Word on the street says that "Protection" in Warzones isn't important....

[arrionw]

As others have said, protection certaily is useful, and is the best thing to do to help your team if you don't have good PVP gear yet. Its also useful to sit on an opposing healer and stun/interrupt them to disrupt them as much as possible, but no one will ever notice when the opposing Sorc who normally gets 400K healing only gets 250K because you were a constant thorn in his side.

 

As you get gear however, it is better to gear for DPS so you can do enough damage to be a significant threat and help burn people down.

[Astarica]

Protection is part of playing a tank. Also throwing a random guard and hoping for the best is called medal farming. Throwing your guard selectively and on specific targets could be a game changer. Just this morning I was running towards the goal line with with 30% health. It was about 40m away and no one in front of me to pass, and I see 4 foes coming towards me and charging. A jugg came from behind and throw guard on me and made it to goal line with 600health left, and we won by 1 point.

 

Tanks have one of the best shots at scoring in Huttball. All tanks have at least 2 of the following speedboost/jump/intercede/pull/push. In Voidstar, also ideal at guarding doors bying a few more sec for reinforcements, same with Alderaan.

 

Well guarding the Huttball carrier is literally always beneficial. There's pretty much no reason to not do this. Guarding anyone else requires some thought and shouldn't be done mindlessly unless you're trying to get your 4 medals. Guarding a Sage/Sorc, in particular, is very dangerous, because 2 good DPS can shut down a Sage/Sorc quite well and you can have cases where it takes less time for 2 good DPS to kill the Sage + tank at the same time (due to shared damage) compared to killing them unguarded one at a time.

 

The enemy gets a vote on whether you should Guard in general. Great DPS always trumps great healer unless the healer is a Merc (due to their survivality, but about to be nerfed next patch). Two guys that know how to rotate their interrupts can shut down any healer no matter how good the healer is, and in such a case you're better off saving your HP so you've some slim chance of avenging the healer, as opposed to just die with him while he gets shut down by interrupts.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Astarica

[Amp_]

I don't play a healer so I am not familiar enough with the intimate changes, but with 1.2 on the way I would guess that protection may prove to become more valuable. It's good to have now and I have an alt that I play as a support tank, but 1.2 might just make it more relevant of a play-style. Right now you rarely see that role played properly. Seems like people are more interested in getting their protection medals than anything else. Edited March 26, 2012 by Amp_

[upzie]

 

He then went on and called me out for only having 30K damage the prior Huttball match and so on.

 

 

So yeah, is he right? Does Protection and by extention, being a tank is useless in PvP Warzones? The way he talked, it is as if only Healers and Damage is important. Is he right?

 

 

I ask this because my character is a tank and that is what I specialize in. I am equipped for taking damage, not giving it. Am I doing it wrong?

 

Yes protection is importent.

 

and yes you are doing it wrong, 30k dmg is impossible low, even in green gear. And theres no such thing as equiped for "tanking" in pvp, the only way to tank in pvp is to have a big healthpool, and cd's to help you out.

 

Seeing as all the other defense mechanics, such as shield etc. are more or less worthless in pvp, because of the way the game mechanics function atm.

[Blurps]

I cringe every time I'm specced Tactics or Assault on my Vanguard and top the protection charts by using taunts alone. Which happens more often than not...

[AMKSED]

Hmm, on my hybrid build Shadow I can get 500k+ damage along with 150k+ protection.

[Suzina]

Put the person on /ignore then tell them they are on /ignore.

 

By doing this, you will turn him into an NPC.

 

Some people are insecure and ******es. Putting them on /ignore also ensures you will never group with them (because if you are advertising for a PVE group, you won't hear them asking to join). You don't have to remember what he said, who he is, or anything. Just /ignore.

 

/ignore is the strongest punishment you can give someone in a warzone. People like that *hate* when people ignore them or don't take them seriously because it makes them feel less powerful.

 

I know a lot of people won't put people on ignore because they are worried they'll "miss" something. You're only missing 1 jerk's comments. And if you like, you can always clean your ignore list monthly to give people a second-chance. it's not like it's permanent.

[Varicite]

Hmm, on my hybrid build Shadow I can get 500k+ damage along with 150k+ protection.

 

I would be impressed if that was 500k single-target, meaningful damage that actually killed other key players, but we both know it wasn't.

[Astarica]

I would be impressed if that was 500k single-target, meaningful damage that actually killed other key players, but we both know it wasn't.

 

Is this some common thing to say when someone does twice the DPS as you do on the scoreboard?

 

Wither would be a good attack even if it's used on a single person. It has higher expected DPF than Thrash due to 100% chance to generate a stack of HD, so using an attack that's better than Thrash is apparently padding DPS.

 

You're not exactly talking about AE/dot speced Sorc/Sniper here. You're not even talking about say a Merc who may have certain advantages compared to a melee character (ranged tends to die less often). This is melee versus melee.

[KavikaDestroyer]

I would be impressed if that was 500k single-target, meaningful damage that actually killed other key players, but we both know it wasn't.

 

Ouch.

[Varicite]

Is this some common thing to say when someone does twice the DPS as you do on the scoreboard?

 

Wither would be a good attack even if it's used on a single person. It has higher expected DPF than Thrash due to 100% chance to generate a stack of HD, so using an attack that's better than Thrash is apparently padding DPS.

 

You're not exactly talking about AE/dot speced Sorc/Sniper here. You're not even talking about say a Merc who may have certain advantages compared to a melee character (ranged tends to die less often). This is melee versus melee.

 

It's a common thing to say to someone who talks about their damage scores when 2 of their main abilities are weak AoEs that are spammed on cooldown.

 

I'm sorry if I offended you, but Wither and Discharge definitely do a good bit of numbers padding for Darkness Sins, and very rarely do any sort of real harm to key players (ie: opposing tanks and healers).

 

If you are doing your job as a tank and in the middle of the fray as you should be, you're going to be spamming AoEs into a lot of people, and coupled w/ a higher survival rate, it's pretty easy to see how you can rack up that kind of damage.

 

Most Sins spec'd into Wither use a "rotation" that consists primarily of Wither, Shock, Discharge, w/ some odd Thrashes thrown in as Force allows to proc Energize. Basically HALF of your main abilities deal AoE damage, so it's exactly like talking about an AoE/DoT spec'd Sorc/Sniper. Only, instead of being ranged, they self-heal for 12% every 15~ seconds. That also helps a lot w/ dying less often.

 

I'm not saying he didn't kill anyone, or that he doesn't do decent damage for a tank, but let's not kid ourselves and pretend that a hefty portion of that 500k wasn't from spamming AoEs.

 

Also, I'm a BM Pyrotech PT. I don't know if it's even possible for a class to do twice as much damage as me on the scoreboard w/out a pocket guard/healer combo. I would hope that 3 people could at least double my damage. : )

Edited March 27, 2012 by Varicite

[Astarica]

It's a common thing to say to someone who talks about their damage scores when 2 of their main abilities are weak AoEs that are spammed on cooldown.

 

I'm sorry if I offended you, but Wither and Discharge definitely do a good bit of numbers padding for Darkness Sins, and very rarely do any sort of real harm to key players (ie: opposing tanks and healers).

 

If you are doing your job as a tank and in the middle of the fray as you should be, you're going to be spamming AoEs into a lot of people, and coupled w/ a higher survival rate, it's pretty easy to see how you can rack up that kind of damage.

 

Most Sins spec'd into Wither use a "rotation" that consists primarily of Wither, Shock, Discharge, w/ some odd Thrashes thrown in as Force allows to proc Energize. Basically HALF of your main abilities deal AoE damage, so it's exactly like talking about an AoE/DoT spec'd Sorc/Sniper.

 

I'm not saying you didn't kill anyone, or that you don't do decent damage for a tank, but let's not kid ourselves and pretend that a hefty portion of that 500k wasn't from spamming AoEs.

 

Discharge isn't even a great attack to pad DPS due to its low damage + long cooldown.

 

Wither has a higher single target DPS/DPF than Thrash in other specs since the damage from the stack of HD generated eventually goes to a single person too.

 

So you're saying someone who uses an attack that is more DPS than Thrash on a single person is padding DPS? Then what do you call guys using Thrash?

 

Your single target DPS in Darkness comes from stacks of HD. If you don't generate HD stacks, you don't do single target DPS at all. This isn't like a Sorc or a Sniper who has to choose between focusing on one guy or just AEing. You must AE to be able to focus on one guy in the first place, and your AE hits a single guy harder than the staple single target rotation move in other specs anyway. Even in 1 on 1, Wither is still used pretty much every chance it's up because you need the HD stacks. Of course you try to maximize the output of Wither whenever it's reasonable because there's no reason to say no to extra damage.

 

I'm sorry but if someone did 400K and you did 200K, you in no way was competitive with that guy in DPS unless the guy who did 400K was a Sorc/Sniper, and even then it's very hard to do twice your DPS without accidentally doing anything useful. If you did 350K and you say that was more valuable, I don't necessarily believe you but since there is no play by play recap of what happened in a game I can take your word for it. But if you're under 300K (in the same game) you're not anywhere competitive against the Darkness Assassin that did 400K.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Astarica

[AMKSED]

I would be impressed if that was 500k single-target, meaningful damage that actually killed other key players, but we both know it wasn't.

 

You're right, 3-4K Projects and FiBs, 2K double strikes, and 6K channeled Telekinetic Throw is just terrible damage.

[MasterMaL]

been said before in the post but ill say it again, yes protection is very valuable but it shouldnt stop you from doing dmg or cc.

 

I play both rage and vengence jugg, and they both have their pros and cons.

 

You should always equip the dmg set ( tanking stats are terrible in pvp ) the only time it is usefull is when you are the flag carrier yourself.

 

W/e you spec for tank or dmg, if you have a taunt ability you should ALWAYS use it. Its very low cooldown and reduce the dmg the enemy does by 30% if not attacking you. That being said as a rage spec it is not worth it to go tank stance and guard someone unless in very specific moments. You lose too much.

 

As vengence (14/27/0) tanking stance and guard should always be up and clever uses of intercede and taunts will make your team almost invincible. BUT that shouldnt stop you from doing dmg and help your team kill the enemies.

 

TL;DR

 

Rage : 600k dmg 50k protection

Vengence 300k dmg 300k protection

 

Both usefull but doing one thing shouldnt stop you from doing the other.

Edited March 27, 2012 by MasterMaL

[Astarica]

You're right, 3-4K Projects and FiBs, 2K double strikes, and 6K channeled Telekinetic Throw is just terrible damage.

 

Um, using Wither is not padding, but feasting on Sorcs is padding your DPS. You'll never come anywhere close to these numbers against the mirror match, for example, and there are a ton of Darkness Assassins out there now. In my book, if you're an overpowered class it's your responsibilty to deal with the guys who are hard to kill (Marauders + mirror match), not just have a secret handshake with the enemy and see who can rack up the most numbers on Sorcerers who might as well be training dummies since this is a gross mismatch in favor of Darkness.

[Varicite]

Discharge isn't even a great attack to pad DPS due to its low damage + long cooldown.

 

Wither has a higher single target DPS/DPF than Thrash in other specs since the damage from the stack of HD generated eventually goes to a single person too.

 

So you're saying someone who uses an attack that is more DPS than Thrash on a single person is padding DPS? Then what do you call guys using Thrash?

 

Your single target DPS in Darkness comes from stacks of HD. If you don't generate HD stacks, you don't do single target DPS at all. This isn't like a Sorc or a Sniper who has to choose between focusing on one guy or just AEing. You must AE to be able to focus on one guy in the first place, and your AE hits a single guy harder than the staple single target rotation move in other specs anyway. Even in 1 on 1, Wither is still used pretty much every chance it's up because you need the HD stacks. Of course you try to maximize the output of Wither whenever it's reasonable because there's no reason to say no to extra damage.

 

I'm sorry but if someone did 400K and you did 200K, you in no way was competitive with that guy in DPS unless the guy who did 400K was a Sorc/Sniper, and even then it's very hard to do twice your DPS without accidentally doing anything useful. If you did 350K and you say that was more valuable, I don't necessarily believe you but since there is no play by play recap of what happened in a game I can take your word for it. But if you're under 300K (in the same game) you're not anywhere competitive against the Darkness Assassin that did 400K.

 

Why are you even talking about WHY Sins use Wither/Discharge? I know the reasons behind it (I also have a Darkness Sin I'm currently leveling); it doesn't change the fact that you are using 2 AoEs in your main rotation, and that everyone that they hit whom you aren't focusing is just free damage for the scoreboard.

 

No one was discussing why they are using AoE abilities, and I don't recall ever saying that anyone was going out of their way to pad their numbers, which is what you seem to think. I said that a Darkness tank putting up 500k on the scoreboard did so through a lot of AoE usage. It's a fact that you can't dispute. It's literally how the class is played if you're spec'd 31 into Darkness.

 

I generally do 350-400k~ damage w/ 20-40k~ protection as a dps spec (I don't use IGC, so I can't Guard players). I kill healers and tanks as my top priority; I know that most of my damage is going where it counts. Once a minute, I use DFA, and toss Explosive Dart on cd, so even I can't say that all of my damage is "meaningful".

 

I'm not offended by that statement, so I'm not really sure why you are.

[Inayat]

If tank and healer both know what they are doing.

Then you can easily hold a turret or defend a door for minutes.

Even against 4-5 people.

 

Watch how fast the enemy team, or even your own team, dies

after you taken out their healers.

 

Anyone saying protection is not important, is just plain dumb in my book.

 

And doesnt even need to be a healer, guard the dps that does insane dmg

when you find yourself duo where ever.

 

And he can survive long enough to turn the tide and make the encounter a win.

[Varicite]

You're right, 3-4K Projects and FiBs, 2K double strikes, and 6K channeled Telekinetic Throw is just terrible damage.

 

Again, I didn't say anything at all about it being terrible.

 

I just said that a lot of it was AoEs. I'm pretty sure FiB fits directly into that category, especially if you're using it on cd. The 2-3k that it crits for as a Darkness Sin isn't exactly what I would call "meaningful" damage.

 

The 3 stacked HD TKT that you pump into somebody, on the other hand, is.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Varicite

[Akiva_IC]

I can say that as a sorc healer, I love me some tank protection. That's been the only thing between me and death more times than I can count.

 

Win or lose and regardless of who did what, my MVP vote almost always goes to the guy who had guard on me or had the most protection overall.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Akiva_IC

[DaTick]

People always appreciate protection when your helping them survive/win the game, but it is the most forgotten stat once the match ends & you hit MVP voting time.

 

for instance I can rock about 150K damage & 30-140K protection plus be in the top 3 for medals on both teams & get no votes while the guy with 230K damage, no healing, and a few more kills gets 2-3 votes.

 

BTW this wasn't meant to "toot my own horn" merely to illustrat that while everyone here talks about how important it is not many out there show it.

 

Remember that you get what you pay for & in PVP MVP votes is the best way to encourage a desired performance.

[shadowflit]

This thread seems to have taken a turn in another direction, but I wanted to toss my healer's thanks at tanks too. I 100% notice if I have guard on me. Taunts are harder to notice, but good tanks keep me up better, so I assume that's taunting's effect.

 

The only thing to keep in mind is that if you throw guard on me midfight, I might not notice who you are. My heal priority mostly starts with myself, and if you're guarding me you get thrown into the same "self" bucket. If I don't know who you are, you'll probably get lost within all the other health bars going down.

[Agooz]

I can say that as a sorc healer, I love me some tank protection. That's been the only thing between me and death more times than I can count.

 

Win or lose and regardless of who did what, my MVP vote almost always goes to the guy who had guard on me or had the most protection overall.

 

I am a deep Pyro, I can sometimes crank over 600k with 30-40k protection. My vote NEVER goes to a dps on the scorecard. I look at heals and tanks to see who contributed the most.

[trakata]

On my server, MVP votes usually go to teammates people queue with. For the rest, of people 99% of them go to highest healing. That said, I play a shadow tank and I throw out a lot of protection, and I do tend to get MVP votes when I solo or duo defend nodes on Alderaan and Voidstar. Edited March 27, 2012 by trakata

[Ch_Zero]

Protection isn't important?

 

they a fresh 50 or what?

 

 

 

Tanks are very important in any warzone...

 

 

Guard is an amazing ability.

 

 

Please use it people! you will win games!

[Ahhmyface]

Again, I didn't say anything at all about it being terrible.

 

I just said that a lot of it was AoEs. I'm pretty sure FiB fits directly into that category, especially if you're using it on cd. The 2-3k that it crits for as a Darkness Sin isn't exactly what I would call "meaningful" damage.

 

The 3 stacked HD TKT that you pump into somebody, on the other hand, is.

 

What really amused me about your discussion is that he's just trolling, trying to get darkness assassins nerfed, and you don't even know that, and you still tell him the same thing as everybody else. Damage scoreboard is a joke. Hilarious.