall is a 10% dmg nerf with no increased cast time. We picked up the talent before, we will pick it up again.

[Niconogood]

Yeah, definitely change the casttime of TM back to 1,5 sec. I fear it will still not remedy our complete gimp, but at least it wont be a damagenerf of close to 30%. My guess is more around 7-8% overall, since we still are forced to spam that damn ability, just now with less damage and less survival.

 

As I understand it the chance to proc FA is only increased by 10%, so it will not have any real impact on PvP, as it already procs within the 5 gravrounds you have to cast anyways to complete your rotation, and it is still limited to proc max every 6 sec.

 

You would also need to get the damage of railshot and Unloadx2 in there to give a complete picture. Only using 5x gravround and 1xHSM for damagecalculation will give a biased view of overall damage.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Niconogood

[navydudeogika]

Yeah, definitely change the casttime of TM back to 1,5 sec. I fear it will still not remedy our complete gimp, but at least it wont be a damagenerf of close to 30%. My guess is more around 7-8% overall, since we still are forced to spam that damn ability, just now with less damage and less survival.

 

As I understand it the chance to proc FA is only increased by 10%, so it will not have any real impact on PvP, as it already procs within the 5 gravrounds you have to cast anyways to complete your rotation, and it is still limited to proc max every 6 sec.

 

 

Welll... these are the nerfs to arsenal :

 

-5% damage reduction

-10% TM damage

+5 second Cd to AOE knowback

 

the buffs :

+ 10% HSM damage

+ 15% chance to trigger barrage ( its now 45% chance where it was 30% )

 

personally, my rotation relies on unload, because it hits like a truck and if all 3 hits land (stack on 5% accuracy or save tanks for last lol) its like doing 2.5-3 TM in the span of 2 cast times...

 

since they are not nerfing the damage of it, it might actually be closer to 3 TM.

HSM is another one of my favorite moves, as it can instantly follow up a

TM.

 

for example, if TM hits for 1000 and HSM hits for 1000 + 5% per heat sig, thats hitting for

1000 instantly followed by a 1250 HSM hit = 2250dmg

 

after 1.2 the TM would do a 900 hit (90% of 1000) while the HSM would hit for 1100 x 1.25 = 1375 for a tottal of 2275 damage...

 

also, the difference from a 30% chance to proc and 45% chance is HUGE so barrage can happen every third cast if you have any luck at all.

 

if you spam like 6-7 TM, then oh well your doing it wrong anyway lol

[Ifrit]

AHHHH. Ok so we can still spec TM back down to 1.5. That makes it not NEARLY as bad.

 

I will try and redo some numbers below to get an idea of the actual impact. And ya, I realize Unload will be a much bigger part of my rotation after 1.2, but that also makes railshot less useful because it will take longer to get 5 TM buffs stacked up.

 

Current Pre 1.2 estimates

Tracer missile = 1850 dmg @ "1.5"

Heat Seaker = 1900 dmg

 

 

Post 1.2 estimates

TM = 1665 @ 1.5 seconds (1859 x .9)

HSM = 2090 (1900 x 1.1)

 

"Burst" Rotation pre 1.2

TM x 3 = 5550 (1850 x 3) in 4.5 seconds

HSM = 1900 dmg in .5 seconds

Total = 7450 dmg in ~ 5 seconds.

DPS = 1490 dps

 

"Burst" Rotation post 1.2

TM x 3 = 4995 (1665 x 3) in 4.5 seconds

HSM = 2090 in .5 seconds

Total = 7085 dmg in ~ 5 seconds

DPS = 1,417 dps

 

pre vs post difference = 5% [(1490-1417)/1490]

 

 

"Full" Rotation pre 1.2

TM x 3 = 5550 in 4.5 s

HSM = 1900 dmg in .5 s

*unload*

TM x 2 = 3700 in 3 s

*rail shot*

~Total dmg = 11,100 dmg in "8" s

~Total dps = 1387

 

"Full" Rotation post 1.2

TM x 3 = 4995 (1665 x 3) in 6 seconds

HSM = 2090 in .5 seconds

*unload*

TM x 2 = 3330 in 4 s

*rail shot*

~Total = 10,385 in 8 s

~Total dps = 1298

 

Total Difference = 6.4% [(1387-1298)/1387]

 

Unload still wins @ ~1500 dps (with barrage and with no misses) and minimal heat costs.

[Ifrit]

Welll... these are the nerfs to arsenal :

 

-5% damage reduction

-10% TM damage

+5 second Cd to AOE knowback

 

the buffs :

+ 10% HSM damage

+ 15% chance to trigger barrage ( its now 45% chance where it was 30% )

 

personally, my rotation relies on unload, because it hits like a truck and if all 3 hits land (stack on 5% accuracy or save tanks for last lol) its like doing 2.5-3 TM in the span of 2 cast times...

 

since they are not nerfing the damage of it, it might actually be closer to 3 TM.

HSM is another one of my favorite moves, as it can instantly follow up a

TM.

 

for example, if TM hits for 1000 and HSM hits for 1000 + 5% per heat sig, thats hitting for

1000 instantly followed by a 1250 HSM hit = 2250dmg

 

after 1.2 the TM would do a 900 hit (90% of 1000) while the HSM would hit for 1100 x 1.25 = 1375 for a tottal of 2275 damage...

 

also, the difference from a 30% chance to proc and 45% chance is HUGE so barrage can happen every third cast if you have any luck at all.

 

if you spam like 6-7 TM, then oh well your doing it wrong anyway lol

 

Ya i agree, unload is already amazing and completely underrated. However, this is just "forcing" idiots to play better vs the good players already work unload into their rotation. I didn't add it in my "rotation" calculations because the dmg wasn't changing. It sucks that by making us use Unload more it will prolong the time until we can maximize railshot. It would be nice if railshot buff also stacked as quick as the HSM buff.

[Deklir]

My biggest issue is:

 

"Tracer Missile has been rebalanced in order to encourage more active gameplay rotations."

 

Translation: "People are crying"

 

Bioware you haven't changed anything. Crappy players spam tracer missles because it's easy. Good players that want to get the most out of their mercenary spam tracer missles because we have to. You think I want to spend half my time in a warzone croutched over staring at my wrist?

 

Arsenal Mercs Spam Tracer Missles...

 

1) It stacks an armor penetration debuff that benefits both out and our allies damage.

 

2) It places a heat signature that increases the damage of our heatseeking missles.

 

3) It makes the target vulnerable to rail shot. Without heat signature the target has to be inmobilized for rail shot to be used.

 

4) It gives us a buff that increases the damage of our Rail shots.

 

5) It procs Barrage that finishes the cooldown on our unload and makes it tick faster.

 

6) It has no cooldown. Our other big dps abilities do. Heatseeking Missles 15 seconds, Rail Shot 15 seconds, Unload 15 seconds, Fusion Missle 30 seconds. (what are we suppose to do... let you beat on us, run, or auto shot?)

 

7) It does good damage for heat cost ratio.

 

8) Bonus - For 2 talent points it stacks a buff on the Mercenary that reduces damage taken and boy do we need it. Arsenal survivalbility is low.

 

Arsenal Mercs required a FIX not a NERF. You designed a tree whose functions revolves around one ability and then are suprised when that ability if spammed? The arsenal tree needs to be re-worked. I don't want to spam tracer missles. Please don't make me play Pyro...

[Deklir]

Also I apologize for going off in an otherwise imfomative thread. It's just that you confirmed what I already suspected. That these changes won't actually change our DPS rotation at all. 3X Tracer Missles, Heatseeking Missles, Unload, 2X Tracer Missles, Rail Shot will still be our main rotation.

[Niconogood]

 

also, the difference from a 30% chance to proc and 45% chance is HUGE so barrage can happen every third cast if you have any luck at all.

 

if you spam like 6-7 TM, then oh well your doing it wrong anyway lol

 

No, the problem is that Unload are still affected by the proctimer, which means it can only happen every 6 seconds or so. If this wasnt the case I would agree with you. But imo unload already procs enough that this will not have any noticable effect over the short span of a PvP encounter rotation. As 5 gravrounds is already enough to make it proc at least once. In drawn out bossfights you will get an increased dmg from FA procs maybe so much that it offsets the TM gimp. In PvP, no. When you have to switch targets that resets your rotation, and youre back to spamming all those initial TMs.

 

So I agree with OPs conclusion that overall DpS in PvP due to our more "active" rotation will be reduced by 6-7% due to still being forced to spam that, now gimped, fkin tracermissile/gravround in order to do anything.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Niconogood

[Ifrit]

Also I apologize for going off in an otherwise imfomative thread. It's just that you confirmed what I already suspected. That these changes won't actually change our DPS rotation at all. 3X Tracer Missles, Heatseeking Missles, Unload, 2X Tracer Missles, Rail Shot will still be our main rotation.

 

I partially disagree. I think in pvp it will be close to what you indicate. On the other hand, in pve it will come down to hitting Unload and HSM as often as possible which will disrupt a "rotation" after the first round of it.

[Ehlin]

As a bodyguard merc I hate arsenal mercs that just tracer missile me into the ground. Not much I can do besides stun run/cure myself.

I'm more upset at the fact I can't use cure to remove the debuff.

 

That being said, I have played an arsernal merc and would love to do so again but I feel the tree needs to be reworked. I agree that they have done little to change the arsenal rotation.

[Yazule]

AHHHH. Ok so we can still spec TM back down to 1.5. That makes it not NEARLY as bad.

 

I will try and redo some numbers below to get an idea of the actual impact. And ya, I realize Unload will be a much bigger part of my rotation after 1.2, but that also makes railshot less useful because it will take longer to get 5 TM buffs stacked up.

 

Current Pre 1.2 estimates

Tracer missile = 1850 dmg @ "1.5"

Heat Seaker = 1900 dmg

 

 

Post 1.2 estimates

TM = 1665 @ 1.5 seconds (1859 x .9)

HSM = 2090 (1900 x 1.1)

 

"Burst" Rotation pre 1.2

TM x 3 = 5550 (1850 x 3) in 4.5 seconds

HSM = 1900 dmg in .5 seconds

Total = 7450 dmg in ~ 5 seconds.

DPS = 1490 dps

 

"Burst" Rotation post 1.2

TM x 3 = 4995 (1665 x 3) in 4.5 seconds

HSM = 2090 in .5 seconds

Total = 7085 dmg in ~ 5 seconds

DPS = 1,417 dps

 

pre vs post difference = 5% [(1490-1417)/1490]

 

 

"Full" Rotation pre 1.2

TM x 3 = 5550 in 4.5 s

HSM = 1900 dmg in .5 s

*unload*

TM x 2 = 3700 in 3 s

*rail shot*

~Total dmg = 11,100 dmg in "8" s

~Total dps = 1387

 

"Full" Rotation post 1.2

TM x 3 = 4995 (1665 x 3) in 6 seconds

HSM = 2090 in .5 seconds

*unload*

TM x 2 = 3330 in 4 s

*rail shot*

~Total = 10,385 in 8 s

~Total dps = 1298

 

Total Difference = 6.4% [(1387-1298)/1387]

 

Unload still wins @ ~1500 dps (with barrage and with no misses) and minimal heat costs.

 

 

for a "rough" guess this seems to be accurate, BUT you are off on the nerf direction, with a 45% chance to proc, Unload will be used on cooldown, the rotation is a "starting rotation" to build stacks, once armor is stripped you only actually NEED 1 TM every 15 seconds, now because Rails shot, HSM and Unload will have down times you will use more than 1 TM every 15 sec BUT, the reality is, Unload, HSM, and Rail are cast when available (with that being the priority). End of the day I expect much better dps than "standard rotation" would give, I expect a slight dps increase.

 

While everyone (myself included) talks about "the rotation" it is actually a priority based class, you only need the rotation to build armor debuffs up front. Dont get me wrong, the more stacks the better for rail shot for example, but casting on cooldown is always > than waiting for stacks

 

just my personal opnion

[Gorlough]

Actually 1.2 will be a damage buff - even in PvP.

The chance to proc Barrage on 2 subsequent Tracers is by ~20% higher than on live servers now. Damage output of a procced Unload surpasses the damage of 2 Tracers undiscussed already. It's somewhat harder though to build stacks for HSM (which I don't use anyways as a Hybrid) and Railshot, but that'll be outweigthed by more procced Unloads.

Our priority system clearly shifts towards Unload as our main damage ability, leaving us with somewhat less Tracerspam, which is good anyways.

What really has been nerfed are the bad players - nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

[Revelationjp]

I think your math is pretty close, but we're still gonna have to wait and see how it plays out. As it's been said, after the initial rotation, the focus shifts to HS and unload, but also, the cooldown of unload is finished by the Tm proc as well as the damage. Since we're still limited by the 6 second limit, Are we actually going to see an increase in the number of procs and therefore the frequency of unloads?

[Splaktar]

I think your math is pretty close, but we're still gonna have to wait and see how it plays out. As it's been said, after the initial rotation, the focus shifts to HS and unload, but also, the cooldown of unload is finished by the Tm proc as well as the damage. Since we're still limited by the 6 second limit, Are we actually going to see an increase in the number of procs and therefore the frequency of unloads?

 

I think that we will. I know that I certainly still have times where I wish that Barrage would proc so that I could Unload again. I was watching this very close last night while trying to maximize my DPS in HM EV.

[Kinediks]

I'm offspec Arsenal, but I have full Columni. On the PTS last night my Tracer was critting for 3k and Heatseeker was critting for 6k WITHOUT adrenals and relics.

[Ifrit]

I think your math is pretty close, but we're still gonna have to wait and see how it plays out. As it's been said, after the initial rotation, the focus shifts to HS and unload, but also, the cooldown of unload is finished by the Tm proc as well as the damage. Since we're still limited by the 6 second limit, Are we actually going to see an increase in the number of procs and therefore the frequency of unloads?

 

Yes I agree. They are just trying to force us to use Unload more. Good players already use it a fair amount; however, bad players are just spamming TM and doing fine. This will "make" them use unload more.

[Iandayen]

I am on the PTR.

 

I have run DPS numbers.

 

We got a buff.

 

Your math is very very wrong - your numbers are very very wrong.

 

Not only are we right up there with every other DPS class - the minute you put 3 arsenal mercs together in a raid - all 3 (if played equally well) will be the top dps of your raid.

 

I'm doing 1600-1700 on some fights in a raid.

 

Never less than 1300-1400.

 

On a test dummy (the operations dummy with static armor etc... not a player or a low level mob) I am holding over 1300 dps easily. This is self buffed without adrenals/rlic uses/stim.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Iandayen

[Splaktar]

I am on the PTR.

 

I have run DPS numbers.

 

We got a buff.

 

Not only are we right up there with every other DPS class - the minute you put 3 arsenal mercs together in a raid - all 3 (if played equally well) will be the top dps of your raid.

 

I'm doing 1600-1700 on some fights in a raid.

 

Never less than 1300-1400.

 

On a test dummy (the operations dummy with static armor etc... not a player or a low level mob) I am holding over 1300 dps easily. This is self buffed without adrenals/rlic uses/stim.

 

Great info! Thank you!

[DyasAlue]

I am on the PTR.

 

I have run DPS numbers.

 

We got a buff.

 

Your math is very very wrong - your numbers are very very wrong.

 

Not only are we right up there with every other DPS class - the minute you put 3 arsenal mercs together in a raid - all 3 (if played equally well) will be the top dps of your raid.

 

I'm doing 1600-1700 on some fights in a raid.

 

Never less than 1300-1400.

 

On a test dummy (the operations dummy with static armor etc... not a player or a low level mob) I am holding over 1300 dps easily. This is self buffed without adrenals/rlic uses/stim.

 

So what is your rotation current and ptr? What is the % dif? Just curious laid out like OP.

[Iandayen]

Rotation on PTS is exactly the same as it is on live atm.

 

Tracer, tracer, tracer to get stacks up at start of fight.

 

After that.

 

Barrage Unload > HSM > Rail Shot > Tracer missile for priority.

 

Pretty much tracer while you wait for barrage proc or HSM or rail shot to come off of cooldown.

 

As far as % differences go I can't give solid numbers because live doesn't have a combat log to parse like the PTS does.

 

But on the PTS, I'm getting a LOT more barrage procs, and Heatseeker is hitting a LOT harder (seems like more than 10% to me but I'm not complaining)

 

Couple that with the fact that barrage procs = better heat management, and that = longer uptime and zero auto attacks - that makes our damage go up considerably.

 

 

And if you are worried about burst in pvp? If you were spamming tracer in pvp you were being dumb anyways - but heatseeker on the PTS is critting for over 5k on full BM geared people - and full BM gear on the PTS gives almost 20% dmg reduction.

 

On someone not wearing any pvp armor at all, my Heatseeker crit for 6.8k.