SWTOR. Too much theme park?

[Goretzu]

Best joke i´ve read in a long time.

Lemme´see...

Jump to Lightspeed vs. Starfox railshooter

Open world vs. linear map-hopping

 

Anymore questions? Simply by concept, SWG embraced the spirit of SW by tailoring a concept that fits to the IP .

 

If they had added updated graphics, flashpoints and voiceacted class story like BW did, it would have been perfect. But no, BW needed to copy WoW concept instead and downsize the SW universe to fit in an instanced shoebox. Someone was not smart enough to do a hybrid of both concepts, taking the best of both worlds as a base and then add own ideas.

 

 

 

As I've said many times, if you has an MMORPG that contained the best bits of SWG and SWTOR (and got rid of the worst bits of both), you'd have an astounding game.

 

SWTOR does over use instances (everyone has since EQ1 invented them, and WoW used them like confetti), in some cases they are good, in others bad (orbital stations), but when you add them to corridor levelling designs it makes it the most closed in feeling MMORPG in history (IMO).

[Goretzu]

Are you saying there is something coming in 1.2 that will make it actually ANTI-sand-boxy? Because less than ZERO (which is where it stands now on the sandbox meter) is actually negative.

 

Well the only sand-boxy element it has is being mothballed. YMMV.

[Devlonir]

Ilum currently has an RvR basin with two faction open world PvP and factional objectives to capture - THAT IS RvR!

 

You are not right because you have the final word.

 

The factional objectives you capture have no impact on the game outside the specific area itself. It is therefore only Open World PVP and not RvR. It is merely a Warzone that is part of a planet.

[KennethHoover]

It is very themepart and very linear. That much is true.

 

As for myself I enjoy sandbox games. SWTOR isn't sandbox, but I would like to see a planet in the future that is something less than a rollercoaster.

 

I like this game a lot, but it is very linear and I guess that's not going to change.

[Jhayden]

with all the planets in this game. it would be nice to have them add more sandbox elements to it.

 

1. random events

2. planetary control in some form

3. parties

 

give us some reason to go to other planets. once you hit 50... i honestly never go to any of the old planets anymore.

[Jhayden]

Yes. I think they should add some more open planets and open space for pvp'ing exploring or pve'ing in. I do like the planets And i think they worked great for leveling. But end game needs to be more open and We need more reasons to go back to the other planets too. Imo.

 

i feel like the planets need to have some sort of reusable focus to the endgame.. Give us reason to come back to them and congregate there. All these planets and there is hardly ever anyone on them.

[TheOnlyKyrenS]

i feel like the planets need to have some sort of reusable focus to the endgame.. Give us reason to come back to them and congregate there. All these planets and there is hardly ever anyone on them.

 

Belsalvis has dailies and Corellia is getting in 1.2.

[KennethHoover]

with all the planets in this game. it would be nice to have them add more sandbox elements to it.

 

1. random events

2. planetary control in some form

3. parties

 

give us some reason to go to other planets. once you hit 50... i honestly never go to any of the old planets anymore.

 

 

 

I like this idea a lot. I hope it's something they consider down the road.

[mattgyver]

True. Adding Sandbox style content will not hurt. But if the game is not designed to have Sandbox elements, adding them makes the entire endeavor unsatisfying. If Bioware were to add stuff such as housing and free roaming and the like as the game is now, it would be a complete train wreck as you put it "the champions of the status quo" would object and you "sandboxers"would find the content to feel awkward and forced. It'd take time and subtle retooling to do so. It'd require adding the sandbox in bit by bit, to see where the Themepark should end and the sandbox to begin and how much of content should each side get and if there is enough space or resources for both that makes each side feel happy with feeling like they are being cheated out of certain aspects that they have come to expect from their respective games.

 

you have a good point, the implementation would be everything. I guess any content could be preseneted prematurely, but I agree that this would be problematic. It would need to be a situation where sandbox elements are added, but not at the expense of the existing strengths of the game.

[mattgyver]

Actually.. I said this before, but exploration and free roaming (the things that both JTL and Open Worlds succeed in) are actually not part of the Star Wars IP at all. Star Trek is all about Exploration, the major Star Wars theme is actually a battle of good vs evil in a heavilly defined, pre-explored and bureaucratic universe.

 

Now, an MMO needs an open world feel to some extend to give the feeling of a living, breathing world, I agree with that. But to say free roaming is and important part of the Star Wars IP is ridicilous and factually wrong.

 

You are correct. However, the movies (and any other material patterned after the style of the movies) are fast paced, do not typically have much exposition, and show you environments very quickly before moving on. In an MMO you live in those spaces for long periods of time so that approach does not work.

 

The space game in SWTOR is very congruent with the movies, but it also does not work as well for MMO players because the scene becomes old too fast (not enough variation, etc.)

 

There really wasn't any exploration to JTL, there was just an illusion of open space (like the worlds of SWG) but this actually worked as a multiplier for the devs. They got way more mileage out of those big open spaces than SWTOR is getting out of its handcrafted but smaller spaces.

 

A star wars IP can't be totally true to the feel of the movies because of the huge amount of time you spend in the game universe.

[Sagimore]

Its needs to be opened up a lot. I realized coming in it wasn't a sandbox. I loved UO as a sandbox, but that was my first game. I hated SWG and it was sandbox. I don't mind them park, but this is a roller coaster- The planets are just mazes, you pretty much can only get from A - Z one way on a map. There really needs to be less walls in the game.

The story is great, I enjoy combat. It just needs a lot of touch added to make it feel alive and make us feel less boxed in everywhere we go-I'm not sure they can do that with the way the game is set up.

[mattgyver]

There are just too many constructive complaints about the linear nature of the game for it to be a matter of perception. I realize there may be a silent majority out there happily plugging away but the number of posts on this topic tells me this is an issue for a portion of the population.

[Devlonir]

You are correct. However, the movies (and any other material patterned after the style of the movies) are fast paced, do not typically have much exposition, and show you environments very quickly before moving on. In an MMO you live in those spaces for long periods of time so that approach does not work.

 

The space game in SWTOR is very congruent with the movies, but it also does not work as well for MMO players because the scene becomes old too fast (not enough variation, etc.)

 

There really wasn't any exploration to JTL, there was just an illusion of open space (like the worlds of SWG) but this actually worked as a multiplier for the devs. They got way more mileage out of those big open spaces than SWTOR is getting out of its handcrafted but smaller spaces.

 

A star wars IP can't be totally true to the feel of the movies because of the huge amount of time you spend in the game universe.

 

I agree, there is a balance between what the IP actually shows and what is needed to involve people in the MMO world they 'live' in.

 

I personally enjoy the fact that the game makes shortcuts to make the world less massive, but more inclusive and action packed. The movies have that same feel of dialogue sometimes being nothing more than an introduction to the next action scene, and this game captures that aspect 100%.

 

I am not saying I want the illusion of a bigger world though, I prefer the current implementation because of the possibility of expansion. Because each planet is very limited in size and the way you travel is pre-defined, this game actually has options other MMO's have not. They can add more content to current planets without being limited by the smaller world they created. As you will see in 1.2 with the new Corellia daily quest area. The choice actually has endless potential because each planet can be continued to be built upon in the future without being limited by earlier bariers on size.

 

WoW had this problem, because it's main continents were pre-defined. They used the excuse of a dragon ripping up the world to finally fill in the gaps, but now each expansion has to be a different world or continent from now on. TOR can continue on the current themes and keep adding more and more zones to existing planets. This is a good decision in the long run, even if it makes you feel spoon fed and limited at the start.

[mattgyver]

I agree, there is a balance between what the IP actually shows and what is needed to involve people in the MMO world they 'live' in.

 

I personally enjoy the fact that the game makes shortcuts to make the world less massive, but more inclusive and action packed. The movies have that same feel of dialogue sometimes being nothing more than an introduction to the next action scene, and this game captures that aspect 100%.

 

I am not saying I want the illusion of a bigger world though, I prefer the current implementation because of the possibility of expansion. Because each planet is very limited in size and the way you travel is pre-defined, this game actually has options other MMO's have not. They can add more content to current planets without being limited by the smaller world they created. As you will see in 1.2 with the new Corellia daily quest area. The choice actually has endless potential because each planet can be continued to be built upon in the future without being limited by earlier bariers on size.

 

WoW had this problem, because it's main continents were pre-defined. They used the excuse of a dragon ripping up the world to finally fill in the gaps, but now each expansion has to be a different world or continent from now on. TOR can continue on the current themes and keep adding more and more zones to existing planets. This is a good decision in the long run, even if it makes you feel spoon fed and limited at the start.

 

You are probably right. If they re-visit the original worlds at all, there will just be a new speeder that takes you through the exhaustion zone to the new plot of land.

[kevlarto]

You don't have freedom, SWTOR is not for everyone obviously. It sucks but there are all sorts of games out there that look cool but when you start playing them a person realizes "this game isn't what I was looking for" ....

 

 

 

I am still enjoying it though which tells me, the game is the type I like =)

 

so true, as gamer I bet almost eveyone in these forums have a stack of boxes or digital down loads sitting around that they thought they would like, thats why I never listen to reviews or read stupid blogs by some pimple faced kid that never gets any sun, I have bought games that got really good reviews and they sucked, then I have bought games that got less than stellar reviews and I loved them, now I buy games by what I like, the theme or genre, or the devolper.

[Goretzu]

You are not right because you have the final word.

 

The factional objectives you capture have no impact on the game outside the specific area itself. It is therefore only Open World PVP and not RvR. It is merely a Warzone that is part of a planet.

 

No, I'm right because I'm right.

 

You can keep changing your definition all you want it's not going to help you when you're wrong; RvR doesn't have to affect the whole game to be RvR - Please show me where is says it does?

 

 

 

RvR is simply factional PvP with goals, usually non-instanced, but not always.

 

Ilum's RvR basin is an RvR zone (such as it is).

 

By your very strange "definition" vanilla DAoC wasn't RvR, and Warhammer Online wasn't really either! :D

Are you really claiming DAoC the game that created the term RvR wasn't RvR?

Edited March 28, 2012 by Goretzu

[WillRN]

Its a shame there aren't more planets like tatooine... Really enjoyed the openness of that one.

[Jenzali]

"Sandbox" is one of those buzz words that people throw around like it's the next coming of Jesus, when the truth is they're not even interested in exploration or RP. People will still rush to 50 in a week, do nothing but stand around in the Fleet and complain there's nothing to do. Edited March 28, 2012 by Jenzali

[Goretzu]

"Sandbox" is one of those buzz words that people throw around like it's the next coming of Jesus, when the truth is they're not even interested in exploration or RP. People will still rush to 50 in a week, do nothing but stand around in the Fleet and complain there's nothing to do.

 

There's no such thing as sandbox or themepark IMO, they are just lazy terminology that don't really fit.

 

But still the really successful MMORPGs of the future will have a mix of both types of feature.

 

Copying WoW has never been a success, eventually MMORPG Devs and executive will realise that too.

[Devlonir]

No, I'm right because I'm right.

 

You can keep changing your definition all you want it's not going to help you when you're wrong; RvR doesn't have to affect the whole game to be RvR - Please show me where is says it does?

 

Okay

 

"Realm versus Realm (RvR) is a type of Player versus Player gameplay in Massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPG) where the player base is divided over multiple preset realms that fight each other over game assets" (emphasis mine)

 

There are no game assets that are being fought over, just a system that rewards specific people for their own efforts. No true assets to be gained, kept and defended. The bases in Ilum are merely the mechanic of the area to create places to fight over, but have no impact outside the PVP battle themselves.

 

Heck, WoW World PVP was more RvR than Ilum. At least the controlling faction gets an area-wide buff in WoW.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Devlonir

[Leandrid]

The problem with nearly all MMOs nowadays is, that they catered to the casual gamers, not to the "hardcore" ones. All devs of those MMOs listened to the whining of the casual gamer, that the game is too difficult, that it takes too long to achieve this or that, etc.

 

And that's the culprit. Now in all those games anything can be achieved in a couple of weeks or months by any player with half a brain. The hardcore ones burn through the content at a much faster pace. So after those said couple of months nearly ALL players get bored, except for the really hardcore casual gamers (see what I did there?) and the whining begins, because the devs can't keep up with pumping new content into the game.

 

It is time for the players and the future devs to face it and get back to what made those games as fun again as they used to be back in the days. The main motivation is to develop your character(s) and the carrot shouldn't be eaten in mere weeks. In fact it probably shouldn't get eaten at all. IMHO it is time to get back to having to work for achieving something in the MMO of your choice instead of begging for it like little children at Christmas eve. At least for me this is where the fun was.

[Goretzu]

Okay

 

"Realm versus Realm (RvR) is a type of Player versus Player gameplay in Massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPG) where the player base is divided over multiple preset realms that fight each other over game assets" (emphasis mine)

 

There are no game assets that are being fought over, just a system that rewards specific people for their own efforts. No true assets to be gained, kept and defended. The bases in Ilum are merely the mechanic of the area to create places to fight over, but have no impact outside the PVP battle themselves.

 

Heck, WoW World PVP was more RvR than Ilum. At least the controlling faction gets an area-wide buff in WoW.

 

 

Yup and the game assest in Ilum are there (at the moment) as the points to capture (I agree that Ilum RvR is rubbish, but that doesn't not make it RvR, just rubbish).

 

That is RvR, I don't know why you resist the plainly obvious.

 

What exactly would you class as a "game asset" if not points to capture/hold?

 

 

 

Do you think Warhammer online had no RvR in it? Because according to your definition it didn't really for over 3 years (neither did vanilla DAoC).

 

So again what do you mean exactly by "game assets", if not points to fight over capture and hold?

Edited March 29, 2012 by Goretzu

[dazednconfuzed]

open world PvP..

 

Even open world PvP is theme parked. On a PvE server, if you want to take part in open world PvP, you need to go to the designated areas.

 

That is very much theme parked... If you want to go on this ride, you have to go over here.

[Devlonir]

Yup and the game assest in Ilum are there (at the moment) as the points to capture (I agree that Ilum RvR is rubbish, but that doesn't not make it RvR, just rubbish).

 

That is RvR, I don't know why you resist the plainly obvious.

 

What exactly would you class as a "game asset" if not points to capture/hold?

 

 

Do you think Warhammer online had no RvR in it? Because according to your definition it didn't really for over 3 years (neither did vanilla DAoC).

 

So again what do you mean exactly by "game assets", if not points to fight over capture and hold?

 

Alright, it seems I misunderstood the original RvR concept to be something different than what it was. That's what you get for commenting on what DAoC was without actually playing it, I apologize. I never actually played either game but was interested in the RvR concept and it's possibilities. I was always under the impression there was more to it than that. Guess I'm glad now I never tried the games, considering RvR actually IS just a fancy name for objective based open world PVP between factions with no changes to the gameworld despite the results.

 

Still, what little Ilum is and how unimportant it is for SWTOR gameplay and story do give me the idea that unlike Warhammer Online, RvR was not something pretty high on Bioware's list of priorities and I think we can both agree it barely classifies as RvR. Especially considering the true potential of RvR is a lot more than an open world Warzone free for all between factions.

 

Personally, I don't really miss it either, but that is just personal taste I must admit. I aoologize for the miscommunication. At least I now took the time to really investigate the concept..

[Goretzu]

Alright, it seems I misunderstood the original RvR concept to be something different than what it was. That's what you get for commenting on what DAoC was without actually playing it, I apologize. I never actually played either game but was interested in the RvR concept and it's possibilities. I was always under the impression there was more to it than that. Guess I'm glad now I never tried the games, considering RvR actually IS just a fancy name for objective based open world PVP between factions with no changes to the gameworld despite the results.

 

Still, what little Ilum is and how unimportant it is for SWTOR gameplay and story do give me the idea that unlike Warhammer Online, RvR was not something pretty high on Bioware's list of priorities and I think we can both agree it barely classifies as RvR. Especially considering the true potential of RvR is a lot more than an open world Warzone free for all between factions.

 

Personally, I don't really miss it either, but that is just personal taste I must admit. I aoologize for the miscommunication. At least I now took the time to really investigate the concept..

 

 

It is totally rubbish RvR (probably the worst I've seen), which is what Bioware have admitted themselves in their reason for mothballing it, which is surprising considering Bioware have Mythic Devs and have run WAR themselves for more than 24 months now.

 

But it is possibly to have a decent single RvR zone, even Lotro had an ok one.

 

GW2 looks to build upon the DAoC orginal concept, with a massive RvR zone with 3 different servers fighting to take over it, when one side wins it goes on to fight 2 other winning servers, which sounds like a genuine advancement over DAoC/Planetside/WAR.

 

Other than that it's Planetside 2.

 

But I'd still hope Bioware have the capability to put something RvR-like back into SWTOR, even if it's only a big instanced thing like Alterac Valley.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Goretzu