Balance the classes already

[Bnol]

I was mistaken about the 30%, but you can honestly say 30% for 6 seconds is a lot of mitigation? No sir you are wrong, Maybe if they doubled the time people would even give it a thought. I have never seen a dps go OMG he taunted me!! Now that said I understand it does stack with others taunts. So OMG maybe for 6 second if 4 assasin happen to aoe taunt at the same time on the same group you could get OMG 6 seconds of damage immunity!

 

But taunts are off the GCD and cost no resources, which means you get 30% damage reduction 40% (6 seconds duration with a 15 CD) of the time for free. I don't break that down to X% over time because you should rotate taunts with CC/Roots/snares to disrupt the damage output significantly.

[Eaglemouse]

But taunts are off the GCD and cost no resources, which means you get 30% damage reduction 40% (6 seconds duration with a 15 CD) of the time for free. I don't break that down to X% over time because you should rotate taunts with CC/Roots/snares to disrupt the damage output significantly.

 

They are instant cast but they do infact have a cooldown I need to look up what it is I will edit the post....but it's not spamable I will edit with cool down times

 

 

Edit mass mind control (the good one) has a cool down of 45 seconds I know right?!

 

Mind control (single taunt) not so bad at cool down of 15 seconds. better but hardly a full time damage reduction, but for one target if you did spam it when it comes up 6 seconds out of every 15 isn't bad if you can fit it in your damage rotation (good luck with that btw)

 

I could be wrong here.....but it may not trigger a global cooldown but I think you have to wait for the global cool down before you can trigger it again. Now it's my experience that it's better to burn cc's to help protect said target as I can lock one person down for far more then 6 seconds with a force wave and an electricute. Many times they turn to me as I do good damage, and then taunt is useless (I don't get the reduction to myself)

 

Yes way more power to cc but I can also then inflict considerable damage (and reduced damage by 100%) in that time as well without them moving. The taunt does no damage and I can remove 1 person easy enough. Now if the aoe taunt was 15 seconds that would be another story (and yes much more effective) but 45 second in pvp is like a lifetime.

 

I know you seem to place a lot of value on these skills but really do you use them? Have they ever turned a fight for you or given anyone pause? It's not what I have seen.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Eaglemouse

[Bnol]

I see what your saying, not take 2 tanks that guard each other and how does that work out?

 

You wouldn't want to stack all tanks in a WZ and tanks do have a hard limit of 4 per WZ, and actually the real number is around 2-3 because there should only be a couple targets taking damage at any point in time, but that does not mean that tanks are not valuable. Yes, there are a limit to the amount of tanks you should have, just as there is a limit on the amount of healers and dps you should have. The best composition is a mix of tanks/healers/dps.

 

I will also agree in a 2 vs 2 situation guard is the most effective. However on a 8vs 8 where even 3 attack the healer you will be left with a dead healer and half dead tank for mitigation at light armor levels where if the tank didn't guard he would be a able to do way more dps before he dies, and the healer would likely have lived only slightly longer no?

 

I understand the shield only effects ranged and melee damage (the same as armor in fact), so it makes no sense to not mitigate the damage to the tank at his armor % rather than the soft targets. I have never denied that it helps keep the other person alive, but at the cost of you taking damage as if you are as soft as them! That killing 2 for one and without the effort of having to kill 2 both. In my situation it's better to not guard.

 

2 vs 2 is not a good example because that's when guard is most effective and just is enough to maybe turn a battle.

 

Healers are focus fired a lot and is the reason you do not want to guard because not only are you not going to save them you yourself will take considerable damage for no gain. Sorry that extra 3 seconds it took the group to kill them only cost you half your life for what?

 

Most WZ battles are not 8v8, but instead smaller engagements. Even so, the principle holds true if you continue to add tank/dps and make it a 4v4 or an 8v8 fight. You will still have 400 hitpoints to kill all at the same time, versus 4 X 100 hitpoints. The pure dps team will lose people faster and thus lose output faster than the tank/dps team.

 

Your situation of healers being focused fired by 3 people is that 3 people are attacking 2 people. Yes, there is going to be an advantage in 3 people attacking 2 people, with or without guard. But, if I have guard/taunts/cc from a competent tank it takes more than 3 people to bring me down.

 

You want to guard priority targets. Those aren't necessarily healers, but often are. Healers that melt instantly are not worth the time to guard. But a healer that is outputting significant healing, while also taking fire is someone who you should guard. Sure, if you are in a WZ with no healing and everyone doing less dps than yourself, don't guard anyone. But I doubt that is the case most of the time.

[Bnol]

They are instant cast but they do infact have a cooldown I need to look up what it is I will edit the post....but it's not spamable I will edit with cool down times

 

 

Edit mass mind control (the good one) has a cool down of 45 seconds I know right?!

 

Mind control (single taunt) not so bad at cool down of 15 seconds. better but hardly a full time damage reduction, but for one target if you did spam it when it comes up 6 seconds out of every 15 isn't bad if you can fit it in your damage rotation (good luck with that btw)

 

I could be wrong here.....but it may not trigger a global cooldown but I think you have to wait for the global cool down before you can trigger it again. Now it's my experience that it's better to burn cc's to help protect said target as I can lock one person down for far more then 6 seconds with a force wave and an electricute. Many times they turn to me as I do good damage, and then taunt is useless (I don't get the reduction to myself)

 

Yes way more power to cc but I can also then inflict considerable damage (and reduced damage by 100%) in that time as well without them moving. The taunt does no damage and I can remove 1 person easy enough. Now if the aoe taunt was 15 seconds that would be another story (and yes much more effective) but 45 second in pvp is like a lifetime.

 

I know you seem to place a lot of value on these skills but really do you use them? Have they ever turned a fight for you or given anyone pause? It's not what I have seen.

 

You aren't reading my posts, or not understanding them. There is no reason to further discuss this with you. Continue to think guarding and taunting is terrible and/or needs a buff.

[Eaglemouse]

You wouldn't want to stack all tanks in a WZ and tanks do have a hard limit of 4 per WZ, and actually the real number is around 2-3 because there should only be a couple targets taking damage at any point in time, but that does not mean that tanks are not valuable. Yes, there are a limit to the amount of tanks you should have, just as there is a limit on the amount of healers and dps you should have. The best composition is a mix of tanks/healers/dps.

 

 

 

Most WZ battles are not 8v8, but instead smaller engagements. Even so, the principle holds true if you continue to add tank/dps and make it a 4v4 or an 8v8 fight. You will still have 400 hitpoints to kill all at the same time, versus 4 X 100 hitpoints. The pure dps team will lose people faster and thus lose output faster than the tank/dps team.

 

Your situation of healers being focused fired by 3 people is that 3 people are attacking 2 people. Yes, there is going to be an advantage in 3 people attacking 2 people, with or without guard. But, if I have guard/taunts/cc from a competent tank it takes more than 3 people to bring me down.

 

You want to guard priority targets. Those aren't necessarily healers, but often are. Healers that melt instantly are not worth the time to guard. But a healer that is outputting significant healing, while also taking fire is someone who you should guard. Sure, if you are in a WZ with no healing and everyone doing less dps than yourself, don't guard anyone. But I doubt that is the case most of the time.

 

Keep in mind this is only one issue with tanks in pvp. I agree here with what you said and I do use guard and taunt from time to time but hardly the staple I would expect in a pvp tank, and yes mostly you don't want to use it on a soft target (silly!!) but instead on a well geared person to just add to them (afton I use on another sin as we tend to travel together and healers almost never like to get as close to the action as I the tank does, UNLESS your a ranged tank healers are normally out of your guard range anyways 15m I thnk) another + for ranged -melee as I pointed out. add all these things up and yes they impact a melee tanks game in a considerable way.

 

That said we are far from helpless as with the right combination of gear I do good dps and have better armor than any dps so I will normally win against other melee dps with mercs being a bit of trouble but they are for everyone I think as they do massive damage. The issue is ranged and the lack of a role for tanks as a melee tank our options in pvp are almost limited to dps in many situations over our tank role.

 

This is like a healer not healing most of the time but doing dps (yes I know some do but not my point). In many matches I will not taunt (except at start when everyone is grouped up for medals), and sometimes I will not guard except if the match is very close and it makes sense to. That said, less than 1/3 of any match am I doing anything tank! I am dps in heavy armor!!! and sometimes flag runner if I can get it.

 

Fact is most match ups are not 2vs2 or 3vs3, but even if they are it's still effectively 2 vs 1+ guard or 3 vs 1+guard and at the end of that a half dead tank. If you fully spec tank and tank armor your dps is nearly half that of a full dps class. No way I can kill someone before they 2 or 3 could kill a guarded healer unless that healer is either super geared and or in heavy armor or all are not dps classes. I have even seen said healers heal themselves until I died from damage and then they die as the damage would spike. Cazy but it happens!

 

Things may change if a ran in preformed, but as it is I don't and the weakness of the melee tank is clear. No not useless as all classes can dps atleast. Balance isn't bad. But like I said melee tanks should be addressed.

 

Didn't know about hard cap on tanks in pvp.....how do they know what your are? I have seen groups of nearly all inq/sins before so I have to wonder how true this is. If I am dps spec and use tank stance with shield gen and tank armor is it counting me as a dps or a tank?

[Karandor]

The game is pretty balanced, the only stupid damage left is Pyro/Assault PT/VGs (I play a VG, decided to try assault, laughing my *** off at the damage it puts out). Healing is getting toned down and most changes next patch are actually pretty small.

 

 

Compared to every other MMO ever released the PvP balance in this game is a dream come true this early in release.

[Dark_Exile]

Balance went out the window when mmo's shifted from stats per level to gear progression.

In the good old days you would build an archer/ranger/assassin with so much dex a warrior would barely be able to hit it, a wizard/caster would be able to damn near nuke it.

 

Warrior could **** caster, caster **** archer, archer **** warrior.

Circle of death.

 

Now with gear progression and blah blah blah its all out the window, since there are no random builds everything is the same.

 

The old games werent perfectly balanced but they did at least give the illusion of balance with the diversity of how people distributed stat points.

 

Blame WoW for introducing casual gameplay

[Kleve]

Balance went out the window when mmo's shifted from stats per level to gear progression.

In the good old days you would build an archer/ranger/assassin with so much dex a warrior would barely be able to hit it, a wizard/caster would be able to damn near nuke it.

 

Warrior could **** caster, caster **** archer, archer **** warrior.

Circle of death.

 

Now with gear progression and blah blah blah its all out the window, since there are no random builds everything is the same.

 

The old games werent perfectly balanced but they did at least give the illusion of balance with the diversity of how people distributed stat points.

 

Blame WoW for introducing casual gameplay

 

Oh, how I miss the days of the 'rock-paper-scissors' style of pvp. Guildwars had it.

[Eaglemouse]

I understand what your saying, but you are not taking the real world situations in to account. I think we have agreed that it's only effective to guard already well armored targets in most cases (GREAT, not the role of a tank imo but okay).

 

Yes guard is very effective mostly on other tanks! Amazing but is that what bioware intended? taunt vs cc really? can you even compair the 2 one is zero damage the other is -30%, but the first I can dps as well (or just ignore). So how is taunt better than cc do explain!

 

Guard fails because it fails to take in to account mitigation of the tanks armor on the tank effectively making you in to a soft target! Keep the damage to guarded target the same, but mitagate the damage to the tanks as per his armor (like he stepped in the way of a flow or 2). How is that over powered and not a reasonable change?

 

/sigh

[Dark_Exile]

Oh, how I miss the days of the 'rock-paper-scissors' style of pvp. Guildwars had it.

 

Yeah, it did however give people the ability to make a tank out of a class that shouldnt be a tank, or a warrior with so much dex it gave archers surprise buttsecks without yelling surprise.

 

Class diversity was what balanced pvp, these games will never have it.

[Kleve]

Yeah, it did however give people the ability to make a tank out of a class that shouldnt be a tank, or a warrior with so much dex it gave archers surprise buttsecks without yelling surprise.

 

Class diversity was what balanced pvp, these games will never have it.

 

Wish me luck, bro.

[Eaglemouse]

Balance went out the window when mmo's shifted from stats per level to gear progression.

In the good old days you would build an archer/ranger/assassin with so much dex a warrior would barely be able to hit it, a wizard/caster would be able to damn near nuke it.

 

Warrior could **** caster, caster **** archer, archer **** warrior.

Circle of death.

 

Now with gear progression and blah blah blah its all out the window, since there are no random builds everything is the same.

 

The old games werent perfectly balanced but they did at least give the illusion of balance with the diversity of how people distributed stat points.

 

Blame WoW for introducing casual gameplay

 

 

It has some gear issues to but for some awesome r/p/s pvp try DC online. the r/p/s effect however is not only by class but by block/counter block/interupt so if you play smart almost any class can kill another if your good. But each class has a weakness to another so class sure can help to. I am having a lot of fun with it.

[Harower]

I wouldn't call it flavor of hte month.

 

More that they gave a few classes some amazing utilitiy moves that are game breaking in pvp environments

 

The amount of games I lose because one team has more "pull, nockback, sprint etc" is amazing. Those are the abilities that make / break organised pvp.

 

Then they mess up all the classes in an attempt to fix it.

[Eaglemouse]

The game is pretty balanced, the only stupid damage left is Pyro/Assault PT/VGs (I play a VG, decided to try assault, laughing my *** off at the damage it puts out). Healing is getting toned down and most changes next patch are actually pretty small.

 

 

Compared to every other MMO ever released the PvP balance in this game is a dream come true this early in release.

 

Ya mostly I agree with thia. I remember Daoc each side had like 8 classes with 3 sides and each class had 3 trees to spec per class. Loved the concept but took years to balance the game to anything reasonable. I left before that ever happened (if it did).

 

They did a smart thing with mirror classes so even if out of balance it's the same for both sides. They did many smart things and some not so much.

 

Oh on breakout (anti cc) you have 3 second immunity from cc and let me say it's something Tor should consider.

[Zootskyqua]

The only way to achieve true balance is to make one class so everyone has the exact same abilities, make all weapons have the exact same damage output and, all armor have the exact same stats.

 

Even then would people complain because someone is better at using thier abilities than they are.

 

Games like this are balanced by GROUPS, not for 1 vs 1. Untill people understand that, the rediculous whinning will persist.

[Eaglemouse]

The only way to achieve true balance is to make one class so everyone has the exact same abilities, make all weapons have the exact same damage output and, all armor have the exact same stats.

 

Even then would people complain because someone is better at using thier abilities than they are.

 

Games like this are balanced by GROUPS, not for 1 vs 1. Untill people understand that, the rediculous whinning will persist.

 

That's not really true. the r/p/s system worked well for a long time and keeps very good balance at the group level anyways if not 1 vs 1.

 

I agree people will always complain even if everything was 100% the same for everyone. Then it would be hackers and stuff

 

Human nature I guess, but if someone can show facts as to why something is wrong, and can back it up with say win/loses of said classes vs each other I think you can make a strong case to improve things and it's not QQ then