Infiltration Rotation = /yawn

[Boarg]

How do you get to that conclusion honestly? Kinetic's sustained dps is at the very least as high as Infiltration's and both of them can get 400k+ without a single AE. I know because I have done it.

 

How do you get to that conclusion?

 

Seriously, though...Kinetic is not where near Infiltration's sustained single target dps.

 

In operations, Kinetic tanks have to work hard to keep me (Infiltration) from pulling aggro off them, even with their big threat modifier. If they get lazy at all (or just distracted with other fight mechanics), I get aggro and have to burn Cloak to save my skin. If they were doing the same dps as me, they'd be so far ahead on threat that it would never, ever happen.

 

Project is Kinetic's hardest hitting ability. Infiltration has an extra +15% damage through talents beyond what Kinetic has with it, in addition to it costing much, much less force. Force Breach hits nearly as hard for Infiltration while being a low damage ability mostly used for debuff for Kinetic. Infiltrations technique procs do much more damage. Infiltration has another big hitter with low cost from consuming Find Weakness procs. Infiltration's weapon damage attacks don't suffer from -10% melee bonus. Clairvoyant Strike has +5% damage over Double Strike, even before the -10% melee bonus. And on and on... Infiltration's abilities hit harder and at higher force efficiencies pretty much across the board.

 

Kinetic does good damage for a tank spec, but it really doesn't keep up with any legit dps spec for any class for single target damage.

[Xinika]

All those kiddies running around with DPS gear w/ KC have another thing coming in ranked wzs. Good luck killing anyone with half a brain in real matches.

[Aaramis]

All those kiddies running around with DPS gear w/ KC have another thing coming in ranked wzs.

 

Umm....isn't that what you do on Shin??

[Payneintherear]

How do you get to that conclusion?

 

Seriously, though...Kinetic is not where near Infiltration's sustained single target dps.

 

Project is Kinetic's hardest hitting ability. Infiltration has an extra +15% damage through talents beyond what Kinetic has with it, in addition to it costing much, much less force. Force Breach hits nearly as hard for Infiltration while being a low damage ability mostly used for debuff for Kinetic. Infiltrations technique procs do much more damage. Infiltration has another big hitter with low cost from consuming Find Weakness procs. Infiltration's weapon damage attacks don't suffer from -10% melee bonus. Clairvoyant Strike has +5% damage over Double Strike, even before the -10% melee bonus. And on and on... Infiltration's abilities hit harder and at higher force efficiencies pretty much across the board.

 

Kinetic does good damage for a tank spec, but it really doesn't keep up with any legit dps spec for any class for single target damage.

 

I don't know where to start, but I'll try to explain where you are absolutely mistaken:

 

1. I am talking sustained damage, making it completely irrelevant what abilities hit the hardest for the respective spec, since none of the abilities can be sustained

 

2. Project may hit harder for Infiltration, but this comes at the cost of 2 GCDs dedicated to increasing Project's damage. You also absolutely ignore the fact that Kinetic doesn't have a hard CD of 6s on Project (this obviously is less important when looking at sustained dps, but Infiltration spec has barely enough regen to cast 1 Project every 6s once their 110 force are gone (6*8= 48 and Project costs 45), while Kinetic will regenerate 62.4 force in the same 6s, allowing for 1.6 casts of Project solely off of the regen

 

You also have to account for the way higher crit chance for Project that Kinetic has compared to Infiltration

 

The 15% extra damage on Project would be increasing the damage of sustained Projects by more than than the 50% crit damage bonus from Infiltration does (assuming a tooltip damage of 1500 sans respective talents and 75% surge for both, we are looking at ~3.1k crits vs. 3.4k crits in favor of infiltration. Infiltration specs will not exceed more than a 30% crit chance on Project in a sustained model (that's including Force Potency, since most Infiltration builds that have 1500 TT damage on their Project will be at <25% crit chance self buffed)

 

Anyway, as you can see Project is a really bad deal for Infiltration, unless we spend force and time (absolutely terrible issues for the spec) on making Project bearable). For Kinetic the ability is not superb, but given the automatic crits, the building of harnessed darkness charges and the flat 15% damage bonus sans requirement, it is well within the parameters for a "passable ability"

 

3. Double Strike for Kinetic is significantly more damage per point of force than Clairvoyant Strike could ever hope to be. This is huge. Kinetic has a 23 point DS and a 50% crit damage modifier on top of a 6% higher damage on the ability itself. Infiltration has, at most. the 6% damage boost from Applied Force

 

4. Telekinetic Throw is an incredibly efficient tool in terms of damage. Nothing that Infiltration has can even come close to it. Given how Force Potency effects this ability, you can turn this into a monster ability for Kinetic's sustained damage model (to give you an approximate figure, we are going to look at 8kish damage without adrenals (with war hero gear, a little lower with BM gear) for a cost of -1.2 force (that's right, you actually gain 1.2 force in the time you do the damage))

Edited March 31, 2012 by Payneintherear

[Payneintherear]

All those kiddies running around with DPS gear w/ KC have another thing coming in ranked wzs. Good luck killing anyone with half a brain in real matches.

 

This comment makes me think of a spoiled brat, who desperately wants to separate itself from the rest of the crowd. Fact is that as much as anybody playing a Shadow hates it, KC always outperforms Infiltration and Balance.

 

Anybody who thinks that slightly, very slightly higher burst of Infiltration will mean squat when teams are actually organized has never played a PvP game before. Whenever skill caps are raised, whenever the game becomes more sophisticated, burst is the first thing to lose power, because it can be countered.

 

Sustained damage, durability and control win in high-end PvP and KC beats both other specs in each of these categories by a mile.

 

If you actually wanted to imply that KC specs are going to have to wear "tank gear" for rated, I have to laugh at that too, because that's exactly what KC is not made for (and why I have been saying that Shadow in general are not the best choice for rated as they do not excel in anything). KC has no defensive CDs that increase the value of every point of extra health exponentially. KC has no AoE mezz or way to avoid damage outside of Resilience and thus any investment in defensive traits, especially in light of how they actually affect PvP, is a waste.

 

The most valuable Shadow you can play in rated is a Kinetic that focuses heavily on damage, while guarding dps and taunting off the opposition going for your healers, so that you can move back and take out the over extenders with your guardee.

[Andar]

When you can do 15k DMG in a matter of 4 global cooldowns, then your argument of "kinetic has close to the same burst as infiltration" will have some validity.

 

And by reading your patterns of semi arrogant posts in this thread, I'm sure you'll come up with another 20 paragraphs arguing your point.

 

The fact that kinetic has the best survivability/dps ratio is valid, but you'll never come close to the amount of burst a smart infiltration shadow can put out.

(and notice I said burst, not overall dmg)

[Payneintherear]

When you can do 15k DMG in a matter of 4 global cooldowns, then your argument of "kinetic has close to the same burst as infiltration" will have some validity.

 

Are you referring to me? What is this? Some kind of joke? No such claim about burst damage has been made. Read posts, think, then hit reply. (For reference 15k damage in 4 globals is absolutely possible for Kinetic, though Infiltration will potentially do 15k in 3 globals, so that Kinetic is definitely not on par with Infiltration when it comes to burst, but make no mistake, it's not a huge difference).

 

And by reading your patterns of semi arrogant posts in this thread, I'm sure you'll come up with another 20 paragraphs arguing your point.

 

Every single post in this thread where I have said that Kinetic will rival (in fact I believe it will surpass) the other two specs has had me explicitly state that I am talking about sustained single target DPS.

 

The fact that kinetic has the best survivability/dps ratio is valid, but you'll never come close to the amount of burst a smart infiltration shadow can put out.

(and notice I said burst, not overall dmg)

 

Yeah, I noticed how you turned this into a different argument.

[Lawconis]

YOU ALL ARE TROLLS! =)

 

MY thread started by saying that Infiltration's rotation is too stagnant. A Sentinal though, not that has some very interesting changes.

 

There are TWO types of dps play types: priority and rotation.

 

Infiltration has a rotation. You must follow it closely, leaving little room for imagination.

 

A Sentinal has more of a priority system based on alternating CDs and situations.

 

I SUGGESTED that "proc" type play is much more fun. This is why random reward (look up BF Skinner) is so strong, slot machines anyone?

 

Change the proc rate and damage of Shadow Strike, change the static flow, we are back in business!

 

And the rest of you, stay on topic please.

 

"Stay on target!"

[Andar]

I'm sure you'll come up with another 20 paragraphs arguing your point.

 

^^^^^

[Boarg]

I don't know where to start, but I'll try to explain where you are absolutely mistaken:

 

......

 

I have a pretty good handle on all the mechanics, force efficiencies, etc. I was just trying to give a quick illustration on why Infiltration comes out better on sustained damage without getting bogged down into details that can't be quantified in a concrete manner without getting into deep into using tools like simcraft or something.

 

Although, the guy made it pretty easy to get to a bottom line over in the parse thread.

 

1357 for Infiltration, 1099 for Kinetic.

 

Being more than 20% under isn't close...and certainly not better. (Would have to increase Kinetic by ~23% to catch up.) For a PvP spec with solid survivability, it is a good trade-off, but it is a considerable drop in sustained damage and even bigger drop in burst capability with Infiltration's ability to chain 3-4 big hitters end to end.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Boarg

[Payneintherear]

I have a pretty good handle on all the mechanics, force efficiencies, etc. I was just trying to give a quick illustration on why Infiltration comes out better on sustained damage without getting bogged down into details that can't be quantified in a concrete manner without getting into deep into using tools like simcraft or something.

 

Although, the guy made it pretty easy to get to a bottom line over in the parse thread.

 

1357 for Infiltration, 1099 for Kinetic.

 

Being more than 20% under isn't close...and certainly not better. (Would have to increase Kinetic by ~23% to catch up.) For a PvP spec with solid survivability, it is a good trade-off, but it is a considerable drop in sustained damage and even bigger drop in burst capability with Infiltration's ability to chain 3-4 big hitters end to end.

 

Please take another look at the parses in the thread.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=385688

 

The 27/0/14 Kinetic build parsed 1208 DPS and I am not sure if it can't be improved. (Looking at the parse there are 1 out of 3 Projects that are used outside of Particle Acceleration. Doing this will lower overall DPS, because Project only becomes bearable in terms of damage per force, if it crits).

 

Also, I believe Force Potency was not used in this test? Force Potency is really good for Kinetic's sustained damage, as it will affect every single tick of a Telekinetic Throw for a single charge and add 50% crit damage to Project.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Payneintherear

[JamieKirby]

Boring > Underpowered.

 

Coming from a jedi guardian, i know that all too well.

 

I would honestly prefer a boring rotation over being underpowered anyday.

[Anelyn]

Coming from a jedi guardian, i know that all too well.

 

I would honestly prefer a boring rotation over being underpowered anyday.

 

QFT.

 

I love balance playstyle. Heck I like infiltration style as well despite the huge drawbacks outside of CDs (as everything becomes a huge lotery reliant on crit in order to do any meaningful damage, we all know how "hard" those shadow strikes, buffed projects and force breach hit non-crit, right?). But neither holds a candle to KC utility and survability. Is only spec (talking 31/0/10 of course) that makes you feel contributing ACTIVELY to your team effort in a warzone. You don't have to vanish if 2 peeps connect on you or respawn in consequence, you have staying power, even without outside help, to continue helping your team (how much can you delay 4 enemy players in voidstar from chasing your mates to bridge controls, or peeps who try to go left turret from their mid spawn to give time to your team to reinforce it before they get there, as infil or balance?).

 

They need to rework on infil (and balance to some extent as well) mechanics, because all this build up time to actually do damage (outside of cds, and still crit reliant) is not working for current game pace. Light armor who needs to stay in the fray to charge up damaging skills and hope for crits to actually do some meaningful damage.... Does not compute ^^

[rakuenCallisto]

Respec to Balance.

 

Never yawn again.

[Boarg]

Please take another look at the parses in the thread.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=385688

 

The 27/0/14 Kinetic build parsed 1208 DPS....

 

 

We've been talking about Kinetic... 27/0/14 is a hybrid build. (Anything that doesn't put a full 31+ in a given tree is generally considered hybrid.) And it's generally not even considered better for PvP even with better dps than an actual Kinetic build because Slow Time is so good with the AoE -5% damage, AoE slow, and much faster Harnessed Shadows stacking for more healing. (Slow Time alone gives 2/3 of a HS stack in the time you'd get to use a FiB.)

 

You were contending that Kinetic had higher single target sustained damage than Infiltration. That's not true, even with the hybrid build, even if more damage got squeaked out of it. It does do good damage for a tank spec and is strong in PvP, but higher sustained single target damage is not something that can be honestly said for it.

[Payneintherear]

 

You were contending that Kinetic had higher single target sustained damage than Infiltration. That's not true, even with the hybrid build, even if more damage got squeaked out of it. It does do good damage for a tank spec and is strong in PvP, but higher sustained single target damage is not something that can be honestly said for it.

 

Since I practically suggested the spec and requested a parse for it, I am pretty sure I know which build I was talking about. Either way, we'll have to agree to disagree on 27 points in the Kinetic tree being a hybrid spec or not (imo it's not, as it's picking up all the damage capabilities Kinetic has to offer and you then branch out to pick up more damage, because frankly you can with Kinetic's tree but not the others).

 

Anyway, for now I will have to accept that the Kinetic dps build is parsing lower than the Infiltration build, despite the anomalies of the tests and the big variation in duration for both comparisons. Once 1.2goes live, I will present my own numbers for both these specs.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Payneintherear

[heinywb]

Coming from a jedi guardian, i know that all too well.

 

I would honestly prefer a boring rotation over being underpowered anyday.

 

underpowered? lulz u must be in crappy gear. ill assume u know how to play the class.

 

So my four man was practicing using 2 guys in tank stance guarding the other 2 players (vanguard guarding sage healer, guardian guarding infl shadow)

 

guardian was tank specced, with actual tank gear on. he still put up 450k dmg in an alderaan and was dropping 4600 sweeps. he lost about 100k on overall dmg and about 1.4k on his sweeps but he was easier to heal and kept me up with guard. healers didnt stand a chance with him dropping 8.k in 2 gcds and me dropping another 12k in about the same time. guardians are anything but underpowered

Edited April 3, 2012 by heinywb

[Majspuffen]

Respec to Balance.

 

Never yawn again.

 

Sry 2.0 happened.

 

Necro?

 

oh.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Majspuffen

[leijae]

if you pvp and you think infil rotation is boring, then you're doing it wrong. that is all.

[RGMetal]

Yay for year old threads!

[artikulieren]

I only read the first, third and last page. So don't mind me.

 

So for the original topic title. I only find it such in a PvE environment. FPs, Ops, etc. And boring is just about anything I have to complain about, if I were complaining that is. Granted, we don't do as much sustained DPS as Sents. But we trade that for a tank tree so I don't see why there's a problem. Also, force is completely manageable and the rotation is easy to keep going from start to finish. Just got to know what rotation to use, some bosses even stun/cc you for a time so you'll have plenty of force when you get back up.

 

As for PvP, we have the burst, and that's all that matters isn't it? Yes, there have been times I wasn't able to burst someone down, but that usually means they have a healer or are themselves a scoundrel/operative. I have the biggest problems fighting that AC but not much else. And the rotation, at least the opening rotation, while predictable, doesn't make up the entire fight.

 

So as far as being on topic goes, while I agree with it on most PvE encounters for people who get bored easily, I disagree completely when it comes to PvP.